usmbguest5318
Gold Member
Thread Debate Topic/Assertions:
In this thread, posters present arguments for one of the two following positions:
As this is the SDF, it goes without saying that Zone 2 Rules are in effect, so if you cannot follow those rules and the following ones, don't post.
I will argue for the following:
Introduction
Donald Trump says and does all sorts of things that are highly irrational. The man denies or continues(-ed) to question things that were handily shown to be so so. He's attested to things that are clearly shown not to be so. I'm not talking about minor errors or missteps that anyone might make once, be corrected and not make again. I'm not going to give him grief over things like that. I'm talking about things that only people who are losing their cognitive faculties or who have a mental disorder do.
Let me be clear also. This isn't about whether he's smart or not. Having Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), which is a mental/personality disorder, and being intelligent or not aren't the same things. One can be quite bright and still have NPD.
What is NPD and why is it a problem for a president to have it?
But what is a personality disorder, NPD specifically? It's not being what a layman might call "straight-jacket" crazy, not able to function or what we'd call incompetent. It, NPD in particular, is a pattern of deviant or abnormal behavior that the person doesn’t change, even though it causes emotional upsets and trouble with other people at work and in personal relationships. It is not limited to episodes of mental illness, and it is not caused by drug or alcohol use, head injury, or illness. There are about a dozen different behavior patterns classified as personality disorders by DSM. All the personality disorders show up as deviations from normal in one or more of the following:
Narcissists are a danger to others because they are in complete denial of reality and they lack empathy. One of the key presenting traits of narcissists is their utter incapability to empathize, which can manifest itself in a variety of ways:
The Case for Trump Having Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD)
First of all, several experts -- psychiatrists and psychologists -- have attested to their conviction that Trump exhibits the signs of NPD. They haven't personally examined him, so they can't completely conclude on their attestation. That said, that they have in in such great numbers made the claim and stipulated that Trump be examined formally is telling. Here's their statement:
That's a strange restriction, yet ironically and hypocritically, given all their haranguing about free speech and whatnot, it's one Trump supporters adopt.
You wouldn't expect cardiologists to keep mum about symptoms, causes and/or manifestations of broken bones, heart disease or cancer, would you? Attorneys, accountants, economists, engineers, scientists, and scores of other professionals offer limited opinions about matters pertinent to their disciplines. Even plumbers and auto mechanics and and will make educated predictions about what might be the cause of behaviors your car or toilet exhibits. The statements coming from mental health professionals are no different. They are experts on mental health remarking upon what they see.
The doctors noted above aren't the only mental health professionals, to say nothing of their all being highly regarded ones -- we're not talking armchair psychologists -- who've expressed concerned.
NPD is manifest by consistently displaying any five of eight behaviors. Those behaviors are presented below as first "bullet level" items, and examples of those behaviors are shown at lower levels.
That Trump exhibits the signs of NPD is quite clear. What's important is what to do about it, both now and with regard to Trump as well as going forward and regarding future Presidents. The first thing that needs to be done to put the matter to bed to have Trump undergo a legitimate evaluation by independent examiners. Maybe he doesn't have NPD, but it sure looks like it. If it turns out he does have NPD, the what is the country to do about it? Do we just ignore it? Do we implore Congress to apply the 25th Amendment? If the man's ill, the country needs to do something besides just let him run the nation with his disorder running at full tilt.
Looking at this matter going forward, I think it's clear we need an amendment or general law that requires Presidents-Elect or candidates and sitting Presidents to undergo annual mental evaluations, just as they get annual physicals, and have the results be disclosed to the public. Voters have a right to know the president is in good physical and mental health. (Looking at photos of Trump's lardass, it's not even certain the man is in good physical health.)
In this thread, posters present arguments for one of the two following positions:
- Donald Trump appears to have NPD, dementia or another mental disorder/shortcoming (If not dementia or NPD, identify the disorder/shortcoming.).
- Donald Trump does not appear to have NPD, dementia or any other mental shortcoming.
