I Like Guns

[Sodafin]

I would like to see a study that makes a correlation between homocide and illegal gun ownership. Illegal gun ownership or possession of guns by those that are not legally allowed to have guns is simply not affected by laws that might be passed, that's why it's illegal gun ownership.

Exactly, and well posted.

I notice a lot of the statistics only include legally purchased and owned weapons - whereas quite obviously a lot of the guns used in crimes do not exist on any legal register.

It's very misleading to see this state has tight gun laws, low gun ownership and a high rate of crime if you ignore the numbers of illegal weapons and/or those brought into the state from elsewhere.

Mexico is such a great example - very tight gun laws, but is swamped by guns brought in from the US - meaning a high rate of gun homicide.

 

[Screaming Eagle]

Over the last year gun sales have soared and murder has plummeted.

It doesnt matter. To cretins like Sodafin, guns will always be the problem. If they simply applied the same logic to anything else its absurdity would be apparent. No one needs an SUV. SUVs account for a large number of accidents. Therefore we need to ban SUVs. Etc etc.
As I said, gun control is the most debunked liberal myth out there. No one in America believes it, even those in favor of it.

The point of an SUV is a method of transport.

The point of an 9 mm Uzi is to take human lives.

We have laws to control both - most sensible people understand quite well that the risk of having both in society needs to be balanced against the purpose and benefits such items bring. Uzis endanger the lives of people who live in the same house - they deliver no perceivable benefit.

The same is not true of SUV's.

Why are you talking about Uzi's? No one has these. The reason we have the second amendment is primarily to protect ourselves. That is just as valid a reason today as it ever has been.

Even if magically all guns disappeared, in less than 3 months criminals would begin to have guns again, they would just make them. If you think it is that difficult to put together a metal pipe, projectile, propellant, and ignition then you are hopeless. Even if they didn't make their own guns they would still have machetes or muscle and would still kill as many people and commit as many crimes. It would make it easier for them. Even the baddest, toughest, fightenist dude would probably lose when 3-4 criminals came to take his stuff and kill him and/or his family. And if you are that guy and you are a criminal then you know that you can walk into practically any house at any time and do whatever you want. If they have guns, even if it is just grandma home alone, your ass is in big trouble.

 

[The Rabbi]

I would like to see a study that makes a correlation between homocide and illegal gun ownership. Illegal gun ownership or possession of guns by those that are not legally allowed to have guns is simply not affected by laws that might be passed, that's why it's illegal gun ownership.

Exactly, and well posted.

I notice a lot of the statistics only include legally purchased and owned weapons - whereas quite obviously a lot of the guns used in crimes do not exist on any legal register.

It's very misleading to see this state has tight gun laws, low gun ownership and a high rate of crime if you ignore the numbers of illegal weapons and/or those brought into the state from elsewhere.

Mexico is such a great example - very tight gun laws, but is swamped by guns brought in from the US - meaning a high rate of gun homicide.

Gee, you just managed to refute your entire premise.
What laws do you think will be effective in dealing with illegal weapons?

Oh, and that "swamped with weapons brought in from the U.S." is nonsense. Most of the drug cartel weapons are full autos and are brought in from further south.

 

[Sodafin]

Pulled that out of your ass I guess.

That's called an accident, btw. I realize it never happens with cars, ladders, swimming pools, etc etc.

Rabbi -

I think the words you were looking for were "Wow, it looks like I was wrong about there is no UZI that has taken a life in this country."

Again - cars are intended to be get people from A to B. We have laws to control the moderate risk involved in that.

Guns such as Uzis are intended to take human lives. We need laws to control the relatively high risk involved in that, too.

 

[The Rabbi]

Pulled that out of your ass I guess.

That's called an accident, btw. I realize it never happens with cars, ladders, swimming pools, etc etc.

Rabbi -

I think the words you were looking for were "Wow, it looks like I was wrong about there is no UZI that has taken a life in this country."

Again - cars are intended to be get people from A to B. We have laws to control the moderate risk involved in that.

Guns such as Uzis are intended to take human lives. We need laws to control the relatively high risk involved in that, too.

So there has been one Uzi that was involved in an accident. And there are 40,000 deaths from automobiles in this country every year. And you want to say that Uzis present a high risk??
But you have already refuted your own contention up above.

 

[Screaming Eagle]

I would like to see a study that makes a correlation between homocide and illegal gun ownership. Illegal gun ownership or possession of guns by those that are not legally allowed to have guns is simply not affected by laws that might be passed, that's why it's illegal gun ownership.

