Great News - Gov. Christ Vetoes Teacher Pay Bill

[Truthmatters]

can you imagine the cheating and sabatoge that would take place in the schools.

My sister teaches in FL , is a republican and has amazing sucess raising her kids grade levels.

The last principle that left her school purposely rearaged everyone in classes that they dont normally teach before she left so that the incoming principle would have a shitty record compared to her.

She screwed a WHOLE school full of kids and teachers so she could look good.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

My sister teaches in FL , is a republican and has amazing sucess raising her kids grade levels.

Somehow got the brains in the family. Amazing.

 

[JenyEliza]

can you imagine the cheating and sabatoge that would take place in the schools.

My sister teaches in FL , is a republican and has amazing sucess raising her kids grade levels.

The last principle that left her school purposely rearaged everyone in classes that they dont normally teach before she left so that the incoming principle would have a shitty record compared to her.

She screwed a WHOLE school full of kids and teachers so she could look good.

The last PrinciPAL did what? Huh?

Oh, and punctuation is your friend. Use it properly and your thoughts will be properly conveyed to the reader.

Apparently you're a product of the great FL school system.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Hey, Gov Crist CONGRATS!.

At last someone with enough 'ballz' to begin putting a stop to this tenure BS that allows incompetent teachers, instructors to feed off the system forever regardless of their quality of instruction and inability to impart knowledge to those who desire it.
We need the same for the NJEA here in Jersey and along with the teachers/instructors paying their fair share towards their own health insurance, they get it for almost ZERO cost at the taxpayers expense. My health care costs MORE than my property taxes by a factor of 2.5, of which a little over HALF of the property tax is for SCHOOLS.

A good teacher/instructor is worth their weight, but not when it creates a hardship for the rest of the taxpayers, these arrogant, for the most part, people cry at the drop of a hat and have this feeling of invulnerability, well, they are invulnerable ,when a system that clearly see's that many of them are just plain burned out or don't give a damn while sucking the rest of us dry. And THAT is what must be stopped.

Sorry for the rant, but this continued BS in our educational system where incompetence is continually rewarded with our taxes has gone to far. We need to do exactly what Crist is doing.

 

[bodecea]

Wrong Jen. Unfortunately there are people in this country (and on this board) that would be fine with getting rid of every teacher who makes over $50K a year. Money would be the issue when it came to layoffs - not performance.

And let's just say the teachers who have the most complaints from parents are usually the ones doing their jobs - not the ones who just want to be "popular". If merit raises were based on report cards, what teacher in their right mind would fail a kid? Besides me. lol

Be careful what you wish for. Low salaries, little respect, and intense "test anxiety" are a recipe for disaster. You think it's bad now?

This was a bad, bad law and Crist realized it. Children are not widgets and schools are not factories. If you want accountability - include the students and parents as well.

You bring up an excellent point....and a teacher friend of mine brought this up:

How come the assembly workers at Toyota aren't the ones being held responsible for Toyota's current problems?

 

[bodecea]

3. Entire neighborhoods stand empty in Florida

Terral

Where?

And holy shit on Georgia. School isn't supposed to be prison but they sure have made it into one.

Yes, yes they have.

I have been hauled into Juvenile Court THREE times this school year (by an over-zealous school Social Worker anxious to keep her job and justify her existence) over my son's Swine Flu absences. THREE TIMES....and each time they "dead docket" his case when I show documentation to prove he was not skipping school.

The last time we got all the way to the pee-test and probation officer, before they finally believed me and "dead docketed" his "case again".

Once I found how WHO was filing and re-filing this case against me (and my son), I started crawling up the asses of our Principal, Assistant Principal and the school board. I had to threaten LAWSUIT to get them to back the fuck off.

I expect to receive another summons before the end of the school year. The Sherrif likes to deliver those around 10 or 11 pm, when they pound on the door with (what sounds like) a battering ram and wake the whole apartment building up. Such fun! I get to apologize to my neighbors again for waking them and their kids up over this bullshit.

This law was written with the best of intentions--to "hold parents and students accountable", as a teacher in this thread waxes poetic about doing.

