God and the suffering of Jesus

[BluePhantom]

So I have been thinking a lot about God and the crucifixion. For the sake of this question let's assume that Jesus was God or at the very least God resided within Jesus through the Holy Spirit during His ministry. It creates a question about God suffering at the hands of man through Jesus. This was a really big issue in early Christianity and one of the reasons why there were so many different forms of Christianity in the early church.

The question was "if Jesus was God, and Jesus suffered at the hands of man, did man cause God to physically suffer as well?" There was a lot of debate. Some said that Jesus was God, but his physical form was merely an illusion and therefore God did not suffer because you can't harm an illusion. Some apocryphal gospels even depict Jesus as laughing during the crucifixion to really make this point stick. Some said that God entered Jesus either at birth or at his baptism by John the Baptist and left Jesus before His death to avoid the suffering. The thought here was that man cannot possibly harm God so God must have left before any actual harm befell Jesus. Still others argued that Jesus was God and the whole point was for God to experience what it was to be a man. Therefore, God suffered all the same pains and agonies as Jesus did during the passion and crucifixion.

As a point of Biblical history, these schools of thought (as well as others) created rivalries and completely separate branches of early Christianity such as the Gnostics, Ebinonites, Marcionites, proto-orthodox, etc. There were tons of them. To some degree all those different points of view remain within different branches of Christianity.

So I ask this question because I am interested in what most people think of have been taught. I know my point of view on this, but I am very curious to see what others think. For those who are atheist...yeah we already know your point of view. Bugger off.

Myself, I've understood the Trinity to be that the Holy Spirit and Jesus to be OF God, not necessarily three separate manifestations of the same Being.
(kind of like His right and left hands)

Yes that would be accurate. The potato explanation is bad theology but decent understanding.

 

[hortysir]

That really doesn't make much sense to me at all, TBH.

well don't worry. You are not alone. Personally, I endorse the Trinity but I understand completely how people look at it and go "HUH?!?!?"

Well, how can all of those things be God? I always understood that God was a separate entity, perfect and like no other.

Ok the best way I can explain it is to think of a french fry press. So you have a press and you put a potato on top of a cutting die and you start to press the potato through the die to make french fries. Follow me? But stop halfway through. Now on the top side of the die you have a solid potato and on the bottom you have individual cut fries. But they are still connected through the holes in the die. So think of it like that. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are like the individual fries on the bottom of the cutter, God is the potato on the top, but they are still all connected and all the same potato.

So...essentially....God is a potato.

Follow?

Does that make the devil the hot potato?

Well see...that's another point that is interesting. All those sects had different ideas about the Devil too. Some didn't believe in him at all (count me among them), some actually thought that the world was not created by God but created by Satan. The idea was that if God had created the world, and God being all-powerful, Satan would have never been able to take it over and make it so evil. Therefore, Satan created the world and God will eventually conquer it when he gets good and ready. Again, there were all sorts of beliefs. We only know the ones we know because those were the traditions that survived. After the proto-orthodox won the "war" and Theodosius made Christianity the official religion of Rome, he embraced the proto-orthodox view (which is what comes to us today). As it progressed to the Middle Ages, anyone who advanced any other view found themselves at the center of a bonfire. So naturally....the other views died out and only the proto-orthodox remains. That is what Christians believe today

To the "satan" title, I think it's actually Lucifer is his name but he's the 'great' Satan, in that he was the lease of the 1/3 that rebelled against God

 

[hortysir]

Not lease......leader.
Autospell got me

 

[ChrisL]

So I have been thinking a lot about God and the crucifixion. For the sake of this question let's assume that Jesus was God or at the very least God resided within Jesus through the Holy Spirit during His ministry. It creates a question about God suffering at the hands of man through Jesus. This was a really big issue in early Christianity and one of the reasons why there were so many different forms of Christianity in the early church.