As this is the SDF, it goes without saying that Zone 2 Rules are in effect, so if you cannot follow those rules and the following ones, don't post.
- You must either expound upon the argument presented in the OP or you must present a fully developed argument (nor a claim that's not supported with an argument) of your own (or expound upon someone else's fully developed argument) to refute the following assertion:
- Donald Trump does not appear to have NPD, dementia or any other mental shortcoming.
- Arguments made for the OP's assertion or for the counter assertion noted above must be presented only with regard to the nature and extent to which they apply to Donald Trump and the extent to which his behaviors and comments do or do not indicate there is a reasonable chance he has NPD. The behaviors and words of other individuals vis a vis whether they exhibit signs of NPD are not eligible for introduction in this thread. This thread is not about how anyone else behaves or whether anyone else seems to suffer from NPD. Those people are not the current President of the United States.
- You may not make brief unsubstantiated assertions. You must credible references that literally and contextually support your claims. That means if someone checks your references, they must be found to have taken things out of context, where appropriate have documented methodologies and you can only cite specific quotes Trump made and/or expert opinion. You cannot cite editorial opinion offered by non-mental health professionals.
As you might glean, this thread is not for people who just want to toss out their or another's partisan and half-baked opinion and be done. It is a thread for people who have a point of view and who've done the research to back it up with solid evidence -- inductive or deductive. It's a thread for people who have something of substance to say and are willing to take the time to present strong cases for them. You don't necessarily have to agree with the central assertion you choose to defend. You just need to put together a strong essay in support of it. You are free to make brief and/or clarifying comments in support of the counter-argument after you've presented your well developed argumentative essay.
I will argue for the following:
- Donald Trump appears to have NPD, dementia or another mental disorder/shortcoming (If not dementia or NPD, identify the disorder/shortcoming.).
Introduction
Donald Trump says and does all sorts of things that are highly irrational. The man denies or continues(-ed) to question things that were handily shown to be so so. He's attested to things that are clearly shown not to be so. I'm not talking about minor errors or missteps that anyone might make once, be corrected and not make again. I'm not going to give him grief over things like that. I'm talking about things that only people who are losing their cognitive faculties or who have a mental disorder do.
Let me be clear also. This isn't about whether he's smart or not. Having Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), which is a mental/personality disorder, and being intelligent or not aren't the same things. One can be quite bright and still have NPD.
What is NPD and why is it a problem for a president to have it?
But what is a personality disorder, NPD specifically? It's not being what a layman might call "straight-jacket" crazy, not able to function or what we'd call incompetent. It, NPD in particular, is a pattern of deviant or abnormal behavior that the person doesn’t change, even though it causes emotional upsets and trouble with other people at work and in personal relationships. It is not limited to episodes of mental illness, and it is not caused by drug or alcohol use, head injury, or illness. There are about a dozen different behavior patterns classified as personality disorders by DSM. All the personality disorders show up as deviations from normal in one or more of the following:
- Cognition (i.e. perception, thinking, and interpretation of oneself, other people, and events);
- Affectivity (i.e. emotional responses);
- Interpersonal functions; and
- Impulsivity.
Narcissists are a danger to others because they are in complete denial of reality and they lack empathy. One of the key presenting traits of narcissists is their utter incapability to empathize, which can manifest itself in a variety of ways:
- Ignoring requests to cease behavior (such as cheating and lying).
- Name calling, criticizing, belittling, mean “jokes”, jabs and put downs (verbal abuse).
- Arguments surrounding the same issues over and over.
- Turning around a partner’s concerns to blame him/her and block the conversation.
- No closure - no apologies, no accountability, no consequences, no change.
- Narcissists are capable of inflicting physical and psychological harm on others and are unmoved by the plight of those they hurt.