However, my family and I have been absolutely ABUSED by our school system and judicial system through this law.

I have had enough. They summon me to court again, I am bringing my father's army of lawyers with me, and I will paper the county courthouse with lawsuits---aimed personally at those involved in abusing my son, myself and my family. I will seek millions in damages for the harm they have caused our family (and they *have* caused real, documented harm--economically, emotionally and otherwise).

This law was meant to be used to keep TRUANT kids in school, and to make sure the parents got the message that their kids had to attend school. At one point, we had kids missing 40, 50 and 60 days of school, with THIER PARENTS BLESSING.

THOSE are the people this law was aimed at....not parents like me who are working their ass off to keep their kids excited about school, to help them pursue their goals and to get them through to college. I have moved heaven and earth to get my kids into a better school than the high school next door to our run down apartment complex. Right now I am without a car (totaled in a wreck two days before spring break), and they are STILL going to school every day---the NCLB high school is 25 miles away. And they GO.

I triple dog dare the fucking liberal little tart doo-gooder social worker in the guidance office who is desperate to keep her job to come after me again. I'd name her name here, but I'm saving that for the HEFTY lawsuit I will file against her. I'm in need of a nice new car. She'll be buying me one. Probably one apiece for my twins as well.

Enough is e-fucking-nuff!!

Uh huh.

 

[bodecea]

I'm not in FL so I don't know all the ins and outs of what was proposed and vetoed. I wonder though, what alternatives Crist put forward?

Tenure shouldn't be used as a 'job for life, so now I can ride.'

If as in the case of NCLB, there were no 'proportional increases' in test scores tied to pay raises or whatever is involved in this, I agree with your take; ie., if a 6th grade teacher has a student test at 4.6, when the previous year that student tested at 2.0, that's a huge achievement gain. The measurement must be on gain, not grade level.

One problem we're having here, testing is being done in early to mid-October. Considering the first two weeks are 'reviewing and refreshing' the teacher has only been 'teaching' their students a month or less, depending on grade.

There should also be 'exclusion in results' of children that are not capable of academic gains, due to physical or IQ reasons, but nonetheless through 'inclusion' are in age level classrooms.

Georgia does the NCLB testing (called CRCT) in April. We are currently in the middle of CRCT testing. It was all this week, and most of next week.

"Special" children have exemptions or accomodations made for testing, so as not to skew the results.

NCLB has been a savior for me and my family. We got out of an especially bad school district and into a much better one on the NCLB program. I will be forever and eternally grateful for this opportunity!

I'm glad for any real improvements in your schools. From all I've read about NCLB, there were no exclusions made for under grade level performance, regardless of abilities of the child. Thus special ed classes, as well as inclusion classes, are counted just as a regular ed class. That is wrong.

They are....so, with merit pay...what teacher is going to want to teach the special ed classes, the ELD classes, the "just plain low" classes.

 

[bodecea]

Hey, Gov Crist CONGRATS!.

At last someone with enough 'ballz' to begin putting a stop to this tenure BS that allows incompetent teachers, instructors to feed off the system forever regardless of their quality of instruction and inability to impart knowledge to those who desire it.
We need the same for the NJEA here in Jersey and along with the teachers/instructors paying their fair share towards their own health insurance, they get it for almost ZERO cost at the taxpayers expense. My health care costs MORE than my property taxes by a factor of 2.5, of which a little over HALF of the property tax is for SCHOOLS.

A good teacher/instructor is worth their weight, but not when it creates a hardship for the rest of the taxpayers, these arrogant, for the most part, people cry at the drop of a hat and have this feeling of invulnerability, well, they are invulnerable ,when a system that clearly see's that many of them are just plain burned out or don't give a damn while sucking the rest of us dry. And THAT is what must be stopped.

Sorry for the rant, but this continued BS in our educational system where incompetence is continually rewarded with our taxes has gone to far. We need to do exactly what Crist is doing.

If they've got such a sweet deal, why don't you become a teacher and join the gravy train?