The question was "if Jesus was God, and Jesus suffered at the hands of man, did man cause God to physically suffer as well?" There was a lot of debate. Some said that Jesus was God, but his physical form was merely an illusion and therefore God did not suffer because you can't harm an illusion. Some apocryphal gospels even depict Jesus as laughing during the crucifixion to really make this point stick. Some said that God entered Jesus either at birth or at his baptism by John the Baptist and left Jesus before His death to avoid the suffering. The thought here was that man cannot possibly harm God so God must have left before any actual harm befell Jesus. Still others argued that Jesus was God and the whole point was for God to experience what it was to be a man. Therefore, God suffered all the same pains and agonies as Jesus did during the passion and crucifixion.

As a point of Biblical history, these schools of thought (as well as others) created rivalries and completely separate branches of early Christianity such as the Gnostics, Ebinonites, Marcionites, proto-orthodox, etc. There were tons of them. To some degree all those different points of view remain within different branches of Christianity.

So I ask this question because I am interested in what most people think of have been taught. I know my point of view on this, but I am very curious to see what others think. For those who are atheist...yeah we already know your point of view. Bugger off.

Myself, I've understood the Trinity to be that the Holy Spirit and Jesus to be OF God, not necessarily three separate manifestations of the same Being.
(kind of like His right and left hands)

Yes that would be accurate. The potato explanation is bad theology but decent understanding.

I liked the potato explanation! I love potatoes!

 

[BluePhantom]

well don't worry. You are not alone. Personally, I endorse the Trinity but I understand completely how people look at it and go "HUH?!?!?"

Well, how can all of those things be God? I always understood that God was a separate entity, perfect and like no other.

Ok the best way I can explain it is to think of a french fry press. So you have a press and you put a potato on top of a cutting die and you start to press the potato through the die to make french fries. Follow me? But stop halfway through. Now on the top side of the die you have a solid potato and on the bottom you have individual cut fries. But they are still connected through the holes in the die. So think of it like that. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are like the individual fries on the bottom of the cutter, God is the potato on the top, but they are still all connected and all the same potato.

So...essentially....God is a potato.

Follow?

Does that make the devil the hot potato?

Well see...that's another point that is interesting. All those sects had different ideas about the Devil too. Some didn't believe in him at all (count me among them), some actually thought that the world was not created by God but created by Satan. The idea was that if God had created the world, and God being all-powerful, Satan would have never been able to take it over and make it so evil. Therefore, Satan created the world and God will eventually conquer it when he gets good and ready. Again, there were all sorts of beliefs. We only know the ones we know because those were the traditions that survived. After the proto-orthodox won the "war" and Theodosius made Christianity the official religion of Rome, he embraced the proto-orthodox view (which is what comes to us today). As it progressed to the Middle Ages, anyone who advanced any other view found themselves at the center of a bonfire. So naturally....the other views died out and only the proto-orthodox remains. That is what Christians believe today

To the "satan" title, I think it's actually Lucifer is his name but he's the 'great' Satan, in that he was the lease of the 1/3 that rebelled against God

No you have it backwards. Not a big deal. Just Wiki "Lucifer". I am sure it is in there somewhere. I usually don't recognize Wiki as a legitimate source but we're not in a technical debate here so it will do for now.

 

[ChrisL]

Well, how can all of those things be God? I always understood that God was a separate entity, perfect and like no other.

Ok the best way I can explain it is to think of a french fry press. So you have a press and you put a potato on top of a cutting die and you start to press the potato through the die to make french fries. Follow me? But stop halfway through. Now on the top side of the die you have a solid potato and on the bottom you have individual cut fries. But they are still connected through the holes in the die. So think of it like that. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are like the individual fries on the bottom of the cutter, God is the potato on the top, but they are still all connected and all the same potato.

So...essentially....God is a potato.

Follow?

Does that make the devil the hot potato?

Well see...that's another point that is interesting. All those sects had different ideas about the Devil too. Some didn't believe in him at all (count me among them), some actually thought that the world was not created by God but created by Satan. The idea was that if God had created the world, and God being all-powerful, Satan would have never been able to take it over and make it so evil. Therefore, Satan created the world and God will eventually conquer it when he gets good and ready. Again, there were all sorts of beliefs. We only know the ones we know because those were the traditions that survived. After the proto-orthodox won the "war" and Theodosius made Christianity the official religion of Rome, he embraced the proto-orthodox view (which is what comes to us today). As it progressed to the Middle Ages, anyone who advanced any other view found themselves at the center of a bonfire. So naturally....the other views died out and only the proto-orthodox remains. That is what Christians believe today

To the "satan" title, I think it's actually Lucifer is his name but he's the 'great' Satan, in that he was the lease of the 1/3 that rebelled against God

No you have it backwards. Not a big deal. Just Wiki "Lucifer". I am sure it is in there somewhere. I usually don't recognize Wiki as a legitimate source but we're not in a technical debate here so it will do for now.

