If the US healthcare system is the best and socialism is the worst

[PoliticalChic]

Absolutely false.

List of countries by life expectancy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Based on life expectancy alone, the US ranks 36th.

If you correct for homicides and car accidents? Really? Because Japan ( the real #1, though the earthquake/tsunami/nuclear incident will most likely knock them out of that spot ) does have homicide or car accidents?

Or are you saying Americans are just far more reckless driving and far more murderous than the rest of the world do lets not count those deaths?

Either way, it doesnt paint a very good picture of us, does it?

What I am saying is that you have fallen victim to the anti-American propaganda.

Have you queried the sources for the link you provided?

So we have been told that the United States is listed at number 37 in world ranking for health care. Here is why only fools and America-bashers attribute any significance to this rating: WHO/UN states that their data “is hampered by the weakness of routine information systems and insufficient attention to research” and when they couldn’t find data, they “developed [data] through a variety of techniques.” WHO accepts whatever governments tell them, including reputable regimes such as Castro’s Cuba.
WHO | Message from the Director-General

The oh-so-political WHO/UN is not thrilled with governments like the US, as they have determined that we do not have a progressive-enough tax system. This is one of the criteria for judging our healthcare.
WHO, “World Health Organization Assesses
theWorld’sHealth Systems,” press release, undated,
http://www.who.int/whr/2000/media_centre
/press_release/en/index.html.

1. Health Level: 25 percent
2. Health Distribution: 25 percent
3. Responsiveness: 12.5 percent
4. Responsiveness Distribution: 12.5 percent
5. Financial Fairness: 25 percent
http://www.cato.org/pubs/bp/bp101.pdf

After an intensive survey of over 1000 respondents, half of whom were members of UN staff, they designed a measurement of healthcare in which 62.5% of the criteria of their healthcare study on some type of “equality!”
WHO | The world health report 2000 - Health systems: improving performance

Note that the United States suffers in the WHO/UN healthcare ratings due to a definition of fairness which reads: “the smallest feasible differences between individuals and groups.” Therefore a poor nation that does not have our level of expensive or experimental treatment, and therefore lets all suffers die, would have a higher rating than the US.
This is not to imply that only the rich in America can get the ‘expensive’ treatment, since there are many options such as a)getting a loan, b) asking a family member or a charity for help, c) find a doctor, hospital, or drug company willing to work at a reduced rate. All are common.
And because we have rich people who pay a great deal for the best healthcare, enabling research and development, the end result is that this brings costs down and makes treatment affordable for everyone.

Grow up.
Wise up.

Facts that show blind patriotism is based on false premises is not anti American. In fact, showing that we are falling behind and demanding that we fulfill the potential that this great country has is true patriotism.

Your entire post is filled with inaccurate nonsense.

It's like you added 2 and 2 and got starfish.

You can't really believe they couldn't find data...in the US...

And it's the rich people that make us great LOL

Wow, they really saw you coming didn't they?

You are a silly, juvenile fellow...and probably will not realize how you have been manipulated...

But here is some indirect evidence that you should consider. If I am not correct to a far greater degree than you are about healthcare in the United States, and your master on the Left are the correct ones....

....how do you account for the fact that everything that Obama told you would be true about ObamaCare has and is proving to be lies?


...doesn't cover everyone

...premiums up, not down- doesn't “bend the cost curve downward"

...won't be able to keep your own doctor

...cuts funding to Medicare

...CBO now admits it will cost over twice as much. “That is why I have pledged that I will not sign health insurance reform that adds even one dime to our deficit over the next decade.”

..."Under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase." Check this out: JCT: Healthcare law to sock middle class with a $3.9 billion tax increase in 2019 - The Hill's On The Money

So...are you going to look at all the lies of the Left, but continue to put your faith in what they tell you?
Does that make sense?

 

[dblack]

Clearly YOU are the ONLY one declaring such an absurd notion.

I'm just trying to go with the flow. Clearly, whatever the question, government is the answer. At least according to government.

Go team!

