Greece’s Economy Is a Lesson for Republicans in the U.S.

[Silhouette]

Feel free to invest all your money in your green energy plan.
I'm sure you'll save Greece and make millions.

On the sister thread to this one: Greece Europe Energy Russia Problem s Solved. You re Welcome. US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum that was placed in the "Europe" dungeon...while this one remains in politics... your group pointed out that

1. Geothermal causes earthquakes! 2. Geothermal is too risky! 3. Geothermal is too expensive! and 4. Greece can't afford so little energy for such a huge investment!

To which I responded:

1. Pumping water into hot rock in extremely localized areas doesn't cause whole fault lines to shift. You cannot prove a causal agent like that. What an absurd claim! However, blasting away at entire zones of rock strata like is done in fracking is causing swarms of earthquakes with bullseyes right around fracking operations, consistenly. Yet I don't see you complaining about that. You must like the oil industry more than geothermal. Perhaps you consider them "the enemy" and would make up something like "they cause earthquakes and are expensive" to drive would-be investors away?

2. Yes, I'm sure it's very risky (compared to fracking and destroying whole layers of the earth with a toxic sludge, just under aquifers using brittle well casings that will crack with the earthquakes produced by fracking; causing capillary seepage upwards of the toxic stew into the aquifers above). Putting a straw in the ground that pumps fresh water on to hot rock and then recovering that hot water doesn't hurt a damn thing, and it's easy too. No chemical stew needed to extract it, like fracking.

3. Well, people can build gold-plated steam turbines and platinum-lined floors with rubies and emeralds studded in the walls but the simple fact is that geothermal and linear solar thermal plants should be cheap snap to set up. If their costs are artificially elevated to "make them look too pricey for the returns"...I again would suspect BigOil doing so, just like they engineered-to fail those huge circular jokes of solar thermal arrays..with flat mirrors placed 1/2 a mile away from this super high elevated tower that got up to under 100c. Wow! Meanwhile the builders of that joke knew at the time that the parabolic mirror, linear arrays got quickly up to 300 degrees c and cost a fraction of the money to build. They're even made modular so they snap together like a lego set. Watch the video in the OP.

4. See #1, #2 & #3...

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Feel free to invest all your money in your green energy plan.
I'm sure you'll save Greece and make millions.

On the sister thread to this one that was placed in the "Europe" dungeon...while this one remains in politics... your group pointed out that

1. Geothermal causes earthquakes! 2. Geothermal is too risky! 3. Geothermal is too expensive! and 4. Greece can't afford so little energy for such a huge investment!

To which I responded:

1. Pumping water into hot rock in extremely localized areas doesn't cause whole fault lines to shift. You cannot prove a causal agent like that. What an absurd claim! However, blasting away at entire zones of rock strata like is done in fracking is causing swarms of earthquakes with bullseyes right around fracking operations, consistenly. Yet I don't see you complaining about that. You must like the oil industry more than geothermal. Perhaps you consider them "the enemy" and would make up something like "they cause earthquakes and are expensive" to drive would-be investors away?

2. Yes, I'm sure it's very risky (compared to fracking and destroying whole layers of the earth with a toxic sludge, just under aquifers using brittle well casings that will crack with the earthquakes produced by fracking; causing capillary seepage upwards of the toxic stew into the aquifers above). Putting a straw in the ground that pumps fresh water on to hot rock and then recovering that hot water doesn't hurt a damn thing, and it's easy too. No chemical stew needed to extract it, like fracking.

3. Well, people can build gold-plated steam turbines and platinum-lined floors with rubies and emeralds studded in the walls but the simple fact is that geothermal and linear solar thermal plants should be cheap snap to set up. If their costs are artificially elevated to "make them look too pricey for the returns"...I again would suspect BigOil doing so, just like they engineered-to fail those huge circular jokes of solar thermal arrays..with flat mirrors placed 1/2 a mile away from this super high elevated tower that got up to under 100c. Wow! Meanwhile the builders of that joke knew at the time that the parabolic mirror, linear arrays got quickly up to 300 degrees c and cost a fraction of the money to build. They're even made modular so they snap together like a lego set. Watch the video in the OP.

4. See #1, #2 & #3...

You'll be rich! What could go wrong?
Best, cheapest energy ever!
And you're the only one who sees it.
Your genius must be a heavy burden.

 

[auditor0007]

It's not what you think it is

Greece is a faraway country with an economy roughly the size of greater Miami, so America has very little direct stake in its ongoing disaster. To the extent that Greece matters to us, it’s mainly about geopolitics: By poisoning relations among Europe’s democracies, the Greek crisis risks depriving the United States of crucial allies.

But Greece has nonetheless played an outsized role in U.S. political debate, as a symbol of the terrible things that will supposedly happen — any day now — unless we stop helping the less fortunate and printing money to fight unemployment. And Greece does indeed offer important lessons to the rest of us. But they’re not the lessons you think, and the people most likely to deliver a Greek-style economic disaster here in America are the very people who love to use Greece as a boogeyman.

To understand the real lessons of Greece, you need to be aware of two crucial points.

Paul Krugman[/paste:font]
Macroeconomics, trade, health care, social policy and politics.

