Forsaking all/Renunciation

[ciel_perdu]

Jesus said in Luke 14:33 ''whosoever of you that does not forsake all that he owns, cannot be my disciple''.

We see from Jesus' life that he did this, and we see ample evidence of his disciples doing this, not only in the gospels, but in the book of Acts too.

Buddha also renounced everything, forsaking his worldly possessions/attachments/relationships etc in the search for meaning and truth and the end of suffering.

I believe Christians should follow this teaching of Jesus, just like his first disciples did, but there are a very rare few that do. Why? Isn't it because we love our possessions, our status, our relationships, our lives and our money!

So, how do people reconcile what Jesus did and what Buddha did, and what they taught, with their own unwillingness to actually do the same?

We say that we have let go of all our attachments in our heart.

It certainly sounds a lot more spiritual doesn't it? People inevitably say, ''yes, certainly if you're (so un-spiritual) to be attached to your possessions then you will need to forsake them...as for me, I don't need to ACTUALLY forsake anything that I own because, I am not attached''.

How convenient. They spiritualize not letting go of their attachments, at the same time as making out that those who actually DO literally forsake all they own, to be some what spiritually inferior.

Truly a measure of our attachment to money, our possessions, our relationships, to our lives, will be if we can forsake them all for God, love and truth. Jesus did it, and taught his disciples to do it.

So, why don't we do it?

 

[editec]

So, why don't we do it?

I don't because I prefer to live indoors.

 

[sparky]

looks like 'ol Buddha didn't forsake many meals.....

 

[tonystewart1]

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

John 10:10

Why is it so many Christians think that God wants you to suffer to serve him. You are the light that shown from Chirst. He gave us the light. Christians should be happy and content with the blessings God had given them. My money and my house are blessings God has given me and I praise him for them everyday. I do not hesitate to tell anyone how they are blessings from God.

Yes you can spiritually forsake your material possesions. Money is not the root of all evil. The love of money is.

 

[midcan5]

One doesn't even have to be religious to realize modern Americans have lost some sense of the value of life. But consider that we live in a consumer society in which consuming and having are the central actions of the people. They keep us going, good thoughts don't. Today your call to a more austere lifestyle is even countered by the religious in America. Religion today has nothing to do with the spiritual it is all about the material. Modern American consumerism has done something a religious person would think impossible, it has managed to turn the values of Christianity into values that would have once been considered narcissism. And you can read replies and check out Osteen and others for proof.


"Something is profoundly wrong with the way we live today. For thirty years we have made a virtue out of the pursuit of material self-interest: indeed, this very pursuit now constitutes whatever remains of our sense of collective purpose. We know what things cost but have no idea what they are worth. We no longer ask of a judicial ruling or a legislative act: is it good? Is it fair? Is it just? Is it right? Will it help bring about a better society or a better world? Those used to be the political questions, even if they invited no easy answers. We must learn once again to pose them." Tony Judt 'Ill Fares the Land'

 

[editec]

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

John 10:10

Why is it so many Christians think that God wants you to suffer to serve him. You are the light that shown from Chirst. He gave us the light. Christians should be happy and content with the blessings God had given them. My money and my house are blessings God has given me and I praise him for them everyday. I do not hesitate to tell anyone how they are blessings from God.

Yes you can spiritually forsake your material possesions. Money is not the root of all evil. The love of money is.

Of course the darker flipside of that belief system is implied thusly:

I am blessed by God and those who do not have my blessings are cursed by God.

The above is the basic premise of the Puritan Elect's conceit.

It is, at best, clueless magical thinking.

At its worst, it is the justification for all social inequity.

It is, if one is a devotee of the teachings of Jesus Christ, an affront to the christian religion.

 

[tonystewart1]

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

John 10:10

Why is it so many Christians think that God wants you to suffer to serve him. You are the light that shown from Chirst. He gave us the light. Christians should be happy and content with the blessings God had given them. My money and my house are blessings God has given me and I praise him for them everyday. I do not hesitate to tell anyone how they are blessings from God.

Yes you can spiritually forsake your material possesions. Money is not the root of all evil. The love of money is.

Of course the darker flipside of that belief system is implied thusly:

I am blessed by God and those who do not have my blessings are cursed by God.

The above is the basic premise of the Puritan Elect's conceit.

It is, at best, clueless magical thinking.

