If gun control isn't the answer, what is?

[Dick Tuck]

yes, the answer is to revert to the wild west so you nutters can feel empowered like the macho men you wish you were.

yep...

<translation> "I don't want to hear about how a gun saved numerous lives."

Sorry sweetie, but they just do.


...Did you know.....

&#8226; A 1997 high school shooting in Pearl, Miss., was halted by the school's vice principal after he retrieved the Colt .45 he kept in his truck.
&#8226; A 1998 middle school shooting ended when a man living next door heard gunfire and apprehended the shooter with his shotgun.
&#8226; A 2002 terrorist attack at an Israeli school was quickly stopped by an armed teacher and a school guard.
&#8226; A 2002 law school shooting in Grundy, Va., came to an abrupt conclusion when students carrying firearms confronted the shooter.
&#8226; A 2007 mall shooting in Ogden, Utah, ended when an armed off-duty police officer intervened.
&#8226; A 2009 workplace shooting in Houston, Texas, was halted by two coworkers who carried concealed handguns.
&#8226; A 2012 church shooting in Aurora, Colo., was stopped by a member of the congregation carrying a gun.
&#8226; At the recent mall shooting in Portland, Ore., the gunman took his own life minutes after being confronted by a shopper carrying a concealed weapon. 2500 times last year alone legal gun owners stopped violent crime when confronted with it long before any police assistance ...

In 2010 there were an estimated 2.5 MILLION incidents where firearms saved a life.

Many more examples at link

Cases in which guns saved lives

You are aware of the numerous problems with Kleck's study, aren't you? I'd be ashamed to use that one. If Kleck's, and your contention was correct, the American South would have the lowest murder rates, since it has the highest percentage of handgun owners. To the contrary, the South has the highest murder and armed robbery rates in the country.

Clue yourself into the facts: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-4

 

[RandallFlagg]

Would you sell a gun to someone if he told you he thinks abortion doctors who were shot got what they deserved, and abortion is murder, and Scott Roeder is an American hero?

So at what point do we regulate human thought? I'll be the first to tell you that I have often thought (privately, never openly - for fear of people, who would probably lock me away in a "re-education" camp) that those abortion providers who have been murdered probably got a "just" reward. Do I condone it? Absolutely NOT!

Having stated that, I am a gun owner and have been since I was 10 years old. I served in the military (Vietnam) and killed people. Many, in fact. Other than service in the military, I have never used a weapon in anger. Never once.

Don't you find it rather odd, that the majority of these mass killings are perpetrated by those who have never served in the military, never fought in wars, yet been under observation (in many cases for years) for mental illness or have held "grudges" against society for some perceived "wrong" done to them, or, quite frankly, just snap one day? Or, worse yet, are teenagers, brought up on violence (constant video games, television, movies, books, magazines) etc etc that believe that "life has no meaning"? Here's a clue for the latter...Life has no meaning to those individuals because they were (most likely) never taught to respect life.

One passage in the Bible as ALWAYS stood out to me: "You reap what you sow"

so you think sending someone out to kill, kill, kill and exorcise the anger is the way to go for the borderline personality disorder types?

p.s. you don't tell people your opinion about aborton docs because you know it's wacky.

I'm not saying that at all. Comprehension is not your strong suit, is it? Im saying just the opposite. Those who have served in combat understand the severity of their actions and find it reprehensible. For the most part, they come home and suffer through nightmares for the next 20 or so years. The vast majority of combat veterans just try to move on and lead productive lives. I know. As a retired combat vet, I volunteer my services at the VA for returning vets.

I'm trying to tell people (apparently like you) that jump on an action by a crazy person and use it as a knee-jerk response to gain a political advantage (which the left loves to do - never let a tragedy go to waste) that there is never an easy answer to these things, but on first glance, when taken on the whole, it would appear that, at least in THIS case, there has been an overriding FAILURE of both the mental health professionals, his teachers and, most importantly, his parents.

again, unfortunately, these things are seldom "cut and dried". Those murdered babies are still dead and we sit around arguing about the "tool" used, rather than the boy wielding that "tool" and the failure of those around him to do what probably needed to be done. Placement in a mental health facility, years ago, for his, and societies good

PS. I don't tell anyone my opinion of "abortion docs" because it's MY opinion and I am entitled to either express it or not. Sorry it upsets you.

 

[eflatminor]

No problem with that. The deputy was probably well trained in fire arm use and crisis handling. The yahoos, otoh

So if you were in a crowded theater with a crazy motherfucker was shooting people and I took out a legally carried .45 to stop the guy, what would you say? "No, please don't shoot him, I'm not sure you've been well trained"?