- The Dark Triad of personality: Narcissism, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy
- Narcissism and Comparative Self-Enhancement Strategies
- What Is Narcissistic Personality Disorder? Lay Theories of Narcissism
- Interpersonal Analysis of Grandiose and Vulnerable Narcissism
- An Analysis of the Self: A Systematic Approach to the Psychoanalytic Treatment of Narcissistic Personality Disorder -- From reading the other documents, it's not clear to me that the disorder is treatable, but these authors seem to think it is.
- Narcissism and Childhood Recollections: A Quantitative Test of Psychoanalytic Predictions
The Case for Trump Having Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD)
First of all, several experts -- psychiatrists and psychologists -- have attested to their conviction that Trump exhibits the signs of NPD. They haven't personally examined him, so they can't completely conclude on their attestation. That said, that they have in in such great numbers made the claim and stipulated that Trump be examined formally is telling. Here's their statement:
We are writing to express our grave concern regarding the mental stability of our President-Elect. Professional standards do not permit us to venture a diagnosis for a public figure whom we have not evaluated personally. Nevertheless, his widely reported symptoms of mental instability — including grandiosity, impulsivity, hypersensitivity to slights or criticism, and an apparent inability to distinguish between fantasy and reality — lead us to question his fitness for the immense responsibilities of the office. We strongly recommend that, in preparation for assuming these responsibilities, he receive a full medical and neuropsychiatric evaluation by an impartial team of investigators.
The statement was made by:
- Judith Herman, M.D.
Professor of Psychiatry, Harvard Medical School - Nanette Gartrell, M.D.
Associate Clinical Professor of Psychiatry, University of California, San Francisco (1988-2011)
Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, Harvard Medical School (1983-87) - Dee Mosbacher, M.D., Ph.D.
Assistant Clinical Professor Department of Community Health Systems, University of California, San Francisco (2005-2013)
That's a strange restriction, yet ironically and hypocritically, given all their haranguing about free speech and whatnot, it's one Trump supporters adopt.
You wouldn't expect cardiologists to keep mum about symptoms, causes and/or manifestations of broken bones, heart disease or cancer, would you? Attorneys, accountants, economists, engineers, scientists, and scores of other professionals offer limited opinions about matters pertinent to their disciplines. Even plumbers and auto mechanics and and will make educated predictions about what might be the cause of behaviors your car or toilet exhibits. The statements coming from mental health professionals are no different. They are experts on mental health remarking upon what they see.
The doctors noted above aren't the only mental health professionals, to say nothing of their all being highly regarded ones -- we're not talking armchair psychologists -- who've expressed concerned.
May 2016
31-Jan-2017
27-Jan-2017 -- Temperament Tantrum: Some say President Donald Trump's personality isn't just flawed, it's dangerous.
John D. Gartner, a practicing psychotherapist who taught psychiatric residents at Johns Hopkins University Medical School, minces as few words as the president in his professional assessment of Trump.
"Donald Trump is dangerously mentally ill and temperamentally incapable of being president," says Gartner, author of "In Search of Bill Clinton: A Psychological Biography." Trump, Gartner says, has "malignant narcissism," which is different from narcissistic personality disorder and which is incurable.
Gartner acknowledges that he has not personally examined Trump, but says it's obvious from Trump's behavior that he meets the diagnostic criteria for the disorder, which include anti-social behavior, sadism, aggressiveness, paranoia and grandiosity. Trump's personality disorder (which includes hypomania) is also displayed through a lack of impulse control and empathy, and "a feeling that people ... don't recognize their greatness.
"We've seen enough public behavior by Donald Trump now that we can make this diagnosis indisputably," says Gartner. His comments run afoul of the so-called Goldwater Rule, the informal term for part of the ethics code of the American Psychiatric Association saying it is wrong to provide a professional opinion of a public figure without examining that person and gaining consent to discuss the evaluation. But Gartner says the Trump case warrants breaking that ethical code.