• Ending Greece’s BleedingJUL 5
• Europe’s Many Economic DisastersJUL 3
• Greece Over the BrinkJUN 29
• Hooray for ObamacareJUN 25
• Slavery’s Long ShadowJUN 22

See More »

The first is that the “We’re Greece!” crowd has a truly remarkable track record when it comes to economic forecasting: They’ve been wrong about everything, year after year, but refuse to learn from their mistakes. The people now saying that Greece offers an object lesson in the dangers of government debt, and that America is headed down the same road, are the same people who predicted soaring interest rates and runaway inflation in 2010; then, when it didn’t happen, they predicted soaring rates and runaway inflation in 2011; then, well, you get the picture.

The second is that the story you’ve heard about Greece — that it borrowed too much, and its excessive debt led to the current crisis — is seriously incomplete. Greece did indeed run up too much debt (with a lot of help from irresponsible lenders). But its debt, while high, wasn’t that high by historical standards. What turned Greek debt troubles into catastrophe was Greece’s inability, thanks to the euro, to do what countries with large debts usually do: impose fiscal austerity, yes, but offset it with easy money.

Consider Greece’s situation at the end of 2009, when its debt crisis burst into the open. At that point Greek government debt was near 130 percent of gross domestic product, which is definitely a big number. But it’s by no means unprecedented. As it happens, Greece’s debt ratio in 2009 was about the same as America’s in 1946, just after the war. And Britain’s debt ratio in 1946 was twice as high.

Today, however, Greek debt is over 170 percent of G.D.P. and still rising. Is that because Greece just kept on borrowing? Actually, no — Greek debt is up only 6 percent since 2009, although that’s partly because it received some debt relief in 2012. The main point, however, is that the ratio of debt to G.D.P. is up because G.D.P. is down by more than 20 percent. And why is GDP down? Largely because of the austerity measures Greece’s creditors forced it to impose.

Does this mean that austerity is always self-defeating? No, there are cases — for example, Canada in the 1990s — of countries that slashed their debt while maintaining growth and reducing unemployment. But if you look at how they managed this, it involved combining fiscal austerity with easy money: Canada in the ’90s drastically reduced interest rates, encouraging private spending, while allowing its currency to depreciate, encouraging exports.
Greece, unfortunately, no longer had its own currency when it was forced into drastic fiscal retrenchment. The result was an economic implosion that ended up making the debt problem even worse. Greece’s formula for disaster, in other words, didn’t just involve austerity; it involved the toxic combination of austerity with hard money.

So who wants to impose that kind of toxic policy mix on America? The answer is, most of the Republican Party.

On one side, just about everyone in the G.O.P. demands that we reduce government spending, especially aid to lower-income families. (They also, of course, want to reduce taxes on the rich — but that wouldn’t do much to boost demand for U.S. products.)

On the other side, leading Republicans like Representative Paul Ryan incessantly attack the Federal Reserve for its efforts to boost the economy, delivering solemn lectures on the evils of “debasing” the dollar — when the main difference between the effects of austerity in Canada and in Greece was precisely that Canada could “debase” its currency, while Greece couldn’t. Oh, and many Republicans hanker for a return to the gold standard, which would effectively put us into a euro-like straitjacket.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/o...-a-lesson-for-republicans-in-the-us.html?_r=0

Great post. Of course cons will never understand it. Cons continue to believe that economic growth all derives from what those at the top create, when in fact economic growth comes from the bottom 50% of income earners. If they can't buy goods, the economy is fucked.

 

[The Rabbi]

It's not what you think it is

Greece is a faraway country with an economy roughly the size of greater Miami, so America has very little direct stake in its ongoing disaster. To the extent that Greece matters to us, it’s mainly about geopolitics: By poisoning relations among Europe’s democracies, the Greek crisis risks depriving the United States of crucial allies.

But Greece has nonetheless played an outsized role in U.S. political debate, as a symbol of the terrible things that will supposedly happen — any day now — unless we stop helping the less fortunate and printing money to fight unemployment. And Greece does indeed offer important lessons to the rest of us. But they’re not the lessons you think, and the people most likely to deliver a Greek-style economic disaster here in America are the very people who love to use Greece as a boogeyman.

To understand the real lessons of Greece, you need to be aware of two crucial points.

Paul Krugman[/paste:font]
Macroeconomics, trade, health care, social policy and politics.

• Ending Greece’s BleedingJUL 5
• Europe’s Many Economic DisastersJUL 3
• Greece Over the BrinkJUN 29
• Hooray for ObamacareJUN 25
• Slavery’s Long ShadowJUN 22

See More »

The first is that the “We’re Greece!” crowd has a truly remarkable track record when it comes to economic forecasting: They’ve been wrong about everything, year after year, but refuse to learn from their mistakes. The people now saying that Greece offers an object lesson in the dangers of government debt, and that America is headed down the same road, are the same people who predicted soaring interest rates and runaway inflation in 2010; then, when it didn’t happen, they predicted soaring rates and runaway inflation in 2011; then, well, you get the picture.

The second is that the story you’ve heard about Greece — that it borrowed too much, and its excessive debt led to the current crisis — is seriously incomplete. Greece did indeed run up too much debt (with a lot of help from irresponsible lenders). But its debt, while high, wasn’t that high by historical standards. What turned Greek debt troubles into catastrophe was Greece’s inability, thanks to the euro, to do what countries with large debts usually do: impose fiscal austerity, yes, but offset it with easy money.

Consider Greece’s situation at the end of 2009, when its debt crisis burst into the open. At that point Greek government debt was near 130 percent of gross domestic product, which is definitely a big number. But it’s by no means unprecedented. As it happens, Greece’s debt ratio in 2009 was about the same as America’s in 1946, just after the war. And Britain’s debt ratio in 1946 was twice as high.