At its worst, it is the justification for all social inequity.

It is, if one is a devotee of the teachings of Jesus Christ, an affront to the christian religion.

You would not beileve the evangelical preachers I have heard abuse this verse:

Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. Matthew 7:17

Your right that it does have a dark side but at the same time being rich or wealthy does not exlude you from service to the Lord or heaven. It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to get into heaven but it is not impossible for a rich man to get to heaven just harder.

 

[Dr.Drock]

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

John 10:10

Why is it so many Christians think that God wants you to suffer to serve him. You are the light that shown from Chirst. He gave us the light. Christians should be happy and content with the blessings God had given them. My money and my house are blessings God has given me and I praise him for them everyday. I do not hesitate to tell anyone how they are blessings from God.

Yes you can spiritually forsake your material possesions. Money is not the root of all evil. The love of money is.

I read that as they might have life more abundantly, with abundance referring to the persons's life, not their possessions.

 

[ciel_perdu]

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

John 10:10

Tonystewart1 wrote:

Why is it so many Christians think that God wants you to suffer to serve him.

Perhaps we can deal with your first sentence. Who said anything about suffering?
The same Jesus that said, ''I am come so they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly'', is the same Jesus that said, ''whosoever of you that does not forsake all that he owns, cannot be my disciple''. Either Jesus is contradicting himself, OR (which is more likely the case) you falsely assume that forsaking all you own will cause you suffering, and NOT that the fruit of such an action will lead to the very abundant life that Jesus was talking about. You see, everything Jesus commanded us to do is all for our own good, and all a part of the abundant life.


Tonystewart1 wrote:

You are the light that shown from Chirst. He gave us the light.

Yes, he gave us the light, and he said he who follows me shall not walk in darkness but shall have the light of life. So, when he says that we need to do something or else we can't be his disciple, doesn't reason say that we should do it, if indeed we want to follow him, and partake of that light?


Tonystewart1 wrote:

Christians should be happy and content with the blessings God had given them.

Absolutely, Christians should be happy and content with the blessings God has given them.


Tonystewart1 wrote:

My money and my house are blessings God has given me and I praise him for them everyday.

It can be very tempting to use the 'happy and content with blessings from God'' line of reasoning, to completely side-step what Jesus says about the need for ALL of us that want to be his disciple, i.e. to forsake all that we own.

Tonystewart1 wrote:

I do not hesitate to tell anyone how they are blessings from God.

That's great, but it doesn't negate what Jesus commanded us to do.

Tonystewart1 wrote:

Yes you can spiritually forsake your material possesions.

Now, seems to be that your taking the line of reasoning that says, ''I have forsaken all my possessions in my heart''. That's not what Jesus said to do. Can you see the difference? If I can make an analogy from the book of James. James said, ''show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works''. We could say, ''show me you have forsaken all that you own, without doing it, and I will show you I have forsaken all by actually doing it''.

Tonystewart1 wrote:

Money is not the root of all evil. The love of money is.

Did I say that money is the root of all evil? No. Which makes me wonder why from out of the blue, you felt the need to qualify this? That is to say, why the defense for money?

 

[tonystewart1]

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

John 10:10

Why is it so many Christians think that God wants you to suffer to serve him. You are the light that shown from Chirst. He gave us the light. Christians should be happy and content with the blessings God had given them. My money and my house are blessings God has given me and I praise him for them everyday. I do not hesitate to tell anyone how they are blessings from God.

Yes you can spiritually forsake your material possesions. Money is not the root of all evil. The love of money is.

I read that as they might have life more abundantly, with abundance referring to the persons's life, not their possessions.

The joy and happiness in a persons life in abundance. Not having to worry about paying your bills brings you more time to enjoy your life. We do not know why some Christians have more money than others but as long as they got it and put Christ foremost in their hearts while doing it and continue to give him praise for their blessings its not a sin.

For some people renouncing all their worldly possesions and living in a cave brings them closer to God. That is their path and what they need to do. It is not a requirement for all Christians.

 

[Dr.Drock]

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

John 10:10

Why is it so many Christians think that God wants you to suffer to serve him. You are the light that shown from Chirst. He gave us the light. Christians should be happy and content with the blessings God had given them. My money and my house are blessings God has given me and I praise him for them everyday. I do not hesitate to tell anyone how they are blessings from God.