If someone uses Wiki, you just need to check the references for that particular article. That's what I usually do. Some of it is legit, some not so much.

 

[BluePhantom]

So I have been thinking a lot about God and the crucifixion. For the sake of this question let's assume that Jesus was God or at the very least God resided within Jesus through the Holy Spirit during His ministry. It creates a question about God suffering at the hands of man through Jesus. This was a really big issue in early Christianity and one of the reasons why there were so many different forms of Christianity in the early church.

The question was "if Jesus was God, and Jesus suffered at the hands of man, did man cause God to physically suffer as well?" There was a lot of debate. Some said that Jesus was God, but his physical form was merely an illusion and therefore God did not suffer because you can't harm an illusion. Some apocryphal gospels even depict Jesus as laughing during the crucifixion to really make this point stick. Some said that God entered Jesus either at birth or at his baptism by John the Baptist and left Jesus before His death to avoid the suffering. The thought here was that man cannot possibly harm God so God must have left before any actual harm befell Jesus. Still others argued that Jesus was God and the whole point was for God to experience what it was to be a man. Therefore, God suffered all the same pains and agonies as Jesus did during the passion and crucifixion.

As a point of Biblical history, these schools of thought (as well as others) created rivalries and completely separate branches of early Christianity such as the Gnostics, Ebinonites, Marcionites, proto-orthodox, etc. There were tons of them. To some degree all those different points of view remain within different branches of Christianity.

So I ask this question because I am interested in what most people think of have been taught. I know my point of view on this, but I am very curious to see what others think. For those who are atheist...yeah we already know your point of view. Bugger off.

Myself, I've understood the Trinity to be that the Holy Spirit and Jesus to be OF God, not necessarily three separate manifestations of the same Being.
(kind of like His right and left hands)

Yes that would be accurate. The potato explanation is bad theology but decent understanding.

I liked the potato explanation! I love potatoes!

Sounds like the title of a best selling book. "God is a Potato" Oh my potatoes in my garden are almost ready....Nothing better than potatoes right when you dig them up and eat them...well except broccoli. Ok funny story...totally off topic...Trinity and I (oh...TrinityPower is my wife if you didn't know) grew some broccoli one year and I am a chef (well...was) and I do Chinese really well. So I made beef and broccoli from the broccoli we grew. Now mind you when it hit our mouths it was like 20 minutes ago it was still on the plant so it does get fresher. So we are eating this and looking at each other like "My God...this is incredible". Well Trinity won't eat Chinese out anymore. She demands I cook it because the rest is crap as she says.

A nice little ego rub for my fantastic cooking, but a lot of extra work for me.

 

[BluePhantom]

Ok the best way I can explain it is to think of a french fry press. So you have a press and you put a potato on top of a cutting die and you start to press the potato through the die to make french fries. Follow me? But stop halfway through. Now on the top side of the die you have a solid potato and on the bottom you have individual cut fries. But they are still connected through the holes in the die. So think of it like that. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are like the individual fries on the bottom of the cutter, God is the potato on the top, but they are still all connected and all the same potato.

So...essentially....God is a potato.

Follow?

Does that make the devil the hot potato?