Today, however, Greek debt is over 170 percent of G.D.P. and still rising. Is that because Greece just kept on borrowing? Actually, no — Greek debt is up only 6 percent since 2009, although that’s partly because it received some debt relief in 2012. The main point, however, is that the ratio of debt to G.D.P. is up because G.D.P. is down by more than 20 percent. And why is GDP down? Largely because of the austerity measures Greece’s creditors forced it to impose.

Does this mean that austerity is always self-defeating? No, there are cases — for example, Canada in the 1990s — of countries that slashed their debt while maintaining growth and reducing unemployment. But if you look at how they managed this, it involved combining fiscal austerity with easy money: Canada in the ’90s drastically reduced interest rates, encouraging private spending, while allowing its currency to depreciate, encouraging exports.
Greece, unfortunately, no longer had its own currency when it was forced into drastic fiscal retrenchment. The result was an economic implosion that ended up making the debt problem even worse. Greece’s formula for disaster, in other words, didn’t just involve austerity; it involved the toxic combination of austerity with hard money.

So who wants to impose that kind of toxic policy mix on America? The answer is, most of the Republican Party.

On one side, just about everyone in the G.O.P. demands that we reduce government spending, especially aid to lower-income families. (They also, of course, want to reduce taxes on the rich — but that wouldn’t do much to boost demand for U.S. products.)

On the other side, leading Republicans like Representative Paul Ryan incessantly attack the Federal Reserve for its efforts to boost the economy, delivering solemn lectures on the evils of “debasing” the dollar — when the main difference between the effects of austerity in Canada and in Greece was precisely that Canada could “debase” its currency, while Greece couldn’t. Oh, and many Republicans hanker for a return to the gold standard, which would effectively put us into a euro-like straitjacket.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/o...-a-lesson-for-republicans-in-the-us.html?_r=0

Great post. Of course cons will never understand it. Cons continue to believe that economic growth all derives from what those at the top create, when in fact economic growth comes from the bottom 50% of income earners. If they can't buy goods, the economy is fucked.

LOL! Demonstrating why liberalism fails 100% of the time.
Without innovators and managers the people at the bottom are unemployed. Duh.

 

[Silhouette]

You'll be rich! What could go wrong?
Best, cheapest energy ever!
And you're the only one who sees it.
Your genius must be a heavy burden.

Don't laugh..idiot...

California's First Commercial Solar Desalination Plant to Bring Freshwater to the Central Valley July 15, 2015
.."Using a sustainable source of energy to recycle or desalinate water will become a mainstay in regions with water scarcity," added Mandell....The new plant will be built on 35 acres of land currently farmed with salt-tolerant crops, with the potential of growing to a 70-acre site. This land that will house the solar desalination facility is a small fraction of the total 6,000 acres currently used to manage and reuse irrigation drainage water for the Panoche Water California s First Commercial Solar Desalination Plant to Bring Freshwater to the Central Valley Reuters

Wow those simple sheet metal parabolic mirrors look HORRIBLY complicated to set up shining at that centrally-located tube just feet away from the concave concentrating line along the array! Such TRICKY AND EXPENSIVE technology to shine a magnifying reflector at a pipe and run 300 degree c water to heat exchangers to run a steam turbine too! (I wonder if they can figure out to use the same hot water that way?? Or oil that can be superheated?)

Good for you California! You figured out that sunshine is free and makes things really really hot if you use a magnifying glass. No mining, no fuel, no refining, no pollution, no waste...just free fresh water every single day the sun shines..

Now if we can just convince Greece that their sunshine behaves exactly like California's does..they might pull themselves out of an economic slump!

 

[Meathead]

If you knew anything about Greece you would know that most of the water heating for homes is already solar and windmills also generate electricity on almost all the larger islands and in parts of the mainland.

This is a thread about the Greek economy and the fiscal fiasco brought on by irresponsible governments and socialist programs run amok, not tired ecological platitudes.

 

[Silhouette]

So why isn't Greece selling energy to upper Europe who has less sunshine and geothermal heat resources?

 

[Meathead]

By all means, if you can find a economically feasible way to convert wind and sun into electricity and transport it efficiently for thousands of miles do so. The world would be your oyster.

This is a thread about the Greek economy.

 

[DrDoomNGloom]

Great post. Of course cons will never understand it. Cons continue to believe that economic growth all derives from what those at the top create, when in fact economic growth comes from the bottom 50% of income earners. If they can't buy goods, the economy is fucked.

Too bad you fucking ignorant Tards (Liberal's / Progressives / Democrats) don't get the concept that bottom 50% has to WORK for their disposable income, wait make that all income.

You are right, if they are not working the economy is fucked.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

You'll be rich! What could go wrong?
Best, cheapest energy ever!
And you're the only one who sees it.
Your genius must be a heavy burden.

Don't laugh..idiot...

California's First Commercial Solar Desalination Plant to Bring Freshwater to the Central Valley July 15, 2015
.."Using a sustainable source of energy to recycle or desalinate water will become a mainstay in regions with water scarcity," added Mandell....The new plant will be built on 35 acres of land currently farmed with salt-tolerant crops, with the potential of growing to a 70-acre site. This land that will house the solar desalination facility is a small fraction of the total 6,000 acres currently used to manage and reuse irrigation drainage water for the Panoche Water California s First Commercial Solar Desalination Plant to Bring Freshwater to the Central Valley Reuters

Wow those simple sheet metal parabolic mirrors look HORRIBLY complicated to set up shining at that centrally-located tube just feet away from the concave concentrating line along the array! Such TRICKY AND EXPENSIVE technology to shine a magnifying reflector at a pipe and run 300 degree c water to heat exchangers to run a steam turbine too! (I wonder if they can figure out to use the same hot water that way?? Or oil that can be superheated?)