By the way, I put about 15,000 round downrange per year. Most cops are required to qualify one per year...with less than 100 rounds. I've NEVER seen a cop show up to our weekly matches that was anywhere near as well trained as the us shooting sports enthusiasts.

Shooting at pieces of paper is a lot different than shooting at something moving and shooting back. Police also train in high stress situations.

Which is why we train with moving targets and static targets. It's why we train while moving and while standing still. It's also why we train to use cover. But you miss the point. The point is, the COPS DO VERY LITTLE FIREARMS TRAINING. Most department do not train regular cops at all to shoot, once they're out of the academy. They simply have to to qualify once per year by putting a few rounds downrange into a static piece of paper. That's the point.

I've had years in which I put over 20,000 rounds downrange. Not uncommon among shooting sports enthusiasts.

You are aware that in most states, you're personally responsible for any civilians you hit.

Perfectly aware.

 

[Dick Tuck]

Just going by the progressive media I've been flipping around. "Ban assault weapons" is the rally cry and there wasn't even an assault rifle used here.

And what did they do when the devil came? start hiding and hope for the best. Tragically that's all the option they have in these idiotic "gun free zones", better known as "criminal safe zones".

Just the facts dick.

The Bushmaster AR-15 is a civilian version of the M-16, it's capable of using high capacity ammo clips, and even includes a flash suppressor. Police have said he had several high capacity clips. Not sure if they were 30, 50, or 100 round clips. It is an assault weapon.

You can get or adapt clips/magazines to use higher capacity for any weapon that uses that style of loading...

And you think the flash suppressor makes a difference in the number of kills in a situation like this HOW??

It is not a true assault weapon except for bullshit criteria of LOOKS... it is not an automatic or military grade weapon.. sorry charlie

It hid the DC snipers pretty well. It had a lot of people looking for white vans, instead of a blue sedan. It would also work pretty well in a darkened theater.

 

[ba1614]

Your broad brush shows that you're full of shit.

Just going by the progressive media I've been flipping around. "Ban assault weapons" is the rally cry and there wasn't even an assault rifle used here.

And what did they do when the devil came? start hiding and hope for the best. Tragically that's all the option they have in these idiotic "gun free zones", better known as "criminal safe zones".

Just the facts dick.

The Bushmaster AR-15 is a civilian version of the M-16, it's capable of using high capacity ammo clips, and even includes a flash suppressor. Police have said he had several high capacity clips. Not sure if they were 30, 50, or 100 round clips. It is an assault weapon.

No, it is not an assault weapon, you'll have to change the definition if you want to consider it as such.

 

[Dick Tuck]

Just going by the progressive media I've been flipping around. "Ban assault weapons" is the rally cry and there wasn't even an assault rifle used here.

And what did they do when the devil came? start hiding and hope for the best. Tragically that's all the option they have in these idiotic "gun free zones", better known as "criminal safe zones".

Just the facts dick.

The Bushmaster AR-15 is a civilian version of the M-16, it's capable of using high capacity ammo clips, and even includes a flash suppressor. Police have said he had several high capacity clips. Not sure if they were 30, 50, or 100 round clips. It is an assault weapon.

No, it is not an assault weapon, you'll have to change the definition if you want to consider it as such.

It was listed as an assault weapon while the ban was in place. It's you that needs to work on your definitions.

 

[eflatminor]

The Bushmaster AR-15 is a civilian version of the M-16, it's capable of using high capacity ammo clips, and even includes a flash suppressor. Police have said he had several high capacity clips. Not sure if they were 30, 50, or 100 round clips. It is an assault weapon.

You can get or adapt clips/magazines to use higher capacity for any weapon that uses that style of loading...

And you think the flash suppressor makes a difference in the number of kills in a situation like this HOW??

It is not a true assault weapon except for bullshit criteria of LOOKS... it is not an automatic or military grade weapon.. sorry charlie

It hid the DC snipers pretty well. It had a lot of people looking for white vans, instead of a blue sedan. It would also work pretty well in a darkened theater.

Uh, the DC sniper shot from inside a vehicle. A flash suppressor would have made no difference.

Have you every actually seen what a flash suppressor does? Have you ever fired a rifle with and without one?

It has a lot less to do with covering a flash and more to do with the efficient expulsion of gases, which keeps the muzzle from flipping during the shot. They're about accuracy, not some evil intent.

 

[DiamondDave]

You can get or adapt clips/magazines to use higher capacity for any weapon that uses that style of loading...

And you think the flash suppressor makes a difference in the number of kills in a situation like this HOW??