 

[Big Fitz]

Gov. Charlie Crist on Thursday killed the bill that prompted sick-outs, sit-ins, street protests and a flood of opposition throughout the state as Republican lawmakers vowed to try again next year — if not sooner.

Calling it "significantly flawed," Crist decried Senate Bill 6, which would link teacher pay to student test scores and eliminate tenure for all new hires, as both overreaching and too vague.

"We must start over," he said.

Gov. Crist vetoes teacher tenure bill - St. Petersburg Times

Just got back from Fla. and this was all over the news. As a special education teacher whose high school students are generally reading at the fifth grade level, I am relieved that Gov. Crist and others see how flawed this idea is.

Better still? Privatize all education. No public schools.

Tenure needs to be tweaked. Pay scales may need to be revamped. But tying salary to test scores is absolutely ridiculous. Why should the 4th grade teacher be penalized because the students had a crappy 3rd grade teacher? Why should high school teachers be penalized for 18 year olds who only come to school twice a week? There's got to be a better way.

Better way? yes.

Incentives. You get a base pay which would be minimum for your state. Then given bonuses for improvement on standardized tests from the year before and against the state and national average. Plus any bonus work you do to help the students as well as certain extra curricular activities. If you get a teacher that just wants to make the minimum fine, put a time limit that they can go without getting bonuses before they are let go as unsuited for the profession.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Ravi's all for poor teachers remaining in Florida classrooms simply because they have "tenure".

I've said it before, I'll say it again. If you do away with Tenure you'll have to find some other perk to bring teachers into the industry.

I know I get job offers at 1.5x to 2x my current salary as a professor. I love my job, but I love my son more. Without the job security from tenure, I'd have to take those jobs. As it is, I can justify staying in a job I love and am successful at because I know I'll have job security for him.

That perk you want was in the bill you're applauding Crist for killing....that perk is called MONEY. Cold hard cash. US Currency.

Bonuses based on teacher performance and student achievement.

WHAT? You scared you can't teach well enough to make the cut and EARN those bonuses and financial incentives like those in the REAL world? The rest of us LOSE our jobs if we perform as poorly as our educational system has for the last 40 years.

We get FIRED.

Obviously you're afraid of pay for performance....that's why you cling to Tenure for dear life.

Chickenshit.

Considering that nearly every state in the Union is cutting funding to higher ed, and that layoffs are all the rage, I'll stick with tenure.

And by the way, I'm very good at my job. You could only wish you were as good as me.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Tenure shouldn't be used as a 'job for life, so now I can ride.'

It isn't. Even in higher ed where Tenure is more ironclad you can be dissmissed immediately for certain types of misconduct, in the case of Financial Extingency, or if your program is closed.

Tenure doesn't mean you can't lose your job, it just means you have some legal recourse to verify why you lost your job and fight it.

 

[Samson]

And let's just say the teachers who have the most complaints from parents are usually the ones doing their jobs - not the ones who just want to be "popular". If merit raises were based on report cards, what teacher in their right mind would fail a kid....... If you want accountability - include the students and parents as well.

Why would we suppose that teachers that are doing their jobs receive the most complaints from parents?

I'm afraid that most teachers don't realize they are PUBLIC SERVANTS. This isn't really their fault, because its never really explained to them. They concentrate, naturally, on the subjects they teach, and teaching methods.....everything is Student Focused.

They forget, that the PUBLIC they serve are the PARENTS. It is very much their responsiblitity to cater to parents. This means more than waiting passively for them to appear on Open House Night.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

They forget, that the PUBLIC they serve are the PARENTS. It is very much their responsiblitity to cater to parents. This means more than waiting passively for them to appear on Open House Night.

Not the Parents. They work with the Parents, but not for them. They work for The Community, which is a different thing than the parents.

Parents say they want standards, but the truth is that Parents want little Timmy to get all A's, be first chair in the Band, starting line up on the football team, and homecoming king. It doesn't matter if Timmy can do that or not, it is what they want.