Exactly, and well posted.

I notice a lot of the statistics only include legally purchased and owned weapons - whereas quite obviously a lot of the guns used in crimes do not exist on any legal register.

It's very misleading to see this state has tight gun laws, low gun ownership and a high rate of crime if you ignore the numbers of illegal weapons and/or those brought into the state from elsewhere.

Mexico is such a great example - very tight gun laws, but is swamped by guns brought in from the US - meaning a high rate of gun homicide.

That actually isn't true, I've heard it too. Mexicans get 90%+ of their guns from somewhere other than the U.S.

 

[Sodafin]

Most of the drug cartel weapons are full autos and are brought in from further south.

The ATF doesn't seem to agree with you, Rabbi. Surprisingly.

Last year, 2,455 weapons traces requested by Mexico showed that guns had been purchased in the United States, according to the ATF. Texas, Arizona and California accounted for 1,805 of those traced weapons.

Tom Mangan, a senior ATF special agent in Arizona, compared the flow to reverse osmosis. "Just like the drugs that head north," firearms move south, he said. "The cartels are outfitting an army."

More than 6,700 licensed gun dealers have set up shop within a short drive of the 2,000-mile border, from the Gulf Coast of Texas to San Diego -- which amounts to more than three dealers for every mile of border territory. Law enforcement has come to call the region an "iron river of guns."

Guns from U.S. equip drug cartels - Los Angeles Times

 

[Screaming Eagle]

The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S. - Political News - FOXNews.com

 

[Sodafin]

So there has been one Uzi that was involved in an accident. And there are 40,000 deaths from automobiles in this country every year. And you want to say that Uzis present a high risk??

Well, 138 people were shot in the USA today.

So far this year, 3,138 people have been shot.

In 2006, more than 10,100 Americans died of gun violence.

So I'd say that represents a fairly high risk, yes, Rabbi. Wouldn't you?

 

[Screaming Eagle]

Also the 90% figure is that 90% of guns which Mexican authorities submit to the U.S. authorities to be traced turn out to be from the U.S. How many fully auto AK-47's do you think they turn in to the U.S.? Probably right around 0. The point is they know which ones are from the U.S. as they are U.S. brands and submit those so they can find the suppliers in the U.S.

 

[Missourian]

There's just one problem with the 90 percent "statistic" and it's a big one:


It's just not true.


In fact, it's not even close. The fact is, only 17 percent of guns found at Mexican crime scenes have been traced to the U.S.


What's true, an ATF spokeswoman told FOXNews.com, in a clarification of the statistic used by her own agency's assistant director, "is that over 90 percent of the traced firearms originate from the U.S."



A Look at the Numbers


In 2007-2008, according to ATF Special Agent William Newell, Mexico submitted 11,000 guns to the ATF for tracing. Close to 6,000 were successfully traced -- and of those, 90 percent -- 5,114 to be exact, according to testimony in Congress by William Hoover -- were found to have come from the U.S.

But in those same two years, according to the Mexican government, 29,000 guns were recovered at crime scenes.

In other words, 68 percent of the guns that were recovered were never submitted for tracing. And when you weed out the roughly 6,000 guns that could not be traced from the remaining 32 percent, it means 83 percent of the guns found at crime scenes in Mexico could not be traced to the U.S.

So, if not from the U.S., where do they come from? There are a variety of sources:

-- The Black Market. Mexico is a virtual arms bazaar, with fragmentation grenades from South Korea, AK-47s from China, and shoulder-fired rocket launchers from Spain, Israel and former Soviet bloc manufacturers.

-- Russian crime organizations. Interpol says Russian Mafia groups such as Poldolskaya and Moscow-based Solntsevskaya are actively trafficking drugs and arms in Mexico.

- South America. During the late 1990s, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) established a clandestine arms smuggling and drug trafficking partnership with the Tijuana cartel, according to the Federal Research Division report from the Library of Congress.

-- Asia. According to a 2006 Amnesty International Report, China has provided arms to countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Chinese assault weapons and Korean explosives have been recovered in Mexico.

-- The Mexican Army. More than 150,000 soldiers deserted in the last six years, according to Mexican Congressman Robert Badillo. Many took their weapons with them, including the standard issue M-16 assault rifle made in Belgium.