Good for you California! You figured out that sunshine is free and makes things really really hot if you use a magnifying glass. No mining, no fuel, no refining, no pollution, no waste...just free fresh water every single day the sun shines..

Now if we can just convince Greece that their sunshine behaves exactly like California's does..they might pull themselves out of an economic slump!

No mining, no fuel, no refining, no pollution, no waste...just free fresh water every single day the sun shines..

Free? LOL!
After they install it, we can discuss the actual cost of the fresh water.

 

[auditor0007]

Great post. Of course cons will never understand it. Cons continue to believe that economic growth all derives from what those at the top create, when in fact economic growth comes from the bottom 50% of income earners. If they can't buy goods, the economy is fucked.

Too bad you fucking ignorant Tards (Liberal's / Progressives / Democrats) don't get the concept that bottom 50% has to WORK for their disposable income, wait make that all income.

You are right, if they are not working the economy is fucked.

The ignorance is most definitely on the right. The bottom 50% of income earners account for a whopping 12% of all earnings, and you stupid fuckers blame them for anything and everything that you see as a problem. Most of them actually do work for most of their earnings and you still act like they are the problem because they are trying to just be paid fairly for the work they do. The right has lost complete touch with the reality of the working class in America.

 

[DrDoomNGloom]

Great post. Of course cons will never understand it. Cons continue to believe that economic growth all derives from what those at the top create, when in fact economic growth comes from the bottom 50% of income earners. If they can't buy goods, the economy is fucked.

Too bad you fucking ignorant Tards (Liberal's / Progressives / Democrats) don't get the concept that bottom 50% has to WORK for their disposable income, wait make that all income.

You are right, if they are not working the economy is fucked.

The ignorance is most definitely on the right. The bottom 50% of income earners account for a whopping 12% of all earnings, and you stupid fuckers blame them for anything and everything that you see as a problem. Most of them actually do work for most of their earnings and you still act like they are the problem because they are trying to just be paid fairly for the work they do. The right has lost complete touch with the reality of the working class in America.

You don't have a clue, your first and major problem is none of you dick sucking faggots and ni$$ers want to work ........................

 

[auditor0007]

It's not what you think it is

Greece is a faraway country with an economy roughly the size of greater Miami, so America has very little direct stake in its ongoing disaster. To the extent that Greece matters to us, it’s mainly about geopolitics: By poisoning relations among Europe’s democracies, the Greek crisis risks depriving the United States of crucial allies.

But Greece has nonetheless played an outsized role in U.S. political debate, as a symbol of the terrible things that will supposedly happen — any day now — unless we stop helping the less fortunate and printing money to fight unemployment. And Greece does indeed offer important lessons to the rest of us. But they’re not the lessons you think, and the people most likely to deliver a Greek-style economic disaster here in America are the very people who love to use Greece as a boogeyman.

To understand the real lessons of Greece, you need to be aware of two crucial points.

Paul Krugman[/paste:font]
Macroeconomics, trade, health care, social policy and politics.

• Ending Greece’s BleedingJUL 5
• Europe’s Many Economic DisastersJUL 3
• Greece Over the BrinkJUN 29
• Hooray for ObamacareJUN 25
• Slavery’s Long ShadowJUN 22

See More »

The first is that the “We’re Greece!” crowd has a truly remarkable track record when it comes to economic forecasting: They’ve been wrong about everything, year after year, but refuse to learn from their mistakes. The people now saying that Greece offers an object lesson in the dangers of government debt, and that America is headed down the same road, are the same people who predicted soaring interest rates and runaway inflation in 2010; then, when it didn’t happen, they predicted soaring rates and runaway inflation in 2011; then, well, you get the picture.

The second is that the story you’ve heard about Greece — that it borrowed too much, and its excessive debt led to the current crisis — is seriously incomplete. Greece did indeed run up too much debt (with a lot of help from irresponsible lenders). But its debt, while high, wasn’t that high by historical standards. What turned Greek debt troubles into catastrophe was Greece’s inability, thanks to the euro, to do what countries with large debts usually do: impose fiscal austerity, yes, but offset it with easy money.

Consider Greece’s situation at the end of 2009, when its debt crisis burst into the open. At that point Greek government debt was near 130 percent of gross domestic product, which is definitely a big number. But it’s by no means unprecedented. As it happens, Greece’s debt ratio in 2009 was about the same as America’s in 1946, just after the war. And Britain’s debt ratio in 1946 was twice as high.

Today, however, Greek debt is over 170 percent of G.D.P. and still rising. Is that because Greece just kept on borrowing? Actually, no — Greek debt is up only 6 percent since 2009, although that’s partly because it received some debt relief in 2012. The main point, however, is that the ratio of debt to G.D.P. is up because G.D.P. is down by more than 20 percent. And why is GDP down? Largely because of the austerity measures Greece’s creditors forced it to impose.