Well see...that's another point that is interesting. All those sects had different ideas about the Devil too. Some didn't believe in him at all (count me among them), some actually thought that the world was not created by God but created by Satan. The idea was that if God had created the world, and God being all-powerful, Satan would have never been able to take it over and make it so evil. Therefore, Satan created the world and God will eventually conquer it when he gets good and ready. Again, there were all sorts of beliefs. We only know the ones we know because those were the traditions that survived. After the proto-orthodox won the "war" and Theodosius made Christianity the official religion of Rome, he embraced the proto-orthodox view (which is what comes to us today). As it progressed to the Middle Ages, anyone who advanced any other view found themselves at the center of a bonfire. So naturally....the other views died out and only the proto-orthodox remains. That is what Christians believe today

To the "satan" title, I think it's actually Lucifer is his name but he's the 'great' Satan, in that he was the lease of the 1/3 that rebelled against God

No you have it backwards. Not a big deal. Just Wiki "Lucifer". I am sure it is in there somewhere. I usually don't recognize Wiki as a legitimate source but we're not in a technical debate here so it will do for now.

If someone uses Wiki, you just need to check the references for that particular article. That's what I usually do. Some of it is legit, some not so much.

Yeah I always told my students the same thing. Wiki is good for getting leads. Read what it says on Wiki then ignore it and start reading the references of what interests you. Wiki itself sucks. Wiki's references are a damn good start

 

[Fat Bastardo]

Interesting. I am one of the ones who always thought the names were just interchangeable, perhaps of different origin or something. I always understood Lucifer to mean Prince of Darkness or something like that.

Well actually you are right. The "Prince of Darkness" comes from the "morning star" (or Lucifer in Greek). When people call him the Prince of Darkness it is that morning star, royal reference they are drawing on (although most don't realize that)...but that's where the "prince" part came from. Although the Bible never states it like this, you could think of Satan Lucifer as being very similar to Jesus Christ. A name and then a title. Although now that I think of it, I don't think there is anywhere in the Bible where Jesus is specifically called "Jesus Christ" either. I will have to look into that

BluePhantom said, "I don't think there is anywhere in the Bible where Jesus is specifically called "Jesus Christ" either."

1 Corinthians 1:7 Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you think that maybe it would be a good idea to actually no something about the subject upon which you are pontificating? Have you actually read the Bible that you pretend to know so much about?

 

[ChrisL]

So I have been thinking a lot about God and the crucifixion. For the sake of this question let's assume that Jesus was God or at the very least God resided within Jesus through the Holy Spirit during His ministry. It creates a question about God suffering at the hands of man through Jesus. This was a really big issue in early Christianity and one of the reasons why there were so many different forms of Christianity in the early church.

The question was "if Jesus was God, and Jesus suffered at the hands of man, did man cause God to physically suffer as well?" There was a lot of debate. Some said that Jesus was God, but his physical form was merely an illusion and therefore God did not suffer because you can't harm an illusion. Some apocryphal gospels even depict Jesus as laughing during the crucifixion to really make this point stick. Some said that God entered Jesus either at birth or at his baptism by John the Baptist and left Jesus before His death to avoid the suffering. The thought here was that man cannot possibly harm God so God must have left before any actual harm befell Jesus. Still others argued that Jesus was God and the whole point was for God to experience what it was to be a man. Therefore, God suffered all the same pains and agonies as Jesus did during the passion and crucifixion.

As a point of Biblical history, these schools of thought (as well as others) created rivalries and completely separate branches of early Christianity such as the Gnostics, Ebinonites, Marcionites, proto-orthodox, etc. There were tons of them. To some degree all those different points of view remain within different branches of Christianity.

So I ask this question because I am interested in what most people think of have been taught. I know my point of view on this, but I am very curious to see what others think. For those who are atheist...yeah we already know your point of view. Bugger off.

Myself, I've understood the Trinity to be that the Holy Spirit and Jesus to be OF God, not necessarily three separate manifestations of the same Being.
(kind of like His right and left hands)

Yes that would be accurate. The potato explanation is bad theology but decent understanding.

I liked the potato explanation! I love potatoes!

Sounds like the title of a best selling book. "God is a Potato" Oh my potatoes in my garden are almost ready....Nothing better than potatoes right when you dig them up and eat them...well except broccoli. Ok funny story...totally off topic...Trinity and I (oh...TrinityPower is my wife if you didn't know) grew some broccoli one year and I am a chef (well...was) and I do Chinese really well. So I made beef and broccoli from the broccoli we grew. Now mind you when it hit our mouths it was like 20 minutes ago it was still on the plant so it does get fresher. So we are eating this and looking at each other like "My God...this is incredible". Well Trinity won't eat Chinese out anymore. She demands I cook it because the rest is crap as she says.