What the community wants is kids held to standards so that when they finish school they can be functioning citizens. Its the Parents that are often the source of social promotion (Do you know how much grief a parent gives to the teachers if the teacher thinks Timmy can't go on, or shouldn't graduate?), grade inflation (Why isn't Timmy passing!), and many other social woes. Its parents that often complained the loudest about captial punishment in school.

 

[bodecea]

And let's just say the teachers who have the most complaints from parents are usually the ones doing their jobs - not the ones who just want to be "popular". If merit raises were based on report cards, what teacher in their right mind would fail a kid....... If you want accountability - include the students and parents as well.

Why would we suppose that teachers that are doing their jobs receive the most complaints from parents?

I'm afraid that most teachers don't realize they are PUBLIC SERVANTS. This isn't really their fault, because its never really explained to them. They concentrate, naturally, on the subjects they teach, and teaching methods.....everything is Student Focused.

They forget, that the PUBLIC they serve are the PARENTS. It is very much their responsiblitity to cater to parents. This means more than waiting passively for them to appear on Open House Night.

You are right...teachers would have it so much easier if they just gave students "A's" whether they deserve it or not...teachers would have it so much easier if they overlooked tardies, truancies, missing homework etc.

Then they would truely be serving the parents by making the parents happy, wouldn't they?

 

[Samson]

And let's just say the teachers who have the most complaints from parents are usually the ones doing their jobs - not the ones who just want to be "popular". If merit raises were based on report cards, what teacher in their right mind would fail a kid....... If you want accountability - include the students and parents as well.

Why would we suppose that teachers that are doing their jobs receive the most complaints from parents?

I'm afraid that most teachers don't realize they are PUBLIC SERVANTS. This isn't really their fault, because its never really explained to them. They concentrate, naturally, on the subjects they teach, and teaching methods.....everything is Student Focused.

They forget, that the PUBLIC they serve are the PARENTS. It is very much their responsiblitity to cater to parents. This means more than waiting passively for them to appear on Open House Night.

You are right...teachers would have it so much easier if they just gave students "A's" whether they deserve it or not...teachers would have it so much easier if they overlooked tardies, truancies, missing homework etc.

Then they would truely be serving the parents by making the parents happy, wouldn't they?

Sure, and they can very easily do this.

Which is why there must be some way of holding them accountable.

However, I disagree that Parents Are Happy when they see their kid never doing homework, truant, and tardy, but still receiving an "A."

In fact, I just filled out an online survey from my kids school asking me (yes, hard to believe, but I'm a parent), to evaluate the school, programs, teachers, administration, and the board.

Why can't teachers be partially evaluated by parents?

 

[bodecea]

Why would we suppose that teachers that are doing their jobs receive the most complaints from parents?

I'm afraid that most teachers don't realize they are PUBLIC SERVANTS. This isn't really their fault, because its never really explained to them. They concentrate, naturally, on the subjects they teach, and teaching methods.....everything is Student Focused.

They forget, that the PUBLIC they serve are the PARENTS. It is very much their responsiblitity to cater to parents. This means more than waiting passively for them to appear on Open House Night.

You are right...teachers would have it so much easier if they just gave students "A's" whether they deserve it or not...teachers would have it so much easier if they overlooked tardies, truancies, missing homework etc.

Then they would truely be serving the parents by making the parents happy, wouldn't they?

Sure, and they can very easily do this.

Which is why there must be some way of holding them accountable.

However, I disagree that Parents Are Happy when they see their kid never doing homework, truant, and tardy, but still receiving an "A."

In fact, I just filled out an online survey from my kids school asking me (yes, hard to believe, but I'm a parent), to evaluate the school, programs, teachers, administration, and the board.

Why can't teachers be partially evaluated by parents?

You mean the MAJORITY of parents who never get involved in their child's education? You mean the parents who put the school on caller-block? You mean the parents who are never heard from until their kid is failing and then they blame the teacher? You mean the parents who are no-shows for parent conferences? You mean the parents who come with excuses like "my kid is ADD (with no doctor diagnosis) , "my kid is color blind, that's why he can't do his math homework" (my friend got that one this year). You mean the parents that never return calls? You mean the parents who are illiterate themselves (one school in my daughter's Elementary District had 80% parent illiteracy rate)? You mean the parents who don't bother to get their kids to school on time...or at all?