Does this mean that austerity is always self-defeating? No, there are cases — for example, Canada in the 1990s — of countries that slashed their debt while maintaining growth and reducing unemployment. But if you look at how they managed this, it involved combining fiscal austerity with easy money: Canada in the ’90s drastically reduced interest rates, encouraging private spending, while allowing its currency to depreciate, encouraging exports.
Greece, unfortunately, no longer had its own currency when it was forced into drastic fiscal retrenchment. The result was an economic implosion that ended up making the debt problem even worse. Greece’s formula for disaster, in other words, didn’t just involve austerity; it involved the toxic combination of austerity with hard money.

So who wants to impose that kind of toxic policy mix on America? The answer is, most of the Republican Party.

On one side, just about everyone in the G.O.P. demands that we reduce government spending, especially aid to lower-income families. (They also, of course, want to reduce taxes on the rich — but that wouldn’t do much to boost demand for U.S. products.)

On the other side, leading Republicans like Representative Paul Ryan incessantly attack the Federal Reserve for its efforts to boost the economy, delivering solemn lectures on the evils of “debasing” the dollar — when the main difference between the effects of austerity in Canada and in Greece was precisely that Canada could “debase” its currency, while Greece couldn’t. Oh, and many Republicans hanker for a return to the gold standard, which would effectively put us into a euro-like straitjacket.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/o...-a-lesson-for-republicans-in-the-us.html?_r=0

Great post. Of course cons will never understand it. Cons continue to believe that economic growth all derives from what those at the top create, when in fact economic growth comes from the bottom 50% of income earners. If they can't buy goods, the economy is fucked.

LOL! Demonstrating why liberalism fails 100% of the time.
Without innovators and managers the people at the bottom are unemployed. Duh.

The failings of the last three decades are completely due to the idiotic ideology of trickle down economics you dweeb. Trickle down brought us stagnant wages for the masses but made it possible for the very few to create massive wealth for themselves. The economy always has its ups and downs, but seeing the average American's standard of living reduced while the very few at the top see theirs grow ten times over is completely due to trickle down economics.

 

[The Rabbi]

It's not what you think it is

Greece is a faraway country with an economy roughly the size of greater Miami, so America has very little direct stake in its ongoing disaster. To the extent that Greece matters to us, it’s mainly about geopolitics: By poisoning relations among Europe’s democracies, the Greek crisis risks depriving the United States of crucial allies.

But Greece has nonetheless played an outsized role in U.S. political debate, as a symbol of the terrible things that will supposedly happen — any day now — unless we stop helping the less fortunate and printing money to fight unemployment. And Greece does indeed offer important lessons to the rest of us. But they’re not the lessons you think, and the people most likely to deliver a Greek-style economic disaster here in America are the very people who love to use Greece as a boogeyman.

To understand the real lessons of Greece, you need to be aware of two crucial points.

Paul Krugman[/paste:font]
Macroeconomics, trade, health care, social policy and politics.

• Ending Greece’s BleedingJUL 5
• Europe’s Many Economic DisastersJUL 3
• Greece Over the BrinkJUN 29
• Hooray for ObamacareJUN 25
• Slavery’s Long ShadowJUN 22

See More »

The first is that the “We’re Greece!” crowd has a truly remarkable track record when it comes to economic forecasting: They’ve been wrong about everything, year after year, but refuse to learn from their mistakes. The people now saying that Greece offers an object lesson in the dangers of government debt, and that America is headed down the same road, are the same people who predicted soaring interest rates and runaway inflation in 2010; then, when it didn’t happen, they predicted soaring rates and runaway inflation in 2011; then, well, you get the picture.

The second is that the story you’ve heard about Greece — that it borrowed too much, and its excessive debt led to the current crisis — is seriously incomplete. Greece did indeed run up too much debt (with a lot of help from irresponsible lenders). But its debt, while high, wasn’t that high by historical standards. What turned Greek debt troubles into catastrophe was Greece’s inability, thanks to the euro, to do what countries with large debts usually do: impose fiscal austerity, yes, but offset it with easy money.

Consider Greece’s situation at the end of 2009, when its debt crisis burst into the open. At that point Greek government debt was near 130 percent of gross domestic product, which is definitely a big number. But it’s by no means unprecedented. As it happens, Greece’s debt ratio in 2009 was about the same as America’s in 1946, just after the war. And Britain’s debt ratio in 1946 was twice as high.

Today, however, Greek debt is over 170 percent of G.D.P. and still rising. Is that because Greece just kept on borrowing? Actually, no — Greek debt is up only 6 percent since 2009, although that’s partly because it received some debt relief in 2012. The main point, however, is that the ratio of debt to G.D.P. is up because G.D.P. is down by more than 20 percent. And why is GDP down? Largely because of the austerity measures Greece’s creditors forced it to impose.

Does this mean that austerity is always self-defeating? No, there are cases — for example, Canada in the 1990s — of countries that slashed their debt while maintaining growth and reducing unemployment. But if you look at how they managed this, it involved combining fiscal austerity with easy money: Canada in the ’90s drastically reduced interest rates, encouraging private spending, while allowing its currency to depreciate, encouraging exports.
Greece, unfortunately, no longer had its own currency when it was forced into drastic fiscal retrenchment. The result was an economic implosion that ended up making the debt problem even worse. Greece’s formula for disaster, in other words, didn’t just involve austerity; it involved the toxic combination of austerity with hard money.

So who wants to impose that kind of toxic policy mix on America? The answer is, most of the Republican Party.

On one side, just about everyone in the G.O.P. demands that we reduce government spending, especially aid to lower-income families. (They also, of course, want to reduce taxes on the rich — but that wouldn’t do much to boost demand for U.S. products.)