A nice little ego rub for my fantastic cooking, but a lot of extra work for me.

I've never had broccoli right out of a garden before. I do try to buy fresh but a lot of times I will just use frozen because it lasts longer. There is no room for a garden where I live.

OMG! I had no idea that you two were a couple! The things you learn! You guys are pretty sneaky!

 

[ChrisL]

Interesting. I am one of the ones who always thought the names were just interchangeable, perhaps of different origin or something. I always understood Lucifer to mean Prince of Darkness or something like that.

Well actually you are right. The "Prince of Darkness" comes from the "morning star" (or Lucifer in Greek). When people call him the Prince of Darkness it is that morning star, royal reference they are drawing on (although most don't realize that)...but that's where the "prince" part came from. Although the Bible never states it like this, you could think of Satan Lucifer as being very similar to Jesus Christ. A name and then a title. Although now that I think of it, I don't think there is anywhere in the Bible where Jesus is specifically called "Jesus Christ" either. I will have to look into that

BluePhantom said, "I don't think there is anywhere in the Bible where Jesus is specifically called "Jesus Christ" either."

1 Corinthians 1:7 Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you think that maybe it would be a good idea to actually no something about the subject upon which you are pontificating? Have you actually read the Bible that you pretend to know so much about?

I've read some of it. Give the guy a break! There is a LOT of information to remember!

 

[Fat Bastardo]

well don't worry. You are not alone. Personally, I endorse the Trinity but I understand completely how people look at it and go "HUH?!?!?"

Well, how can all of those things be God? I always understood that God was a separate entity, perfect and like no other.

Ok the best way I can explain it is to think of a french fry press. So you have a press and you put a potato on top of a cutting die and you start to press the potato through the die to make french fries. Follow me? But stop halfway through. Now on the top side of the die you have a solid potato and on the bottom you have individual cut fries. But they are still connected through the holes in the die. So think of it like that. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are like the individual fries on the bottom of the cutter, God is the potato on the top, but they are still all connected and all the same potato.

So...essentially....God is a potato.

Follow?

Does that make the devil the hot potato?

Well see...that's another point that is interesting. All those sects had different ideas about the Devil too. Some didn't believe in him at all (count me among them), some actually thought that the world was not created by God but created by Satan. The idea was that if God had created the world, and God being all-powerful, Satan would have never been able to take it over and make it so evil. Therefore, Satan created the world and God will eventually conquer it when he gets good and ready. Again, there were all sorts of beliefs. We only know the ones we know because those were the traditions that survived. After the proto-orthodox won the "war" and Theodosius made Christianity the official religion of Rome, he embraced the proto-orthodox view (which is what comes to us today). As it progressed to the Middle Ages, anyone who advanced any other view found themselves at the center of a bonfire. So naturally....the other views died out and only the proto-orthodox remains. That is what Christians believe today

To the "satan" title, I think it's actually Lucifer is his name but he's the 'great' Satan, in that he was the lease of the 1/3 that rebelled against God

Lucifer was God's favorite and beautiful angel (Ezekiel 28:1-19), that being said he was ONLY an angel, an angel created by God (Colossians 1:16).

 

[ChrisL]

Well, how can all of those things be God? I always understood that God was a separate entity, perfect and like no other.

Ok the best way I can explain it is to think of a french fry press. So you have a press and you put a potato on top of a cutting die and you start to press the potato through the die to make french fries. Follow me? But stop halfway through. Now on the top side of the die you have a solid potato and on the bottom you have individual cut fries. But they are still connected through the holes in the die. So think of it like that. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are like the individual fries on the bottom of the cutter, God is the potato on the top, but they are still all connected and all the same potato.

So...essentially....God is a potato.

Follow?

Does that make the devil the hot potato?