No, you're just being an ass for the hell of it....either that or you crave attention but do not have the guts or the brains to engage in an honest debate on the issue. So you'll be ignored for the irritant you attempt to be. Adios.

Ignore away. It's true I'm being a bit of an ass. But it's for much more than just the "hell of it". I'm making a genuine point. I'm trying to get people in this thread to think critically about the purpose of government. I'm suggesting, via sarcasm and assitude, that the purpose of government is not (or rather,, should not be) to solve all our problems. From my perspective, those who wish to socialize health care don't get that. They don't really have an appreciation of limited government, or an understanding of why it's necessary for freedom. Do you?

 

[Oddball]

so now bloomberg is a liar?
guess you didnt even read the link. but then again you wing nuts are big on facts these days.
The U.S. Census Bureau said in September that the number of people without coverage rose to 50.7 million in 2009 from 46.3 million in 2008. Forty-nine million Americans reported spending 10 percent or more of their income on insurance premiums and out-of-pocket costs last year, according to the Commonwealth Fund study. The research was based on telephone interviews conducted from July 14 to Nov. 30 with more than 4,000 adults aged 19 or older.

what 25 year old making $35k annually can afford 300-400 a month for health insurance? what family of 4 making $50k annually can afford 700-1000 a month for insurance.

Not even a good try at diverting from the questions...

How many of the uninsured qualify for Medicare/Medicaid, but haven't applied for it?

How many of the uninsured are in America illegally?

How many of the uninsured are well off enough to pay for their medical costs out-of-pocket?

There was no "diversion", YOU just don't like the FACTS, so now you try to distort the information:

1) Are you implying that there are hoards of people who qualify for Medicare/Medicaid but haven't applied? Where's your proof of such an allegation? And are you aware of the qualifications for application, and how those qualifications are measured in actual applications and acceptances?

2) WTF does undocumented and illegal aliens have to do with health insurance with regards to those who are legal/born citizens who are WORKING but CANNOT afford decent healthcare?

3) Are you implying that there are hoards of people who can pay for their own healthcare but "game" the system? Where's your proof of such an allegation?

I know the facts and you are a liar.

1) I'm not only implying it, it's a fact.

2) People here illegally and not citizens of this country are being used by useful idiots like you to inflate the number of "uninsured"....Why not just extend Obolshevikcare to all of Mexico while we're at it?

3) I'm implying nothing...There are millions of people who can afford to pay for their medical care out of pocket and do so....That's not gaming the system in any way.

The "X million of uninsured" number has been jimmied and inflated for no less than 20 years now.

 

[Decepticon]

You can't be this stupid....

Statistically speaking, the US pays more per person for Health Care than any other country in the world and with the exception of cancer ( If you have cancer, your chances of survival is higher in the US than anywhere else ) we receive less benefit.

So we pay more for less.

Only an idiot would find that favorable.

Untrue.

Judging by life span, the United States is number one.

"Critics of the U.S. health care system frequently maintain that other countries have superior health care we should use as models for U.S. reform. They argue that many countries spend far less on health care than the United States yet seem to enjoy better health outcomes.

However, these claims fall apart upon careful examination. Compared to the rest of the world, the U.S. has top-tier survival rates, choice of providers, and very short wait times. It turns out that the statistics critics cite either are incomplete or compare apples to oranges.


Life Expectancy. Another frequently cited statistic is that according to the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, the U.S. ranks 18th among 30 world democracies in life expectancy. However, health care is not the only factor in life expectancy. If you correct for two causes of death not directly related to health care—homicides and automobile accidents—the U.S. actually rises to the top of the list for life expectancy."
Inaccurate Grounds for Calling U.S. Health Care Inferior

Just one more example of Alexander Pope's rule...

"A little learning is a dangerous thing ;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring :
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again."

Number ONE?

That's not what the CIA says.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html


We're 50th in LONGEVITY!

Got anything other lies/ignorance you want me to crush while I'm here ?

 

[Decepticon]

Not even a good try at diverting from the questions...

How many of the uninsured qualify for Medicare/Medicaid, but haven't applied for it?