On the other side, leading Republicans like Representative Paul Ryan incessantly attack the Federal Reserve for its efforts to boost the economy, delivering solemn lectures on the evils of “debasing” the dollar — when the main difference between the effects of austerity in Canada and in Greece was precisely that Canada could “debase” its currency, while Greece couldn’t. Oh, and many Republicans hanker for a return to the gold standard, which would effectively put us into a euro-like straitjacket.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/o...-a-lesson-for-republicans-in-the-us.html?_r=0

Great post. Of course cons will never understand it. Cons continue to believe that economic growth all derives from what those at the top create, when in fact economic growth comes from the bottom 50% of income earners. If they can't buy goods, the economy is fucked.

LOL! Demonstrating why liberalism fails 100% of the time.
Without innovators and managers the people at the bottom are unemployed. Duh.

The failings of the last three decades are completely due to the idiotic ideology of trickle down economics you dweeb. Trickle down brought us stagnant wages for the masses but made it possible for the very few to create massive wealth for themselves. The economy always has its ups and downs, but seeing the average American's standard of living reduced while the very few at the top see theirs grow ten times over is completely due to trickle down economics.

Since you do not know what "trickle down economics" is, nor could you define it your post is an exercise in stupidity.
Did Bill Clinton support "trickle down economics"?
Did Barack Obama support "trickle down economics"?
Because the economy has stagnated under Obama but did fine under Bush.

 

[auditor0007]

Great post. Of course cons will never understand it. Cons continue to believe that economic growth all derives from what those at the top create, when in fact economic growth comes from the bottom 50% of income earners. If they can't buy goods, the economy is fucked.

Too bad you fucking ignorant Tards (Liberal's / Progressives / Democrats) don't get the concept that bottom 50% has to WORK for their disposable income, wait make that all income.

You are right, if they are not working the economy is fucked.

The ignorance is most definitely on the right. The bottom 50% of income earners account for a whopping 12% of all earnings, and you stupid fuckers blame them for anything and everything that you see as a problem. Most of them actually do work for most of their earnings and you still act like they are the problem because they are trying to just be paid fairly for the work they do. The right has lost complete touch with the reality of the working class in America.

You don't have a clue, your first and major problem is none of you dick sucking faggots and ni$$ers want to work ........................

Seems you are one of those homophobes who is worried about your own sexuality. I've been married twice. My second wife died from leukemia. I raised our three sons by myself and have worked my entire life. Shove it up your ass and rotate it well you pussy. BTW, fuck face, my son is a US Marine.

 

[The Rabbi]

Great post. Of course cons will never understand it. Cons continue to believe that economic growth all derives from what those at the top create, when in fact economic growth comes from the bottom 50% of income earners. If they can't buy goods, the economy is fucked.

Too bad you fucking ignorant Tards (Liberal's / Progressives / Democrats) don't get the concept that bottom 50% has to WORK for their disposable income, wait make that all income.

You are right, if they are not working the economy is fucked.

The ignorance is most definitely on the right. The bottom 50% of income earners account for a whopping 12% of all earnings, and you stupid fuckers blame them for anything and everything that you see as a problem. Most of them actually do work for most of their earnings and you still act like they are the problem because they are trying to just be paid fairly for the work they do. The right has lost complete touch with the reality of the working class in America.

You don't have a clue, your first and major problem is none of you dick sucking faggots and ni$$ers want to work ........................

Seems you are one of those homophobes who is worried about your own sexuality. I've been married twice. My second wife died from leukemia. I raised our three sons by myself and have worked my entire life. Shove it up your ass and rotate it well you pussy. BTW, fuck face, my son is a US Marine.

You';re an unemployed 19yr old 300lb black man in mom's basement.
At least your posts read like that.

 

[TemplarKormac]

It's not what you think it is

Greece is a faraway country with an economy roughly the size of greater Miami, so America has very little direct stake in its ongoing disaster. To the extent that Greece matters to us, it’s mainly about geopolitics: By poisoning relations among Europe’s democracies, the Greek crisis risks depriving the United States of crucial allies.

But Greece has nonetheless played an outsized role in U.S. political debate, as a symbol of the terrible things that will supposedly happen — any day now — unless we stop helping the less fortunate and printing money to fight unemployment. And Greece does indeed offer important lessons to the rest of us. But they’re not the lessons you think, and the people most likely to deliver a Greek-style economic disaster here in America are the very people who love to use Greece as a boogeyman.

To understand the real lessons of Greece, you need to be aware of two crucial points.

Paul Krugman[/paste:font]
Macroeconomics, trade, health care, social policy and politics.

• Ending Greece’s BleedingJUL 5
• Europe’s Many Economic DisastersJUL 3
• Greece Over the BrinkJUN 29
• Hooray for ObamacareJUN 25
• Slavery’s Long ShadowJUN 22

See More »

The first is that the “We’re Greece!” crowd has a truly remarkable track record when it comes to economic forecasting: They’ve been wrong about everything, year after year, but refuse to learn from their mistakes. The people now saying that Greece offers an object lesson in the dangers of government debt, and that America is headed down the same road, are the same people who predicted soaring interest rates and runaway inflation in 2010; then, when it didn’t happen, they predicted soaring rates and runaway inflation in 2011; then, well, you get the picture.