A Quinnipiac University poll earlier this month, for example, showed that Trump's popularity had dropped, unusually, during the transition, with the president losing ground on matters such as his perceived intelligence, honesty and leadership. In November, 57 percent said Trump is not "level-headed;" the poll by the Connecticut school in January had the not-level-headed number at 62 percent. Further, by a two-to-one margin, Americans said Trump needs to close his Twitter account, which has served as the president's primary way of rallying his base.
"It worked to his advantage but when people are saying they're fed up with it, maybe it's starting to be a minus," says Tim Malloy, assistant director of the poll.
Some of the hypomanic characteristics Gartner says Trump also possesses are also, paradoxically, the very qualities that "made America great," the psychotherapist says. The creativity, confidence and out-of-the-box thinking, is what has driven the nation's most successful entrepreneurs, says Gartner, who has also authored the book "The Hypomanic Edge: The Link Between (A Little) Craziness and (A Lot of) Success in America."
31-Jan-2017
27-Jan-2017 -- Temperament Tantrum: Some say President Donald Trump's personality isn't just flawed, it's dangerous.
John D. Gartner, a practicing psychotherapist who taught psychiatric residents at Johns Hopkins University Medical School, minces as few words as the president in his professional assessment of Trump.
"Donald Trump is dangerously mentally ill and temperamentally incapable of being president," says Gartner, author of "In Search of Bill Clinton: A Psychological Biography." Trump, Gartner says, has "malignant narcissism," which is different from narcissistic personality disorder and which is incurable.
Gartner acknowledges that he has not personally examined Trump, but says it's obvious from Trump's behavior that he meets the diagnostic criteria for the disorder, which include anti-social behavior, sadism, aggressiveness, paranoia and grandiosity. Trump's personality disorder (which includes hypomania) is also displayed through a lack of impulse control and empathy, and "a feeling that people ... don't recognize their greatness.
"We've seen enough public behavior by Donald Trump now that we can make this diagnosis indisputably," says Gartner. His comments run afoul of the so-called Goldwater Rule, the informal term for part of the ethics code of the American Psychiatric Association saying it is wrong to provide a professional opinion of a public figure without examining that person and gaining consent to discuss the evaluation. But Gartner says the Trump case warrants breaking that ethical code.
A Quinnipiac University poll earlier this month, for example, showed that Trump's popularity had dropped, unusually, during the transition, with the president losing ground on matters such as his perceived intelligence, honesty and leadership. In November, 57 percent said Trump is not "level-headed;" the poll by the Connecticut school in January had the not-level-headed number at 62 percent. Further, by a two-to-one margin, Americans said Trump needs to close his Twitter account, which has served as the president's primary way of rallying his base.
"It worked to his advantage but when people are saying they're fed up with it, maybe it's starting to be a minus," says Tim Malloy, assistant director of the poll.
Some of the hypomanic characteristics Gartner says Trump also possesses are also, paradoxically, the very qualities that "made America great," the psychotherapist says. The creativity, confidence and out-of-the-box thinking, is what has driven the nation's most successful entrepreneurs, says Gartner, who has also authored the book "The Hypomanic Edge: The Link Between (A Little) Craziness and (A Lot of) Success in America."
NPD is manifest by consistently displaying any five of eight behaviors. Those behaviors are presented below as first "bullet level" items, and examples of those behaviors are shown at lower levels.
- Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
- Trump: "I alone can fix it."
- Claimed to know Putin, but he did not then nor does he now. In fact, his attestations over time go from knowing Putin "very well" to not knowing "who Putin is."
- 2015 Radio Interview: (Hear the interview here.)
Michael Savage: "Have you ever met Vladimir Putin?"
Trump: "Yes." - Republican Debate: "I got to know him very well because we were both on 60 Minutes."
- July 2016: "I never met Putin. I don't know who Putin is."
- 2015 Radio Interview: (Hear the interview here.)
- His entire business career appears focused on creating the impression that this is one successful, brilliant, power guy. But he’s actually been a pretty mediocre businessman according to most yardsticks. (See also: Donald Trump’s business failings, explained)
- "Everything" he says he's done or will do is "fantastic," "great," "the biggest," "the best ever," he knows more than anyone else, etc. Everything with him is presented as a superlative.