Well see...that's another point that is interesting. All those sects had different ideas about the Devil too. Some didn't believe in him at all (count me among them), some actually thought that the world was not created by God but created by Satan. The idea was that if God had created the world, and God being all-powerful, Satan would have never been able to take it over and make it so evil. Therefore, Satan created the world and God will eventually conquer it when he gets good and ready. Again, there were all sorts of beliefs. We only know the ones we know because those were the traditions that survived. After the proto-orthodox won the "war" and Theodosius made Christianity the official religion of Rome, he embraced the proto-orthodox view (which is what comes to us today). As it progressed to the Middle Ages, anyone who advanced any other view found themselves at the center of a bonfire. So naturally....the other views died out and only the proto-orthodox remains. That is what Christians believe today

To the "satan" title, I think it's actually Lucifer is his name but he's the 'great' Satan, in that he was the lease of the 1/3 that rebelled against God

Lucifer was God's favorite and beautiful angel (Ezekiel 28:1-19), that being said he was ONLY an angel, an angel created by God (Colossians 1:16).

Well then why can't God just strike him down with a lightening bolt or something?

 

[BluePhantom]

[
I've never had broccoli right out of a garden before. I do try to buy fresh but a lot of times I will just use frozen because it lasts longer. There is no room for a garden where I live.

OMG! I had no idea that you two were a couple! The things you learn! You guys are pretty sneaky!

Depending on what you are doing with it frozen has its place. Nothing beats convenience after a long day.

Oh yeah...Trinity and I have been together for about 8 years or so. Nailing down an exact date is hard...it's complicated. We are not on lovey dovey terms right now though since the SCOTUS ruling. We are on different sides of the issue and it's a topic that has inspired some real spice in our marriage. We are both Christians and love God and Jesus and each other, but we read the Bible very differently. We try to inspire each other to greater understanding (and I have always argued that she has taught me more than I have taught her) and then we try to get out of each other's way, but some issues are so hot that it's like throwing a pack of cherry bombs down the john. She is not very pleased with me right now and I am doing my best not to gloat

 

[BluePhantom]

Ok the best way I can explain it is to think of a french fry press. So you have a press and you put a potato on top of a cutting die and you start to press the potato through the die to make french fries. Follow me? But stop halfway through. Now on the top side of the die you have a solid potato and on the bottom you have individual cut fries. But they are still connected through the holes in the die. So think of it like that. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are like the individual fries on the bottom of the cutter, God is the potato on the top, but they are still all connected and all the same potato.

So...essentially....God is a potato.

Follow?

Does that make the devil the hot potato?

Well see...that's another point that is interesting. All those sects had different ideas about the Devil too. Some didn't believe in him at all (count me among them), some actually thought that the world was not created by God but created by Satan. The idea was that if God had created the world, and God being all-powerful, Satan would have never been able to take it over and make it so evil. Therefore, Satan created the world and God will eventually conquer it when he gets good and ready. Again, there were all sorts of beliefs. We only know the ones we know because those were the traditions that survived. After the proto-orthodox won the "war" and Theodosius made Christianity the official religion of Rome, he embraced the proto-orthodox view (which is what comes to us today). As it progressed to the Middle Ages, anyone who advanced any other view found themselves at the center of a bonfire. So naturally....the other views died out and only the proto-orthodox remains. That is what Christians believe today

To the "satan" title, I think it's actually Lucifer is his name but he's the 'great' Satan, in that he was the lease of the 1/3 that rebelled against God

Lucifer was God's favorite and beautiful angel (Ezekiel 28:1-19), that being said he was ONLY an angel, an angel created by God (Colossians 1:16).

Well then why can't God just strike him down with a lightening bolt or something?

Well...yet again....another long story. Satan didn't exist in early Judaism. The early Jews didn't have any concept of Satan. It was not until the Babylonian exile that the concept of Satan started to be developed. This is exactly why I don't believe in his existence. See...the covenant between the Jews and God guaranteed peace and lordship over the Holy Land for the Jews if they followed His Law. A time came where their empire started to struggle and they wondered why God was not protecting them. They decided (rightly so) that it was their fault because they were not keeping the Law so God was not bound to honor His part of the deal and protect them.