How many of the uninsured are in America illegally?

How many of the uninsured are well off enough to pay for their medical costs out-of-pocket?

There was no "diversion", YOU just don't like the FACTS, so now you try to distort the information:

1) Are you implying that there are hoards of people who qualify for Medicare/Medicaid but haven't applied? Where's your proof of such an allegation? And are you aware of the qualifications for application, and how those qualifications are measured in actual applications and acceptances?

2) WTF does undocumented and illegal aliens have to do with health insurance with regards to those who are legal/born citizens who are WORKING but CANNOT afford decent healthcare?

3) Are you implying that there are hoards of people who can pay for their own healthcare but "game" the system? Where's your proof of such an allegation?

I know the facts and you are a liar.

1) I'm not only implying it, it's a fact.

2) People here illegally and not citizens of this country are being used by useful idiots like you to inflate the number of "uninsured"....Why not just extend Obolshevikcare to all of Mexico while we're at it?

3) I'm implying nothing...There are millions of people who can afford to pay for their medical care out of pocket and do so....That's not gaming the system in any way.

The "X million of uninsured" number has been jimmied and inflated for no less than 20 years now.

If it's a fact, then you should be able to prove it.

But you don't. For ANY of it.
Ever.

 

[miami_thomas]

Why are no socialist countries switching to our system of private insurance???


Oh, because US healthcare costs more and it provides worse outcomes.


Success is self-evident CONZ.
Point to all the demonstrations in socialist coutries DEMANDING they change to our system.
Point to the cost savings of the U.S. system.
Explain how having a for profit middleman saves money on healthcare spending?

Because going from government to private is nearly impossible. Where do most medical innovations occur and what is the driving force? The answer is money. Where do most doctors from foreign countries come to train? Answer the United State. How long do diseases exist in other countries with no one doing anything until someone in the US gets ill with the disease? See AIDS. The truth is socialistic medicine is not profitable to health care companies and with out the United States profitability health care would suffer greatly. The rest of the world needs us to stay private even if they don’t realize it. Heck even medical advances made in other countries are done to make a profit in the US.

 

[eflatminor]

... they won't deny you coverage or not treat you just because you have a pre existing condition.

If only homeowner's insurance worked that way too. No one would have to take out a policy or pay a premium until the house was actually on fire. That would be great! Perfectly reasonable...and financially sustainable for the insurance industry I'm sure.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Why are no socialist countries switching to our system of private insurance???


Oh, because US healthcare costs more and it provides worse outcomes.


Success is self-evident CONZ.
Point to all the demonstrations in socialist coutries DEMANDING they change to our system.
Point to the cost savings of the U.S. system.
Explain how having a for profit middleman saves money on healthcare spending?

You can't be this stupid....

You mean....as-opposed-to being a totally-clueless Teabagger???




[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QwX_soZ1GI]BILL MOYERS JOURNAL | Wendell Potter | PBS - YouTube[/ame]

Wendell Potter

 

[miami_thomas]

In a democracy often the laws have to be compromises, and the result is programs that reflect those compromises. Usually, once the law is in place it begins to be altered, added to, and gradually improved. How many times has Social Security been changed since 1935? If this health care law hangs in there, over the years it will be gradually improved and may become a program that equals other nation's health care. To write a good law the first time is almost unAmerican, and reflects badly on the party out of power.

Other nation’s health care? Most other nations send there doctors to train here. Most medical advancements are done because of the need in the United States. People that are really sick come to the United States to be treated. Are you truly as dumb as you sound?

 

[Decepticon]

Why are no socialist countries switching to our system of private insurance???


Oh, because US healthcare costs more and it provides worse outcomes.


Success is self-evident CONZ.
Point to all the demonstrations in socialist coutries DEMANDING they change to our system.
Point to the cost savings of the U.S. system.
Explain how having a for profit middleman saves money on healthcare spending?