Explain to us the criteria that parents would use to evaluate teachers.

Explain to us the training parents would go thru to make a legitimate evaluation.

 

[Samson]

You are right...teachers would have it so much easier if they just gave students "A's" whether they deserve it or not...teachers would have it so much easier if they overlooked tardies, truancies, missing homework etc.

Then they would truely be serving the parents by making the parents happy, wouldn't they?

Sure, and they can very easily do this.

Which is why there must be some way of holding them accountable.

However, I disagree that Parents Are Happy when they see their kid never doing homework, truant, and tardy, but still receiving an "A."

In fact, I just filled out an online survey from my kids school asking me (yes, hard to believe, but I'm a parent), to evaluate the school, programs, teachers, administration, and the board.

Why can't teachers be partially evaluated by parents?

You mean the MAJORITY of parents who never get involved in their child's education? You mean the parents who put the school on caller-block? You mean the parents who are never heard from until their kid is failing and then they blame the teacher? You mean the parents who are no-shows for parent conferences? You mean the parents who come with excuses like "my kid is ADD (with no doctor diagnosis) , "my kid is color blind, that's why he can't do his math homework" (my friend got that one this year). You mean the parents that never return calls? You mean the parents who are illiterate themselves (one school in my daughter's Elementary District had 80% parent illiteracy rate)? You mean the parents who don't bother to get their kids to school on time...or at all?

Explain to us the criteria that parents would use to evaluate teachers.

Explain to us the training parents would go thru to make a legitimate evaluation.

Stop hyperventillating a moment.

Parents are usually high school graduates: They KNOW what goes on! Training? HA!

The criteria used in the survey I just completed was pretty simple: Do you think your kid is learning anything? Then you have a range of responses from "Very Much Agree" to "Very Much Disagree."

I'm not going to go through every excuse a parent gives for not knowing WTF is going on at school with their kid, but if a teacher's doing their job, then they should have A LOT of communication with parents: particularly parents whose kid cannot, or will not do the work.

If teachers haven't troubled themselves to communicate and remedy the situation with these parents before the end-of-the-fucking-YEAR survey, then they deserve whatever evaluation they get.

There are very few parents that will not appreciate a teachers efforts to involve them in their kid's school. Before you FREAK OUT: I DIDN'T SAY there were NO parents like this, and I also never said Teacher's evals should ONLY depend on parent evaluations.

 

[chanel]

Samson - on an avg year, I see about 2 parents at our three conference nights. A few years I had zero. The only time I ever get a parent phone call is when a student fails or is suspended. Parents do not call principals to say what a great job the teacher is doing. Six of my seniors will not be graduating. Parents who never paid attention to the report cards or progress reports will suddenly wake up and ultimately blame the teacher. I anticipate pressure to change grades by mom, guidance, and or the administration. And I will not. That's why we need tenure. Its a necessary evil. In NJ - everyone graduates! Regardless...

Perhaps evaluations could be more objective. But test scores alone are ludicrous.

 

[Bfgrn]

Ironic, America HAD the best public education system in the world at the SAME time unions were thriving and supported by BOTH political parties.

NOW, our public education system is sinking like a rock, at the very SAME time unions are vilified and being crushed by a 30 year war against unions by the right and Republicans...


Worse Than Union Busting
Mary Beth Maxwell
October 25, 2006

Mary Beth Maxwell is executive director of American Rights at Work, a national labor policy organization in Washington, D.C. The organization recently launched a website: antiunionnetwork.org.


A television ad playing in Michigan this September seemed innocent enough: an adorable little girl in braids, a schoolroom filled to the brim with the latest, colorful learning aids and enthusiastic students eager to learn. But wait; the pigtailed girl is giving a report on union malfeasance. The teacher appears shocked to hear that her union dues support worker-friendly political candidates. Seriously?