Yes you can spiritually forsake your material possesions. Money is not the root of all evil. The love of money is.

I read that as they might have life more abundantly, with abundance referring to the persons's life, not their possessions.

The joy and happiness in a persons life in abundance. Not having to worry about paying your bills brings you more time to enjoy your life. We do not know why some Christians have more money than others but as long as they got it and put Christ foremost in their hearts while doing it and continue to give him praise for their blessings its not a sin.

For some people renouncing all their worldly possesions and living in a cave brings them closer to God. That is their path and what they need to do. It is not a requirement for all Christians.

The act of worrying when it comes to paying your bills is our flaw as humans. It's not something that should cause us stress or not, it should be a procedural sort of thing. We should worry more about how happy we are and how we contribute to other's happiness. That's my opinion anyway.

 

[tonystewart1]

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

John 10:10

Tonystewart1 wrote:

Why is it so many Christians think that God wants you to suffer to serve him.

Perhaps we can deal with your first sentence. Who said anything about suffering?
The same Jesus that said, ''I am come so they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly'', is the same Jesus that said, ''whosoever of you that does not forsake all that he owns, cannot be my disciple''. Either Jesus is contradicting himself, OR (which is more likely the case) you falsely assume that forsaking all you own will cause you suffering, and NOT that the fruit of such an action will lead to the very abundant life that Jesus was talking about. You see, everything Jesus commanded us to do is all for our own good, and all a part of the abundant life.


Tonystewart1 wrote:


Yes, he gave us the light, and he said he who follows me shall not walk in darkness but shall have the light of life. So, when he says that we need to do something or else we can't be his disciple, doesn't reason say that we should do it, if indeed we want to follow him, and partake of that light?


Tonystewart1 wrote:


Absolutely, Christians should be happy and content with the blessings God has given them.


Tonystewart1 wrote:


It can be very tempting to use the 'happy and content with blessings from God'' line of reasoning, to completely side-step what Jesus says about the need for ALL of us that want to be his disciple, i.e. to forsake all that we own.

Tonystewart1 wrote:


That's great, but it doesn't negate what Jesus commanded us to do.

Tonystewart1 wrote:

Yes you can spiritually forsake your material possesions.

Now, seems to be that your taking the line of reasoning that says, ''I have forsaken all my possessions in my heart''. That's not what Jesus said to do. Can you see the difference? If I can make an analogy from the book of James. James said, ''show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works''. We could say, ''show me you have forsaken all that you own, without doing it, and I will show you I have forsaken all by actually doing it''.

Tonystewart1 wrote:

Money is not the root of all evil. The love of money is.

Did I say that money is the root of all evil? No. Which makes me wonder why from out of the blue, you felt the need to qualify this? That is to say, why the defense for money?

Are you seriously advocating that to be a Christian I must physically take all my possessions and get rid ot them. Live a hand to mouth existence. I am having trouble understanding what it is that you are claiming.

 

[Marie888]

One doesn't even have to be religious to realize modern Americans have lost some sense of the value of life. But consider that we live in a consumer society in which consuming and having are the central actions of the people. They keep us going, good thoughts don't. Today your call to a more austere lifestyle is even countered by the religious in America. Religion today has nothing to do with the spiritual it is all about the material. Modern American consumerism has done something a religious person would think impossible, it has managed to turn the values of Christianity into values that would have once been considered narcissism. And you can read replies and check out Osteen and others for proof.


"Something is profoundly wrong with the way we live today. For thirty years we have made a virtue out of the pursuit of material self-interest: indeed, this very pursuit now constitutes whatever remains of our sense of collective purpose. We know what things cost but have no idea what they are worth. We no longer ask of a judicial ruling or a legislative act: is it good? Is it fair? Is it just? Is it right? Will it help bring about a better society or a better world? Those used to be the political questions, even if they invited no easy answers. We must learn once again to pose them." Tony Judt 'Ill Fares the Land'

Yes, and Jesus Christ told us what would happen. Many will fall from the faith, many will have "itching ears" wanting to hear only what they "want" to hear, instead of His Word. Because of the increase of sin, the love of many will grow cold. There will be many deceivers. It all begins and ends with the Lord. We sin firstly against Him, we ask for forgiveness firstly from Him. (hence, love the Lord our God, and love others)

As for Joel Osteen, I encourage you to test what Osteen all has said and taught (and all men or women say) against the Bible. God/God's Word first like the Bereans in the Bible. Even test what I'm saying. Look for yourself. We all fall short, or mess up, but Jesus Christ wasn't a universalist. He said HE is the only way, the truth, and the life. He alone.