But then they started to really follow the Law and they did it well and still they suffered. They didn't understand why so they started to develop the idea of a divine being that was the antithesis of God. He was the opposite and they were locked in a struggle for mankind. As time and tradition developed, Satan got more and more dominant. This is why in the Old Testament God is such a hard ass and in the New Testament He is such a wonderful guy.

The concept of Satan did not start to develop until the books of the Old Testament were almost all written so all things were attributed to God whether they be good or bad. By the time the books of the New Testament were written, the concept of Satan had taken hold so all positive attributes were given to God and all negative attributes were given to Satan. But Satan was never part of the original theology. That came centuries later as a way to explain suffering.

 

[ChrisL]

[
I've never had broccoli right out of a garden before. I do try to buy fresh but a lot of times I will just use frozen because it lasts longer. There is no room for a garden where I live.

OMG! I had no idea that you two were a couple! The things you learn! You guys are pretty sneaky!

Depending on what you are doing with it frozen has its place. Nothing beats convenience after a long day.

Oh yeah...Trinity and I have been together for about 8 years or so. Nailing down an exact date is hard...it's complicated. We are not on lovey dovey terms right now though since the SCOTUS ruling. We are on different sides of the issue and it's a topic that has inspired some real spice in our marriage. We are both Christians and love God and Jesus and each other, but we read the Bible very differently. We try to inspire each other to greater understanding (and I have always argued that she has taught me more than I have taught her) and then we try to get out of each other's way, but some issues are so hot that it's like throwing a pack of cherry bombs down the john. She is not very pleased with me right now and I am doing my best not to gloat

Nothing wrong with a little spice in your marriage! At least it's not boring, right?

 

[ChrisL]

Does that make the devil the hot potato?

Well see...that's another point that is interesting. All those sects had different ideas about the Devil too. Some didn't believe in him at all (count me among them), some actually thought that the world was not created by God but created by Satan. The idea was that if God had created the world, and God being all-powerful, Satan would have never been able to take it over and make it so evil. Therefore, Satan created the world and God will eventually conquer it when he gets good and ready. Again, there were all sorts of beliefs. We only know the ones we know because those were the traditions that survived. After the proto-orthodox won the "war" and Theodosius made Christianity the official religion of Rome, he embraced the proto-orthodox view (which is what comes to us today). As it progressed to the Middle Ages, anyone who advanced any other view found themselves at the center of a bonfire. So naturally....the other views died out and only the proto-orthodox remains. That is what Christians believe today

To the "satan" title, I think it's actually Lucifer is his name but he's the 'great' Satan, in that he was the lease of the 1/3 that rebelled against God

Lucifer was God's favorite and beautiful angel (Ezekiel 28:1-19), that being said he was ONLY an angel, an angel created by God (Colossians 1:16).

Well then why can't God just strike him down with a lightening bolt or something?

Well...yet again....another long story. Satan didn't exist in early Judaism. The early Jews didn't have any concept of Satan. It was not until the Babylonian exile that the concept of Satan started to be developed. This is exactly why I don't believe in his existence. See...the covenant between the Jews and God guaranteed peace and lordship over the Holy Land for the Jews if they followed His Law. A time came where their empire started to struggle and they wondered why God was not protecting them. They decided (rightly so) that it was their fault because they were not keeping the Law so God was not bound to honor His part of the deal and protect them.

But then they started to really follow the Law and they did it well and still they suffered. They didn't understand why so they started to develop the idea of a divine being that was the antithesis of God. He was the opposite and they were locked in a struggle for mankind. As time and tradition developed, Satan got more and more dominant. This is why in the Old Testament God is such a hard ass and in the New Testament He is such a wonderful guy.

The concept of Satan did not start to develop until the books of the Old Testament were almost all written so all things were attributed to God whether they be good or bad. By the time the books of the New Testament were written, the concept of Satan had taken hold so all positive attributes were given to God and all negative attributes were given to Satan. But Satan was never part of the original theology. That came centuries later as a way to explain suffering.

Hmm. Very interesting stuff. I've never heard some of these stories.

 

[BluePhantom]

[
I've never had broccoli right out of a garden before. I do try to buy fresh but a lot of times I will just use frozen because it lasts longer. There is no room for a garden where I live.