-- Guatemala. U.S. intelligence agencies say traffickers move immigrants, stolen cars, guns and drugs, including most of America's cocaine, along the porous Mexican-Guatemalan border. On March 27, La Hora, a Guatemalan newspaper, reported that police seized 500 grenades and a load of AK-47s on the border. Police say the cache was transported by a Mexican drug cartel operating out of Ixcan, a border town.


'These Don't Come From El Paso'

Ed Head, a firearms instructor in Arizona who spent 24 years with the U.S. Border Patrol, recently displayed an array of weapons considered "assault rifles" that are similar to those recovered in Mexico, but are unavailable for sale in the U.S.

"These kinds of guns -- the auto versions of these guns -- they are not coming from El Paso," he said. "They are coming from other sources. They are brought in from Guatemala. They are brought in from places like China.

They are being diverted from the military. But you don't get these guns from the U.S."

Some guns, he said, "are legitimately shipped to the government of Mexico, by Colt, for example, in the United States. They are approved by the U.S. government for use by the Mexican military service. The guns end up in Mexico that way -- the fully auto versions -- they are not smuggled in across the river."

Many of the fully automatic weapons that have been seized in Mexico cannot be found in the U.S., but they are not uncommon in the Third World.

The Mexican government said it has seized 2,239 grenades in the last two years -- but those grenades and the rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs) are unavailable in U.S. gun shops. The ones used in an attack on the U.S. Consulate in Monterrey in October and a TV station in January were made in South Korea. Almost 70 similar grenades were seized in February in the bottom of a truck entering Mexico from Guatemala.

"Most of these weapons are being smuggled from Central American countries or by sea, eluding U.S. and Mexican monitors who are focused on the smuggling of semi-automatic and conventional weapons purchased from dealers in the U.S. border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California," according to a report in the Los Angeles Times.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/ele...-percent-guns-mexico-fraction-number-claimed/

 

[The Rabbi]

So there has been one Uzi that was involved in an accident. And there are 40,000 deaths from automobiles in this country every year. And you want to say that Uzis present a high risk??

Well, 138 people were shot in the USA today.

So far this year, 3,138 people have been shot.

In 2006, more than 10,100 Americans died of gun violence.

So I'd say that represents a fairly high risk, yes, Rabbi. Wouldn't you?

Not really.
250,000 deaths were caused by doctors. So doctors represent 25 times the risk of death that guns do. Let's ban doctors!
And there are ten times the number of deaths from traffic accidents as from guns.
There are 20 times the number of childhood deaths from swimming pools as from guns.
And how many of the gun deaths you cite are the result of drug dealers and gangs shooting each other? Probably a fair amount. That represents real savings on the criminal justice system.

 

[slackjawed]

From a personal perspective, I ride along the border-even crossing it due to terrain, at least twice a year. I go about armed when I do. I have never been challenged by law enforcement either on a quad, on foot or on horseback. The border is porous in both directions.
I don't know where most mexicans get their guns, but from my experience, I don't think it is too hard to take them across the border in either direction.
I also keep a camp in Sineloa, I always go about armed at my camp. I have never been challenged by law enforcement, except to make a donation once or twice.

 

[Sodafin]

Well, 138 people were shot in the USA today.

So far this year, 3,138 people have been shot.

In 2006, more than 10,100 Americans died of gun violence.

So I'd say that represents a fairly high risk, yes, Rabbi. Wouldn't you?

Not really.
250,000 deaths were caused by doctors. So doctors represent 25 times the risk of death that guns do. Let's ban doctors!
And there are ten times the number of deaths from traffic accidents as from guns.
There are 20 times the number of childhood deaths from swimming pools as from guns.
.

Firstly - quite obviously many of your facts here are wildly off-target.

Do you really believe there were 250,000 deaths caused by doctors last year?

No, of course you don't - you are just avoiding answering my question.

But I'll explain this for a third time:

Cars are intended to get people from A to B. We have laws to limit the risk involved in that.

Swimming pools are intended for people to enjoy or use for sport. We also have laws to limit the risk involved in that, too.

Guns such as Uzis are used to kill people, and thus we needs laws to limit the impact of that.

The greater the risk, and the lower the benefit to society - the tighter the laws.

It's not a difficult point to grasp, is it?

 

[Sodafin]

Missourian -

Who claimed 90% of guns come from the US?

I know I didn't.

And yet I've now seen three posts challenge the assertion.

Please stick to what I have posted - not to what you wish I'd posted!

 

[Screaming Eagle]

Why do you keep talking about uzi's? Why not talk about banning private ownership of tanks, howitzers, or nuclear arms?