- “40 Wall Street… was the tallest, and then, when they built the World Trade Center, it became known as the second-tallest. And now it’s the tallest.”
- Trump: "Nobody has more respect for women than I do." (See also: (Almost) Every Sexist Thing Donald Trump Has Said | Care2 Causes)
- Trump: “I have the best temperament or certainly one of the best temperaments of anybody that’s ever run for the office of president. Ever.”
- Trump: “Look, I know more about renewables than any human being on earth.”
- Trump: “I’m the best thing that’s ever happened to the Secret Service.”
- Trump: “I will be the greatest jobs president God ever created.”
- Not if he implements his proposed plans from the campaign.
- Trump: “I write a book called The Art of the Deal, the #1 selling business book of all time.”
- Trump: “Peace all over the world would be the best deal. And I think I would know how to do that better than anybody else.”
- Trump: "I know more about Cory [Booker] than he knows about himself.”
- Trump: “40 Wall Street… was the tallest, and then, when they built the World Trade Center, it became known as the second-tallest. And now it’s the tallest.”
- That boast wasn't even accurate. The building at 70 Pine was taller. (See also: 70 Pine - The Skyscraper Center and The Trump Building - The Skyscraper Center)
- Trump: "Nobody reads the Bible more than me.”
- Move over, pastors – your religious devotion is secondary to that of Trump, who most definitely was not trying to pander to Evangelical voters with this proclamation. Except that, when pressed, Trump could not name his favorite Bible verse or state a preference between the Old and New Testament, so he must not be giving the Bible a close read.
- 'Two Corinthians': Donald Trump bungles biblical reference during speech at Christian school
- Trump: “I know more about foreign policy than anybody running.”
- Trump: "I think nobody knows more about taxes than I do, maybe in the history of the world. Nobody knows more about taxes."
- Trump: "I know words; I have the best words"
- Trump: "I alone can fix it."
- Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love.
- Trump: "We had a massive landslide victory, as you know, in the Electoral College." Thinks he won the electoral college by a landslide. He won it. He didn't win by a landslide. 56% does not a landslide make, much less a "massive" one as he claimed on Fox with Chris Wallace.
Donald Trump Fox News Sunday FULL Interview 12/11/16
- His entire business career appears focused on creating the impression that this is one successful, brilliant, power guy. But he’s actually been a pretty mediocre businessman according to most yardsticks. (See also: Donald Trump’s business failings, explained)
- Trump:
- Trump: "I know more about ISIS than the generals."
- Trump: "We had a massive landslide victory, as you know, in the Electoral College." Thinks he won the electoral college by a landslide. He won it. He didn't win by a landslide. 56% does not a landslide make, much less a "massive" one as he claimed on Fox with Chris Wallace.
- Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with other special or high-status people (or institutions)
- Note: In the following video, it's not his affirmations of his being smart that I'm using as evidence of anything. I don't take exception with people saying they are smart or talented if they are, and I realize Trump is not profoundly dumb in a mental capacity sense (IQ below 100 or something of that nature.) As I noted at the outset of this post, and showed by reference to scholarly publications, NPD and intellect aren't connected. It's the eugenics thing that shows he thinks he's special.
https://youtube/3Yh0jAxOxGE
- Note: In the following video, it's not his affirmations of his being smart that I'm using as evidence of anything. I don't take exception with people saying they are smart or talented if they are, and I realize Trump is not profoundly dumb in a mental capacity sense (IQ below 100 or something of that nature.) As I noted at the outset of this post, and showed by reference to scholarly publications, NPD and intellect aren't connected. It's the eugenics thing that shows he thinks he's special.
- Requires excessive admiration
- When he was supposed to be eulogizing his father, he spoke more about himself than his father and described his father's greatest achievement as raising Donald. "Where others spoke of their memories of Fred Trump, [Donald] spoke of Fred Trump’s endorsement."