It is not a true assault weapon except for bullshit criteria of LOOKS... it is not an automatic or military grade weapon.. sorry charlie

It hid the DC snipers pretty well. It had a lot of people looking for white vans, instead of a blue sedan. It would also work pretty well in a darkened theater.

Uh, the DC sniper shot from inside a vehicle. A flash suppressor would have made no difference.

Have you every actually seen what a flash suppressor does? Have you ever fired a rifle with and without one?

It has a lot less to do with covering a flash and more to do with the efficient expulsion of gases, which keeps the muzzle from flipping during the shot. They're about accuracy, not some evil intent.

It is quite evident DickSuck is pretty clueless on weapons

 

[ba1614]

The Bushmaster AR-15 is a civilian version of the M-16, it's capable of using high capacity ammo clips, and even includes a flash suppressor. Police have said he had several high capacity clips. Not sure if they were 30, 50, or 100 round clips. It is an assault weapon.

No, it is not an assault weapon, you'll have to change the definition if you want to consider it as such.

It was listed as an assault weapon while the ban was in place. It's you that needs to work on your definitions.

Only the modified ones were considered assault weapons.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Define "crazies." That's a slippery slope there because i'm sure plenty of lefties would call for righties to be locked up for nothing more than the political views, and vice versa.

Would you sell a gun to someone if he told you he thinks abortion doctors who were shot got what they deserved, and abortion is murder, and Scott Roeder is an American hero?

So at what point do we regulate human thought? I'll be the first to tell you that I have often thought (privately, never openly - for fear of people, who would probably lock me away in a "re-education" camp) that those abortion providers who have been murdered probably got a "just" reward. Do I condone it? Absolutely NOT!

Having stated that, I am a gun owner and have been since I was 10 years old. I served in the military (Vietnam) and killed people. Many, in fact. Other than service in the military, I have never used a weapon in anger. Never once.

Don't you find it rather odd, that the majority of these mass killings are perpetrated by those who have never served in the military, never fought in wars, yet been under observation (in many cases for years) for mental illness or have held "grudges" against society for some perceived "wrong" done to them, or, quite frankly, just snap one day? Or, worse yet, are teenagers, brought up on violence (constant video games, television, movies, books, magazines) etc etc that believe that "life has no meaning"? Here's a clue for the latter...Life has no meaning to those individuals because they were (most likely) never taught to respect life.

One passage in the Bible as ALWAYS stood out to me: "You reap what you sow"

Ok, so now you want to eliminate mental state of mind as a disqualifier for acquiring guns.

What's left?

Do we resign ourselves to only banning gun ownership to people with after the fact evidence? As in, ban felons? Ban the kid the who sold pot out of his dorm room in college, but full speed ahead for the guy with the mentality to become the next anti - abortionist terrorist?

 

[DiamondDave]

The Bushmaster AR-15 is a civilian version of the M-16, it's capable of using high capacity ammo clips, and even includes a flash suppressor. Police have said he had several high capacity clips. Not sure if they were 30, 50, or 100 round clips. It is an assault weapon.

No, it is not an assault weapon, you'll have to change the definition if you want to consider it as such.

It was listed as an assault weapon while the ban was in place. It's you that needs to work on your definitions.

The definition for the ban was more based on looks than anything else.. as stated, I can go do more damage with my Saiga-12 shotgun than you can with an AR...

 

[Dick Tuck]

You can get or adapt clips/magazines to use higher capacity for any weapon that uses that style of loading...

And you think the flash suppressor makes a difference in the number of kills in a situation like this HOW??

It is not a true assault weapon except for bullshit criteria of LOOKS... it is not an automatic or military grade weapon.. sorry charlie

It hid the DC snipers pretty well. It had a lot of people looking for white vans, instead of a blue sedan. It would also work pretty well in a darkened theater.

Uh, the DC sniper shot from inside a vehicle. A flash suppressor would have made no difference.

Have you every actually seen what a flash suppressor does? Have you ever fired a rifle with and without one?

It has a lot less to do with covering a flash and more to do with the efficient expulsion of gases, which keeps the muzzle from flipping during the shot. They're about accuracy, not some evil intent.

He shot out of a hole carved in the trunk.

 

[RandallFlagg]

Would you sell a gun to someone if he told you he thinks abortion doctors who were shot got what they deserved, and abortion is murder, and Scott Roeder is an American hero?

So at what point do we regulate human thought? I'll be the first to tell you that I have often thought (privately, never openly - for fear of people, who would probably lock me away in a "re-education" camp) that those abortion providers who have been murdered probably got a "just" reward. Do I condone it? Absolutely NOT!