OMG! I had no idea that you two were a couple! The things you learn! You guys are pretty sneaky!

Depending on what you are doing with it frozen has its place. Nothing beats convenience after a long day.

Oh yeah...Trinity and I have been together for about 8 years or so. Nailing down an exact date is hard...it's complicated. We are not on lovey dovey terms right now though since the SCOTUS ruling. We are on different sides of the issue and it's a topic that has inspired some real spice in our marriage. We are both Christians and love God and Jesus and each other, but we read the Bible very differently. We try to inspire each other to greater understanding (and I have always argued that she has taught me more than I have taught her) and then we try to get out of each other's way, but some issues are so hot that it's like throwing a pack of cherry bombs down the john. She is not very pleased with me right now and I am doing my best not to gloat

Nothing wrong with a little spice in your marriage! At least it's not boring, right?

Well our marriage is anything but boring and at the same time it is terribly boring and that is a great thing. Both our first marriages were VERY exciting. I won't divulge Trinity's life, but for me it was "crabs? How the hell did I get crabs?!?" Trust me....marriages like that can be described a lot of way but boring aint one of them. Boring is good. I embrace boring.

 

[BluePhantom]

Hmm. Very interesting stuff. I've never heard some of these stories.

Well that's kind of the thing. Most people don't know these stories because historically you would get killed for speaking of them. There is a reason why apocryphal books are so rare. You would get killed for having them. This is also why when we find these rare books they are stuffed in jars and buried or hidden. They were buried so no one would know that the owner had them and then 2,000 years later someone is digging for fertilizer (as was the case with the Nag Hammadi texts) and suddenly there are these books no one has ever seen. We knew they existed because other texts referred to them but we didn't have them. For example we have writings from very ancient church fathers talking about the Gospel of Thomas. We knew it existed at some point but it had been lost to history. We didn't know what the Gospel of Thomas actually said. We didn't know for perhaps 1,800 years. Then in 1945 a guy was digging in the desert and found a jar. In it was the fucking Gospel of Thomas that had been buried by someone almost 2,000 years ago to hide it so he would not get killed for having it. Suddenly, all these references by other Christian authors start to make sense because NOW we have the Gospel of Thomas!!!!

So there are so many things that we don't know about what ancient Christians believed and when one starts to dig there is a great opportunity for learning that can enhance one's faith and love for God. But many people find it really threatening because those texts are very different. They talk about a very different Christianity than they grew up believing. It's scary to consider such things because you put your entire theological creed on the line.

This is why you see such hostility on these boards and in Christian society when you start to point to ancient sources. It's fucking terrifying to a devout Christian because what it says is "holy shit, everything I have built my life on may be wrong".

 

[ChrisL]

Hmm. Very interesting stuff. I've never heard some of these stories.

Well that's kind of the thing. Most people don't know these stories because historically you would get killed for speaking of them. There is a reason why apocryphal books are so rare. You would get killed for having them. This is also why when we find these rare books they are stuffed in jars and buried or hidden. They were buried so no one would know that the owner had them and then 2,000 years later someone is digging for fertilizer (as was the case with the Nag Hammadi texts) and suddenly there are these books no one has ever seen. We knew they existed because other texts referred to them but we didn't have them. For example we have writings from very ancient church fathers talking about the Gospel of Thomas. We knew it existed at some point but it had been lost to history. We didn't know what the Gospel of Thomas actually said. We didn't know for perhaps 1,800 years. Then in 1945 a guy was digging in the desert and found a jar. In it was the fucking Gospel of Thomas that had been buried by someone almost 2,000 years ago to hide it so he would not get killed for having it. Suddenly, all these references by other Christian authors start to make sense because NOW we have the Gospel of Thomas!!!!

So there are so many things that we don't know about what ancient Christians believed and when one starts to dig there is a great opportunity for learning that can enhance one's faith and love for God. But many people find it really threatening because those texts are very different. They talk about a very different Christianity than they grew up believing. It's scary to consider such things because you put your entire theological creed on the line.

You think that's scary, try wondering about the existence of God! You know, you're supposed to have "faith" to get into Heaven. Otherwise . . . hot potatoes.