Because going from government to private is nearly impossible. Where do most medical innovations occur and what is the driving force? The answer is money. Where do most doctors from foreign countries come to train? Answer the United State. How long do diseases exist in other countries with no one doing anything until someone in the US gets ill with the disease? See AIDS. The truth is socialistic medicine is not profitable to health care companies and with out the United States profitability health care would suffer greatly. The rest of the world needs us to stay private even if they don’t realize it. Heck even medical advances made in other countries are done to make a profit in the US.

If any of this were true, you could prove it. I'll wait while you don't.

Nope. Not a shred of evidence.
Meanwhile, MY ORIGINAL statement still stands true.

WHY ARE NO SOCIALIST COUNTRIES CHANGING TO OUR SYSTEM ?

 

[miami_thomas]

Why are no socialist countries switching to our system of private insurance???


Oh, because US healthcare costs more and it provides worse outcomes.


Success is self-evident CONZ.
Point to all the demonstrations in socialist coutries DEMANDING they change to our system.
Point to the cost savings of the U.S. system.
Explain how having a for profit middleman saves money on healthcare spending?

You can't be this stupid....

Statistically speaking, the US pays more per person for Health Care than any other country in the world and with the exception of cancer ( If you have cancer, your chances of survival is higher in the US than anywhere else ) we receive less benefit.

So we pay more for less.

Only an idiot would find that favorable.

That is because we live unhealthier lives then anywhere else. We have fatter people because we are richer than anywhere else. We drive everywhere where other countries walk everywhere because we all have cars. Know it is not an apples to apples comparison.

 

[The Rabbi]

Why are no socialist countries switching to our system of private insurance???


Oh, because US healthcare costs more and it provides worse outcomes.


Success is self-evident CONZ.
Point to all the demonstrations in socialist coutries DEMANDING they change to our system.
Point to the cost savings of the U.S. system.
Explain how having a for profit middleman saves money on healthcare spending?

Because going from government to private is nearly impossible. Where do most medical innovations occur and what is the driving force? The answer is money. Where do most doctors from foreign countries come to train? Answer the United State. How long do diseases exist in other countries with no one doing anything until someone in the US gets ill with the disease? See AIDS. The truth is socialistic medicine is not profitable to health care companies and with out the United States profitability health care would suffer greatly. The rest of the world needs us to stay private even if they don’t realize it. Heck even medical advances made in other countries are done to make a profit in the US.

If any of this were true, you could prove it. I'll wait while you don't.

Nope. Not a shred of evidence.
Meanwhile, MY ORIGINAL statement still stands true.

WHY ARE NO SOCIALIST COUNTRIES CHANGING TO OUR SYSTEM ?

Stupidity?

 

[miami_thomas]

you think England is socialist? you think germany is socialist? you think france is socialist? you think canada is socialist?

Make a point.

all those countries are democracy's yet the provide health care as a public service. none of those democratic countries are making a move to the american system.

so it is not only socialist countries such as Cuba and China who have better state run health care, it is democratic nations as well.

if the american system was so grand, every country would adopt it..... so tell us why they arent.

Obviously you have never been to Cuba. Don't believe what they tell you. Cuba is not where you would want to be if you were sick. See the link and you will see what Mr. Moore did not show you.

Hospital Clnico Quirrgico

 

[miami_thomas]

Why are no socialist countries switching to our system of private insurance???


Oh, because US healthcare costs more and it provides worse outcomes.


Success is self-evident CONZ.
Point to all the demonstrations in socialist coutries DEMANDING they change to our system.
Point to the cost savings of the U.S. system.
Explain how having a for profit middleman saves money on healthcare spending?

Because going from government to private is nearly impossible. Where do most medical innovations occur and what is the driving force? The answer is money. Where do most doctors from foreign countries come to train? Answer the United State. How long do diseases exist in other countries with no one doing anything until someone in the US gets ill with the disease? See AIDS. The truth is socialistic medicine is not profitable to health care companies and with out the United States profitability health care would suffer greatly. The rest of the world needs us to stay private even if they don’t realize it. Heck even medical advances made in other countries are done to make a profit in the US.

If any of this were true, you could prove it. I'll wait while you don't.