The nationwide arrival of commercials like this one—often accompanied by full-page newspaper and radio ads—should raise eyebrows. This isn’t a promo for a new parody on the next installment of "Saturday Night Live" or "The Daily Show." The TV spots are the handiwork of a powerful, well-financed web of extremist, conservative organizations and well-paid spin doctors on a mission to dismantle labor unions.

The ads beg the question: Who’s willing to invest millions to undermine the right of teachers, nurses and other workers in America to earn a decent living and protect their interests in the workplace? The answer is far less innocent than ponytails and reads like a page torn out of Christopher Buckley’s bestseller, Thank You for Smoking .

The over-the-top mudslinging by the Center for Union Facts, the National Right to Work Committee and other anti-union groups is nothing more than an attempt to pull the wool over our eyes, hiding the real crisis in the American workplace. Too many workers in the U.S. still can’t adequately provide basic necessities for their families, protect themselves from workplace hazards or take care of themselves when they get old or sick. The firings, intimidation and harassment that often befall workers attempting to exercise freedoms of speech and association by forming unions are threats to our democracy. When faced with union organizing drives, 30 percent of employers terminate pro-union workers, 40 percent threaten to close a worksite if a union prevails and 51 percent coerce workers into opposing unions with bribery and favoritism.

The motives behind assailing organized workers are both financial and ideological. Union-busting is big business. Just ask Center for Union Facts founder and D.C. mercenary lobbyist Rick Berman. He’s the mastermind behind the ads and has earned a living attacking other public interest groups—like Mothers Against Drunk Driving and the Centers for Disease Control—for clients including the alcohol and fast food industries. Although he won’t reveal who is bankrolling CUF, attacking unions seems to be the source of his latest windfall.

And Berman isn’t the only one profiting from conspiring to bring about the demise of worker-built organizations. Search for “union buster” on Google and peruse over 3 million hits. The proliferation of “union avoidance” consulting has resulted in 82 percent of employers hiring help to fight worker organizing drives.

But the assault on unions goes deeper than the dollar. It is bolstered by a long-standing conservative political objective to eradicate unions. Right-wingers know something the rest of us seem to have forgotten: Workers still want unions because they are a powerful deterrent to poverty and unfettered corporate greed. When conservative political strategist Grover Norquist says, “We’re going to crush labor as a political entity” and ultimately “break unions,” it isn’t because unions aren’t relevant anymore. The right knows that unions act as the nation’s conscience by advancing civil rights, environmental protections and other causes of equality, justice and fair play far beyond the workplace.

Whole article...TomPaine.com - Worse Than Union Busting

Education is the cheap defense of nations.
Edmund Burke

 

[Samson]

Samson - on an avg year, I see about 2 parents at our three conference nights. A few years I had zero.

The only time I ever get a parent phone call is when a student fails or is suspended.

Parents do not call principals to say what a great job the teacher is doing. Six of my seniors will not be graduating.

Parents who never paid attention to the report cards or progress reports will suddenly wake up and ultimately blame the teacher. I anticipate pressure to change grades by mom, guidance, and or the administration. And I will not. That's why we need tenure. Its a necessary evil. In NJ - everyone graduates! Regardless...

Perhaps evaluations could be more objective. But test scores alone are ludicrous.

Well, like I said originally, I'm not surprised at what you're saying:

1. Parents did not come to see you

2. Parents did not call you

3. Parents did not pay attention to report cards/progress reports

And Please, Its NOT YOUR FAULT that you haven't been trained. As an Administrator, it is MY JOB to make sure teachers know what their job is. It appears that your principal is doing a shitty job.

This is what I would do, if I were him:

1. You will call every parent in the beginning of the year and introduce yourself.
2. I will not discuss a behaviour problem you have in the classroom unless you have A. Called the parent (and documented the time and date), B. Applied your own Behaviour Modification Plan (again, with documentation). Obviously, if you, or students are in danger, then I wanna hear about it.
3. No failing report card grade will be given unless you implement a Plan For Success that the parent has signed.
4. No failing progress report grade will be given unless the parent has been phoned, and you have arranged to meet the parent (again, documented)

TEACHERS NEED TO TAKE CONTROL OF PARENTS OF KIDS IN THEIR CLASS