The second is that the story you’ve heard about Greece — that it borrowed too much, and its excessive debt led to the current crisis — is seriously incomplete. Greece did indeed run up too much debt (with a lot of help from irresponsible lenders). But its debt, while high, wasn’t that high by historical standards. What turned Greek debt troubles into catastrophe was Greece’s inability, thanks to the euro, to do what countries with large debts usually do: impose fiscal austerity, yes, but offset it with easy money.

Consider Greece’s situation at the end of 2009, when its debt crisis burst into the open. At that point Greek government debt was near 130 percent of gross domestic product, which is definitely a big number. But it’s by no means unprecedented. As it happens, Greece’s debt ratio in 2009 was about the same as America’s in 1946, just after the war. And Britain’s debt ratio in 1946 was twice as high.

Today, however, Greek debt is over 170 percent of G.D.P. and still rising. Is that because Greece just kept on borrowing? Actually, no — Greek debt is up only 6 percent since 2009, although that’s partly because it received some debt relief in 2012. The main point, however, is that the ratio of debt to G.D.P. is up because G.D.P. is down by more than 20 percent. And why is GDP down? Largely because of the austerity measures Greece’s creditors forced it to impose.

Does this mean that austerity is always self-defeating? No, there are cases — for example, Canada in the 1990s — of countries that slashed their debt while maintaining growth and reducing unemployment. But if you look at how they managed this, it involved combining fiscal austerity with easy money: Canada in the ’90s drastically reduced interest rates, encouraging private spending, while allowing its currency to depreciate, encouraging exports.
Greece, unfortunately, no longer had its own currency when it was forced into drastic fiscal retrenchment. The result was an economic implosion that ended up making the debt problem even worse. Greece’s formula for disaster, in other words, didn’t just involve austerity; it involved the toxic combination of austerity with hard money.

So who wants to impose that kind of toxic policy mix on America? The answer is, most of the Republican Party.

On one side, just about everyone in the G.O.P. demands that we reduce government spending, especially aid to lower-income families. (They also, of course, want to reduce taxes on the rich — but that wouldn’t do much to boost demand for U.S. products.)

On the other side, leading Republicans like Representative Paul Ryan incessantly attack the Federal Reserve for its efforts to boost the economy, delivering solemn lectures on the evils of “debasing” the dollar — when the main difference between the effects of austerity in Canada and in Greece was precisely that Canada could “debase” its currency, while Greece couldn’t. Oh, and many Republicans hanker for a return to the gold standard, which would effectively put us into a euro-like straitjacket.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/o...-a-lesson-for-republicans-in-the-us.html?_r=0

it sure is...don't be stupid like the Greeks and don't embrace socialism...reduce the size of government and increase individual freedom....works like a charm every timeout is tried...

LOOK, another right winger who didn't read the article and doesn't have a basic understanding of greece.

Wow. If anything it shows that Socialism kills economies. If you look at their policies rather than attacking Republicans for theirs, you will see how closely they match the Liberal Democratic/Socialist line of policy regarding an economy.

 

[auditor0007]

Great post. Of course cons will never understand it. Cons continue to believe that economic growth all derives from what those at the top create, when in fact economic growth comes from the bottom 50% of income earners. If they can't buy goods, the economy is fucked.

Too bad you fucking ignorant Tards (Liberal's / Progressives / Democrats) don't get the concept that bottom 50% has to WORK for their disposable income, wait make that all income.

You are right, if they are not working the economy is fucked.

The ignorance is most definitely on the right. The bottom 50% of income earners account for a whopping 12% of all earnings, and you stupid fuckers blame them for anything and everything that you see as a problem. Most of them actually do work for most of their earnings and you still act like they are the problem because they are trying to just be paid fairly for the work they do. The right has lost complete touch with the reality of the working class in America.

You don't have a clue, your first and major problem is none of you dick sucking faggots and ni$$ers want to work ........................

Seems you are one of those homophobes who is worried about your own sexuality. I've been married twice. My second wife died from leukemia. I raised our three sons by myself and have worked my entire life. Shove it up your ass and rotate it well you pussy. BTW, fuck face, my son is a US Marine.

You';re an unemployed 19yr old 300lb black man in mom's basement.
At least your posts read like that.

Since you have never had anything worthwhile to post, what you think really does not matter.

 

[The Rabbi]

Too bad you fucking ignorant Tards (Liberal's / Progressives / Democrats) don't get the concept that bottom 50% has to WORK for their disposable income, wait make that all income.

You are right, if they are not working the economy is fucked.

The ignorance is most definitely on the right. The bottom 50% of income earners account for a whopping 12% of all earnings, and you stupid fuckers blame them for anything and everything that you see as a problem. Most of them actually do work for most of their earnings and you still act like they are the problem because they are trying to just be paid fairly for the work they do. The right has lost complete touch with the reality of the working class in America.

You don't have a clue, your first and major problem is none of you dick sucking faggots and ni$$ers want to work ........................

Seems you are one of those homophobes who is worried about your own sexuality. I've been married twice. My second wife died from leukemia. I raised our three sons by myself and have worked my entire life. Shove it up your ass and rotate it well you pussy. BTW, fuck face, my son is a US Marine.

You';re an unemployed 19yr old 300lb black man in mom's basement.
At least your posts read like that.

Since you have never had anything worthwhile to post, what you think really does not matter.

Translation: You hit the nail on the head. Where my KFC at, yo?