Nope. Not a shred of evidence.
Meanwhile, MY ORIGINAL statement still stands true.

WHY ARE NO SOCIALIST COUNTRIES CHANGING TO OUR SYSTEM ?

Which part you want me to prove?

 

[PoliticalChic]

Statistically speaking, the US pays more per person for Health Care than any other country in the world and with the exception of cancer ( If you have cancer, your chances of survival is higher in the US than anywhere else ) we receive less benefit.

So we pay more for less.

Only an idiot would find that favorable.

Untrue.

Judging by life span, the United States is number one.

"Critics of the U.S. health care system frequently maintain that other countries have superior health care we should use as models for U.S. reform. They argue that many countries spend far less on health care than the United States yet seem to enjoy better health outcomes.

However, these claims fall apart upon careful examination. Compared to the rest of the world, the U.S. has top-tier survival rates, choice of providers, and very short wait times. It turns out that the statistics critics cite either are incomplete or compare apples to oranges.


Life Expectancy. Another frequently cited statistic is that according to the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, the U.S. ranks 18th among 30 world democracies in life expectancy. However, health care is not the only factor in life expectancy. If you correct for two causes of death not directly related to health care—homicides and automobile accidents—the U.S. actually rises to the top of the list for life expectancy."
Inaccurate Grounds for Calling U.S. Health Care Inferior

Just one more example of Alexander Pope's rule...

"A little learning is a dangerous thing ;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring :
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again."

Number ONE?

That's not what the CIA says.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html


We're 50th in LONGEVITY!

Got anything other lies/ignorance you want me to crush while I'm here ?

Post #81 applies to you as well.

 

[PoliticalChic]

There was no "diversion", YOU just don't like the FACTS, so now you try to distort the information:

1) Are you implying that there are hoards of people who qualify for Medicare/Medicaid but haven't applied? Where's your proof of such an allegation? And are you aware of the qualifications for application, and how those qualifications are measured in actual applications and acceptances?

2) WTF does undocumented and illegal aliens have to do with health insurance with regards to those who are legal/born citizens who are WORKING but CANNOT afford decent healthcare?

3) Are you implying that there are hoards of people who can pay for their own healthcare but "game" the system? Where's your proof of such an allegation?

I know the facts and you are a liar.

1) I'm not only implying it, it's a fact.

2) People here illegally and not citizens of this country are being used by useful idiots like you to inflate the number of "uninsured"....Why not just extend Obolshevikcare to all of Mexico while we're at it?

3) I'm implying nothing...There are millions of people who can afford to pay for their medical care out of pocket and do so....That's not gaming the system in any way.

The "X million of uninsured" number has been jimmied and inflated for no less than 20 years now.

If it's a fact, then you should be able to prove it.

But you don't. For ANY of it.
Ever.

"....then you should be able to prove it."

Actually, that is not the case.
Attention to the posts such as yours will yield the following conclusion to those of us who apply a scholarly approach:

1. Not facts, nor data, nor experience, nor rational debate will convince individuals such as you....

2. Inveterate Liberals have long ago achieved, even perfected, the willing suspension of disbelief, and the refusal to use experience and judgment....

3. It is my hope that those on my side of the argument will operate on the basis of "triage," consigning you the the category of those who cannot be saved....and will concentrate on those whose minds have not been warped, and wills sapped.

a. Present the facts, make the righteous argument. Hope for the best.

 

[Oddball]

Why are no socialist countries switching to our system of private insurance???


Oh, because US healthcare costs more and it provides worse outcomes.


Success is self-evident CONZ.
Point to all the demonstrations in socialist coutries DEMANDING they change to our system.
Point to the cost savings of the U.S. system.
Explain how having a for profit middleman saves money on healthcare spending?

Because going from government to private is nearly impossible. Where do most medical innovations occur and what is the driving force? The answer is money. Where do most doctors from foreign countries come to train? Answer the United State. How long do diseases exist in other countries with no one doing anything until someone in the US gets ill with the disease? See AIDS. The truth is socialistic medicine is not profitable to health care companies and with out the United States profitability health care would suffer greatly. The rest of the world needs us to stay private even if they don’t realize it. Heck even medical advances made in other countries are done to make a profit in the US.