- "All of the women on The Apprentice flirted with me – consciously or unconsciously. That’s to be expected."
- Roxanne Brewer Lane (Trump had an affair with her) - 1990 - 1991: "He did ask me, on a scale of 1 to 10, what I thought about Marla [Maples]…He asked me the same about Ivana."
- Has a sense of entitlement
- Stated that he could grab women by the p*ssy.
- Walks into women's dressing rooms
- Cornered a reporter and said to her, "You know we’re going to have an affair, don’t you?...We’re going to have an affair, I’m telling you.
- "All of the women on The Apprentice flirted with me – consciously or unconsciously. That’s to be expected."
- "One of my ex-wives once said to me, ‘You have to work at a marriage.’ And I said, ‘That’s the most ridiculous thing.’”
- Is exploitative
- After 9/11, Donald Trump — not a “small business” — took advantage of $150,000 in government funds to help small businesses.
- "I’ll sue her because it would be fun. I look forward to suing Rosie. ‘I’m gonna sue her and I look forward to it."
- After 9/11, Donald Trump — not a “small business” — took advantage of $150,000 in government funds to help small businesses.
- Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
- When he was supposed to be eulogizing his father, he spoke more about himself than his father and described his father's greatest achievement as raising Donald. "Where others spoke of their memories of Fred Trump, [Donald] spoke of Fred Trump’s endorsement."
- Publicly attacked the parents of of a fallen soldier, people of who the only reason anyone even knows who they are is because their son died in action serving in the U.S. armed forces.
- Belittled POWs for being captured.
- Bragged about sexually assaulting women and getting away with it. (See also: 10 U.S. Code § 920 - Art. 120. Rape and sexual assault generally)
- "I think that putting a wife to work is a very dangerous thing. Unfortunately, after they're a star, the fun is over for me."
- Just minutes after the WTC fell, Trump says this: “40 Wall Street… was the tallest, and then, when they built the World Trade Center, it became known as the second-tallest. And now it’s the tallest.”
- Cited "an eye for an eye" as his favorite Bible passage.
- When he was supposed to be eulogizing his father, he spoke more about himself than his father and described his father's greatest achievement as raising Donald. "Where others spoke of their memories of Fred Trump, [Donald] spoke of Fred Trump’s endorsement."
- Is envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her.
- Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.
- President Donald Trump warned in a phone call with his Mexican counterpart that he was ready to send U.S. troops to stop "bad hombres down there" unless the Mexican military does more to control them, according to an excerpt of a transcript of the conversation obtained by The Associated Press.
- "Only I can fix it." (See above)
- "When I come home and dinner's not ready, I go through the roof."
- "I think that putting a wife to work is a very dangerous thing. Unfortunately, after they're a star, the fun is over for me."
- "I know more about Cory [Booker] than he knows about himself.”
- [See also the early discussion about superlatives. There's plenty of arrogance in there.
- "Of all the fellow celebrities you've met, which do you consider to be the most humble?" ME!"
That Trump exhibits the signs of NPD is quite clear. What's important is what to do about it, both now and with regard to Trump as well as going forward and regarding future Presidents. The first thing that needs to be done to put the matter to bed to have Trump undergo a legitimate evaluation by independent examiners. Maybe he doesn't have NPD, but it sure looks like it. If it turns out he does have NPD, the what is the country to do about it? Do we just ignore it? Do we implore Congress to apply the 25th Amendment? If the man's ill, the country needs to do something besides just let him run the nation with his disorder running at full tilt.
Looking at this matter going forward, I think it's clear we need an amendment or general law that requires Presidents-Elect or candidates and sitting Presidents to undergo annual mental evaluations, just as they get annual physicals, and have the results be disclosed to the public. Voters have a right to know the president is in good physical and mental health. (Looking at photos of Trump's lardass, it's not even certain the man is in good physical health.)