 

[auditor0007]

It's not what you think it is

Greece is a faraway country with an economy roughly the size of greater Miami, so America has very little direct stake in its ongoing disaster. To the extent that Greece matters to us, it’s mainly about geopolitics: By poisoning relations among Europe’s democracies, the Greek crisis risks depriving the United States of crucial allies.

But Greece has nonetheless played an outsized role in U.S. political debate, as a symbol of the terrible things that will supposedly happen — any day now — unless we stop helping the less fortunate and printing money to fight unemployment. And Greece does indeed offer important lessons to the rest of us. But they’re not the lessons you think, and the people most likely to deliver a Greek-style economic disaster here in America are the very people who love to use Greece as a boogeyman.

To understand the real lessons of Greece, you need to be aware of two crucial points.

Paul Krugman[/paste:font]
Macroeconomics, trade, health care, social policy and politics.

• Ending Greece’s BleedingJUL 5
• Europe’s Many Economic DisastersJUL 3
• Greece Over the BrinkJUN 29
• Hooray for ObamacareJUN 25
• Slavery’s Long ShadowJUN 22

See More »

The first is that the “We’re Greece!” crowd has a truly remarkable track record when it comes to economic forecasting: They’ve been wrong about everything, year after year, but refuse to learn from their mistakes. The people now saying that Greece offers an object lesson in the dangers of government debt, and that America is headed down the same road, are the same people who predicted soaring interest rates and runaway inflation in 2010; then, when it didn’t happen, they predicted soaring rates and runaway inflation in 2011; then, well, you get the picture.

The second is that the story you’ve heard about Greece — that it borrowed too much, and its excessive debt led to the current crisis — is seriously incomplete. Greece did indeed run up too much debt (with a lot of help from irresponsible lenders). But its debt, while high, wasn’t that high by historical standards. What turned Greek debt troubles into catastrophe was Greece’s inability, thanks to the euro, to do what countries with large debts usually do: impose fiscal austerity, yes, but offset it with easy money.

Consider Greece’s situation at the end of 2009, when its debt crisis burst into the open. At that point Greek government debt was near 130 percent of gross domestic product, which is definitely a big number. But it’s by no means unprecedented. As it happens, Greece’s debt ratio in 2009 was about the same as America’s in 1946, just after the war. And Britain’s debt ratio in 1946 was twice as high.

Today, however, Greek debt is over 170 percent of G.D.P. and still rising. Is that because Greece just kept on borrowing? Actually, no — Greek debt is up only 6 percent since 2009, although that’s partly because it received some debt relief in 2012. The main point, however, is that the ratio of debt to G.D.P. is up because G.D.P. is down by more than 20 percent. And why is GDP down? Largely because of the austerity measures Greece’s creditors forced it to impose.

Does this mean that austerity is always self-defeating? No, there are cases — for example, Canada in the 1990s — of countries that slashed their debt while maintaining growth and reducing unemployment. But if you look at how they managed this, it involved combining fiscal austerity with easy money: Canada in the ’90s drastically reduced interest rates, encouraging private spending, while allowing its currency to depreciate, encouraging exports.
Greece, unfortunately, no longer had its own currency when it was forced into drastic fiscal retrenchment. The result was an economic implosion that ended up making the debt problem even worse. Greece’s formula for disaster, in other words, didn’t just involve austerity; it involved the toxic combination of austerity with hard money.

So who wants to impose that kind of toxic policy mix on America? The answer is, most of the Republican Party.

On one side, just about everyone in the G.O.P. demands that we reduce government spending, especially aid to lower-income families. (They also, of course, want to reduce taxes on the rich — but that wouldn’t do much to boost demand for U.S. products.)

On the other side, leading Republicans like Representative Paul Ryan incessantly attack the Federal Reserve for its efforts to boost the economy, delivering solemn lectures on the evils of “debasing” the dollar — when the main difference between the effects of austerity in Canada and in Greece was precisely that Canada could “debase” its currency, while Greece couldn’t. Oh, and many Republicans hanker for a return to the gold standard, which would effectively put us into a euro-like straitjacket.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/o...-a-lesson-for-republicans-in-the-us.html?_r=0

Great post. Of course cons will never understand it. Cons continue to believe that economic growth all derives from what those at the top create, when in fact economic growth comes from the bottom 50% of income earners. If they can't buy goods, the economy is fucked.

LOL! Demonstrating why liberalism fails 100% of the time.
Without innovators and managers the people at the bottom are unemployed. Duh.

The failings of the last three decades are completely due to the idiotic ideology of trickle down economics you dweeb. Trickle down brought us stagnant wages for the masses but made it possible for the very few to create massive wealth for themselves. The economy always has its ups and downs, but seeing the average American's standard of living reduced while the very few at the top see theirs grow ten times over is completely due to trickle down economics.

Since you do not know what "trickle down economics" is, nor could you define it your post is an exercise in stupidity.
Did Bill Clinton support "trickle down economics"?
Did Barack Obama support "trickle down economics"?
Because the economy has stagnated under Obama but did fine under Bush.

The economy did not do fine under Bush. If it hadn't been for the fact that home values were being forced through the roof by bad economic policies, our growth rate under Bush would have been horrible. That doesn't even take into consideration the fact that the economy began its massive implosion under Bush.

As for Clinton, middle class incomes were rising during his administration. That was not all because of him, but it was a combination of good policy where tax revenues were high due to tax rates being set at reasonable rates, and spending was controlled at the same time. Everything was clicking and in great part, it was due to the fact that Republicans and Clinton worked together, despite having differences.