 

[slackjawed]

Well, 138 people were shot in the USA today.

So far this year, 3,138 people have been shot.

In 2006, more than 10,100 Americans died of gun violence.

So I'd say that represents a fairly high risk, yes, Rabbi. Wouldn't you?

Not really.
250,000 deaths were caused by doctors. So doctors represent 25 times the risk of death that guns do. Let's ban doctors!
And there are ten times the number of deaths from traffic accidents as from guns.
There are 20 times the number of childhood deaths from swimming pools as from guns.
.

Firstly - quite obviously many of your facts here are wildly off-target.

Do you really believe there were 250,000 deaths caused by doctors last year?

No, of course you don't - you are just avoiding answering my question.

But I'll explain this for a third time:

Cars are intended to get people from A to B. We have laws to limit the risk involved in that.

Swimming pools are intended for people to enjoy or use for sport. We also have laws to limit the risk involved in that, too.

Guns such as Uzis are used to kill people, and thus we needs laws to limit the impact of that.

The greater the risk, and the lower the benefit to society - the tighter the laws.

It's not a difficult point to grasp, is it?

It's not difficult to grasp the concept but it is difficult to accept. Except in the realm of public safety, such as driving a car on the highways, I do not approve of giving up the freedom to make the decision of what risk I am willing to take. I am of the mind that when the government takes on the role of deciding what risk I am entitled to take, I lose freedom, and responsibility. I am willing to take responsibility for my own decisions and think that when a government plays a role in that decision I lose certain freedoms.
People make poor choices and they sometimes die for them, regulating that is simply a means of excercising more control over the rest of us.
Especially when those laws are either not enforced or are selectivly enforced.

 

[The Rabbi]

Well, 138 people were shot in the USA today.

So far this year, 3,138 people have been shot.

In 2006, more than 10,100 Americans died of gun violence.

So I'd say that represents a fairly high risk, yes, Rabbi. Wouldn't you?

Not really.
250,000 deaths were caused by doctors. So doctors represent 25 times the risk of death that guns do. Let's ban doctors!
And there are ten times the number of deaths from traffic accidents as from guns.
There are 20 times the number of childhood deaths from swimming pools as from guns.
.

Firstly - quite obviously many of your facts here are wildly off-target.

Do you really believe there were 250,000 deaths caused by doctors last year?

No, of course you don't - you are just avoiding answering my question.

But I'll explain this for a third time:

Cars are intended to get people from A to B. We have laws to limit the risk involved in that.

Swimming pools are intended for people to enjoy or use for sport. We also have laws to limit the risk involved in that, too.

Guns such as Uzis are used to kill people, and thus we needs laws to limit the impact of that.

The greater the risk, and the lower the benefit to society - the tighter the laws.

It's not a difficult point to grasp, is it?

Yes, there are credible claims that mistakes by doctors etc cause 250k deaths.
We have many fewer laws governing swimming pools than we do guns, even though swimming pools are many multiple times more responsible for deaths than guns are. We have many more laws restricting gun ownership than drivers' licenses, even though there are ten times as many fatalities from cars as from guns.
As to benefit for society, what is the benefit of keeping yourself and your family safe? And what benefit is there from a sports car or SUV? They are not merely modes of transportation, and you know it. Or motorcycles, which account for many more deaths and serious injury than guns. Who needs a motorcycle?

As for your claim about Mexico, you wrote

Mexico is such a great example - very tight gun laws, but is swamped by guns brought in from the US - meaning a high rate of gun homicide.

So "swamped" implies a high rate of guns coming in from the U.S. This has been shown to be false.

 

[Sodafin]

Slackjawed -

Good comments.

Given we all accept swimming pools, cars and guns can be dangerous, it is a question of balancing the rights against the responsibility and the threat to others.

Cars present a real threat to innocent people, so we limit your right to speed, to drive without a safety belt, to modify the car yourself in some ways, to drive down sidewalks, and to drive through red lights.

Those are all limits on freedoms that I see few people argue with - because those limitations also protect our freedom to walk down the street without being smacked down by a Hummer.

Guns also represent a real threat to innocent people - and any sane society also balances the rights of gun owners against those threatened by those guns.

 

[The Rabbi]

Please, tell me. Who are "threatened by guns"?? WHo are these people?
While you're at it, please tell me what an assault weapon is, and a high calibre weapon, both phrases you have used in the past and not defined.