If any of this were true, you could prove it. I'll wait while you don't.

Nope. Not a shred of evidence.
Meanwhile, MY ORIGINAL statement still stands true.

WHY ARE NO SOCIALIST COUNTRIES CHANGING TO OUR SYSTEM ?

First of all, Canada is backpedaling on their mandate that there be no for-hire medicine, so there's ONE country with socialized medicine moving back toward a more free system....Therefore your claim that no countries are making such a move is false on its face.

I' could post numerous links, viz. the outright lie of the inflated numbers of uninsured, all with legitimate citations, and I'll wager that you'll reject them all...Here are a few from just a cursory Google search...

The American Spectator : The Myth of the 46 Million

The myth of the uninsured - Raleigh Libertarian | Examiner.com

US Medicare and the Myth of "the 46 Million Uninsured" - Bill's Commentary - William Gairdner, freethinker

 

[Political Junky]

Because going from government to private is nearly impossible. Where do most medical innovations occur and what is the driving force? The answer is money. Where do most doctors from foreign countries come to train? Answer the United State. How long do diseases exist in other countries with no one doing anything until someone in the US gets ill with the disease? See AIDS. The truth is socialistic medicine is not profitable to health care companies and with out the United States profitability health care would suffer greatly. The rest of the world needs us to stay private even if they don’t realize it. Heck even medical advances made in other countries are done to make a profit in the US.

If any of this were true, you could prove it. I'll wait while you don't.

Nope. Not a shred of evidence.
Meanwhile, MY ORIGINAL statement still stands true.

WHY ARE NO SOCIALIST COUNTRIES CHANGING TO OUR SYSTEM ?

First of all, Canada is backpedaling on their mandate that there be no for-hire medicine, so there's ONE country with socialized medicine moving back toward a more free system....Therefore your claim that no countries are making such a move is false on its face.

I' could post numerous links, viz. the outright lie of the inflated numbers of uninsured, all with legitimate citations, and I'll wager that you'll reject them all...Here are a few from just a cursory Google search...

The American Spectator : The Myth of the 46 Million

The myth of the uninsured - Raleigh Libertarian | Examiner.com

US Medicare and the Myth of "the 46 Million*Uninsured" - Bill's Commentary - William Gairdner, freethinker

Can you give a link to "Canada is backpedaling on their mandate that there be no for-hire medicine"?

 

[eflatminor]

WHY ARE NO SOCIALIST COUNTRIES CHANGING TO OUR SYSTEM ?

Some have yet to run out of other people's money. Soon though, soon.

 

[Decepticon]

Gee an article from the American Spectator.

What an unbiased unimpeachable source you have presented.

And as for Political Chic,

All I asked was for him to PROVE what he asserted.
He didn't prove ANYTHING.

I listen to rational facts based on good scientific methodology.
What I don't listen to is "this is true" for no other reason than I assert it to be so.

When I post on here that middle class incomes have been stagnant since the 80's I post a chart showing so and WHO conducted the research. When I post what the top tax rates were for the rich in 1950's, I post a link proving it and WHO provided the data.
When I post longevity charts to compare longevity in the US to other countries, , I use the CIA as a source.

What do you guys do?
Assert things to be true and don't provide a SHRED of evidence.

Prove to me the superiority of our system with EMPIRICAL DATA or you've LOST this argument. You can present either that ours is more cost-efficient or that our outcomes are better.
It's as simple as that.

What did CONZ come up with? A hack piece from the partisan American Spectator that argues that only 21 million americans are uninsured.

Golly....less than 10% of our population can't afford healthcare! WOWEE! We're doing GREAT!

Here's a clue for you morons. How much do those 21 million COST the rest of us, because they aren't insured? Is it MORE or LESS than what we save? You don't know. You didn't even think to ask the question. That alone shows how grossly underqualified CONZ are to discuss the issue.