Having stated that, I am a gun owner and have been since I was 10 years old. I served in the military (Vietnam) and killed people. Many, in fact. Other than service in the military, I have never used a weapon in anger. Never once.

Don't you find it rather odd, that the majority of these mass killings are perpetrated by those who have never served in the military, never fought in wars, yet been under observation (in many cases for years) for mental illness or have held "grudges" against society for some perceived "wrong" done to them, or, quite frankly, just snap one day? Or, worse yet, are teenagers, brought up on violence (constant video games, television, movies, books, magazines) etc etc that believe that "life has no meaning"? Here's a clue for the latter...Life has no meaning to those individuals because they were (most likely) never taught to respect life.

One passage in the Bible as ALWAYS stood out to me: "You reap what you sow"

Ok, so now you want to eliminate mental state of mind as a disqualifier for acquiring guns.

What's left?

Do we resign ourselves to only banning gun ownership to people with after the fact evidence? As in, ban felons? Ban the kid the who sold pot out of his dorm room in college, but full speed ahead for the guy with the mentality to become the next anti - abortionist terrorist?

Apparently, some of the respondents here are unable to comprehend what they read, or I am (regrettably) not making myself clear. OF COURSE NOT!! Nowhere have I written that mental state of mind should be elimanted as a "DISQUALIFIER" for acquiring guns. NOWHERE. Please! I invite you to point out where I have EVER written this.

So, then, what is YOUR determination of "mental illness"? If someone, in a sudden fit of angst, claims that Doctor X "got what was coming to him" that he is mentally unbalanced?? For a split second, you may be right. So, then, when the left was calling for the "murder" of George Bush, were they not the same? When the arm-chair QB, watching his team on Sunday yells out, "kill the bum - rip his head off" is HE not insane also? Wake up, sonny.

I would add, however, after this post, that (tongue-in-cheek), those unable to read and write should probably NOT be allowed to purchase firearms......

 

[Dick Tuck]

No, it is not an assault weapon, you'll have to change the definition if you want to consider it as such.

It was listed as an assault weapon while the ban was in place. It's you that needs to work on your definitions.

The definition for the ban was more based on looks than anything else.. as stated, I can go do more damage with my Saiga-12 shotgun than you can with an AR...

And if your Saiga-12 were configured without use of a tool to change the magazine, it would also be classified as an assault weapon.

 

[eflatminor]

It hid the DC snipers pretty well. It had a lot of people looking for white vans, instead of a blue sedan. It would also work pretty well in a darkened theater.

Uh, the DC sniper shot from inside a vehicle. A flash suppressor would have made no difference.

Have you every actually seen what a flash suppressor does? Have you ever fired a rifle with and without one?

It has a lot less to do with covering a flash and more to do with the efficient expulsion of gases, which keeps the muzzle from flipping during the shot. They're about accuracy, not some evil intent.

He shot out of a hole carved in the trunk.

Correct, which means your statement that a flash suppressor "hid the DC snipers pretty well" is bogus.

 

[depotoo]

I heard this guy had tried to purchase a gun himself recently but was denied the purchase for some reason. Does anyone know if it was due to his history? If that is indeed the case, then why is it that law enforcement are not notified so they can then follow up on the attempted purchase? Seems to me, if his residence was contacted, his mother being his guardian would have been aware something was going terribly wrong and possibly sought the help he needed at that time. Would this help with every case? No, but we live in an imperfect world in which we cannot divert all tragedy. No amount of laws can ever stop all tragedies from occurring. But possibly it could help.

I personally think that there needs to be much more research into mental health issues - not through pharmaceutical companies, but from medical researchers. Only when it can be more fully understood why it happens could we possibly stem some of societies ills.

 

[RandallFlagg]

I heard this guy had tried to purchase a gun himself recently but was denied the purchase for some reason. Does anyone know if it was due to his history? If that is indeed the case, then why is it that law enforcement are not notified so they can then follow up on the attempted purchase? Seems to me, if his residence was contacted, his mother being his guardian would have been aware something was going terribly wrong and possibly sought the help he needed at that time. Would this help with every case? No, but we live in an imperfect world in which we cannot divert all tragedy. No amount of laws can ever stop all tragedies from occurring. But possibly it could help.

I personally think that there needs to be much more research into mental health issues - not through pharmaceutical companies, but from medical researchers. Only when it can be more fully understood why it happens could we possibly stem some of societies ills.

As I understand it, right now that s conjecture - but could well be true. However, you make an excellent point in that if he did, in fact attempt to purchase a weapon and the background check showed his mental history, why weren't the local police notified.

Look, as in the case of many of these murders, we often ask ourselves, "what could we have done to prevent this from happening". I'm not sure there is ever an easy answer. Because of this horror, we sit back and scratch our heads and ask "why"?

One of my favorite songwriters, Harry Chapin, wrote a song entitled "The Sniper" many, many years ago about the man who climbed to the top of the clock tower at the University of Texas (Austin) and killed dozens of people. I invite you all to look up the lyrics (I won't bore you with posting them here - google is our friend) but you will notice STARK similarities between that man and this kid.

So, there really is nothing new here, between the 60s and now. Mental illness is still mental illness and, sorry to say, we are no better treating it now, than we were back then.

 

[wavingrl]

I heard this guy had tried to purchase a gun himself recently but was denied the purchase for some reason. Does anyone know if it was due to his history? If that is indeed the case, then why is it that law enforcement are not notified so they can then follow up on the attempted purchase? Seems to me, if his residence was contacted, his mother being his guardian would have been aware something was going terribly wrong and possibly sought the help he needed at that time. Would this help with every case? No, but we live in an imperfect world in which we cannot divert all tragedy. No amount of laws can ever stop all tragedies from occurring. But possibly it could help.

I personally think that there needs to be much more research into mental health issues - not through pharmaceutical companies, but from medical researchers. Only when it can be more fully understood why it happens could we possibly stem some of societies ills.

I understood that there was a waiting period in CN --the reason he couldn't purchase a gun.

He had no criminal history.

I agree much more research needs to be done. I honestly don't think there will ever come a time when we will be able to identify 'these problems' well enough to prevent them. How does the brain develop?

The miracle would seem to be that most people develop without these problems.

I don't know what I would do as the parent of a child with such problems. I am not a gun enthusiast so I wouldn't have shared that interest with my child. Residential psychiatric care for a lifetime---if such facilities exist the cost must be staggering and would any insurance company agree?

The state owned asylum approach was tried with devastatingly poor results, jmo.

If there are those among us who have more informed alternatives I hope they speak up.

 

[zeke]

I heard this guy had tried to purchase a gun himself recently but was denied the purchase for some reason. Does anyone know if it was due to his history? If that is indeed the case, then why is it that law enforcement are not notified so they can then follow up on the attempted purchase? Seems to me, if his residence was contacted, his mother being his guardian would have been aware something was going terribly wrong and possibly sought the help he needed at that time. Would this help with every case? No, but we live in an imperfect world in which we cannot divert all tragedy. No amount of laws can ever stop all tragedies from occurring. But possibly it could help.

I personally think that there needs to be much more research into mental health issues - not through pharmaceutical companies, but from medical researchers. Only when it can be more fully understood why it happens could we possibly stem some of societies ills.

As I understand it, right now that s conjecture - but could well be true. However, you make an excellent point in that if he did, in fact attempt to purchase a weapon and the background check showed his mental history, why weren't the local police notified.

Look, as in the case of many of these murders, we often ask ourselves, "what could we have done to prevent this from happening". I'm not sure there is ever an easy answer. Because of this horror, we sit back and scratch our heads and ask "why"?

One of my favorite songwriters, Harry Chapin, wrote a song entitled "The Sniper" many, many years ago about the man who climbed to the top of the clock tower at the University of Texas (Austin) and killed dozens of people. I invite you all to look up the lyrics (I won't bore you with posting them here - google is our friend) but you will notice STARK similarities between that man and this kid.

So, there really is nothing new here, between the 60s and now. Mental illness is still mental illness and, sorry to say, we are no better treating it now, than we were back then.

Really? You think responsible gun ownership is to much to ask of the people out there buying multiples of high power weapons. That's to much to ask you think?

Why would that be?

This woman was a gun "lover" evidentally and as figure she knew her son had issues and problems. You don't think these guns should have been in the best gun safe out there? That only she knew the combanation to. She had 300k a year income.

But you think that would have been out of line. Locking up her guns. Keeping ammo elsewhere. Trigger locks?

Hell, maybe taken the guns to a friends to keep till the son got a little better handle on life.

Nah to much to ask.

Responsible ownership is being able to buy them, keep ammo in house and mix in a disturbed young man and see what happens.

Didn't work out to well did it? But there is sure something could be done to keep shit like this from happening. Not 100%. But you can cut some tragadies out. And some is better than giving up.

 

[P@triot]

Teach our children love and respect,hope for the best.

Dogs do what dogs do.

So what do you do about gun nut loon parents that teach their kids irrational paranoia?

Actually, what you do about the Dick Tuck loon parents that teach their kids irrational paranoia about an inanimate object?