The whole of Matthew 24 is remarkable:
Matthew 24 - Passage Lookup - King James Version - BibleGateway.com

Matthew 24
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

2 Timothy 4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

.

 

[tonystewart1]

I stated that money is not evil but the love of it is to prove a point. The things that we have are not evil just what we do with them and how we obtained them can be evil.

I wonder have you given up all that you own? Or is this just some kind of baited thread to try to prove that all Christians are just hypocrites?

 

[ciel_perdu]

Tonystewart1 wrote:

Are you seriously advocating that to be a Christian I must physically take all my possessions and get rid ot them. Live a hand to mouth existence. I am having trouble understanding what it is that you are claiming.

I'm just saying what Jesus said, ''whomsoever of you that does not forsake all that he owns cannot be my disciple''. Luke 14:33. Are you seriously advocating that we don't have to follow the teachings of Jesus in order to be a follower of Jesus?
With regards to hand to mouth existence, Jesus did teach us to pray for our daily bread, did he not? Jesus did teach us to live by faith, seek first the Kingdom of God and all these things will be given to us, as they are given to the birds and the flowers.

I haven't been claiming anything, just communicating what Jesus taught.

Tonystewart1 wrote:

I stated that money is not evil but the love of it is to prove a point. The things that we have are not evil just what we do with them and how we obtained them can be evil.

Who was talking about anything being evil in the first place? All that was said, is Jesus says, ''whomsoever of you that does not forsake all that he owns cannot be my disciple''. Jesus didn't qualify anything about how one gets his possessions, nor what one does with them, he simply states what I have written above. Jesus says in essence, ''If you love me, forsake all you own''. If we don't do that, then what is it that we love?

Tonystewart1 wrote:

I wonder have you given up all that you own? Or is this just some kind of baited thread to try to prove that all Christians are just hypocrites?

If I said yes, would it make you obey what Jesus said? And if it wouldn't, then why do you ask?

Ultimately truth is truth, whether anyone follows it or not. So, whether I have or haven't doesn't detract from what Jesus commanded those who wanted to be his disciples to do, i.e. forsake all that they own.

Why do you feel the need to accuse me of wanting to prove all Christians to be hypocrites? I have just be communicating what Jesus taught.

 

[LumpyPostage]

Since I'm not Christian or Buddhist does that mean I can buy a new car?

 

[tonystewart1]

Tonystewart1 wrote:

Are you seriously advocating that to be a Christian I must physically take all my possessions and get rid ot them. Live a hand to mouth existence. I am having trouble understanding what it is that you are claiming.

I'm just saying what Jesus said, ''whomsoever of you that does not forsake all that he owns cannot be my disciple''. Luke 14:33. Are you seriously advocating that we don't have to follow the teachings of Jesus in order to be a follower of Jesus?
With regards to hand to mouth existence, Jesus did teach us to pray for our daily bread, did he not? Jesus did teach us to live by faith, seek first the Kingdom of God and all these things will be given to us, as they are given to the birds and the flowers.

I haven't been claiming anything, just communicating what Jesus taught.

Tonystewart1 wrote:

I stated that money is not evil but the love of it is to prove a point. The things that we have are not evil just what we do with them and how we obtained them can be evil.

Who was talking about anything being evil in the first place? All that was said, is Jesus says, ''whomsoever of you that does not forsake all that he owns cannot be my disciple''. Jesus didn't qualify anything about how one gets his possessions, nor what one does with them, he simply states what I have written above. Jesus says in essence, ''If you love me, forsake all you own''. If we don't do that, then what is it that we love?

Tonystewart1 wrote:

I wonder have you given up all that you own? Or is this just some kind of baited thread to try to prove that all Christians are just hypocrites?

If I said yes, would it make you obey what Jesus said? And if it wouldn't, then why do you ask?

Ultimately truth is truth, whether anyone follows it or not. So, whether I have or haven't doesn't detract from what Jesus commanded those who wanted to be his disciples to do, i.e. forsake all that they own.

Why do you feel the need to accuse me of wanting to prove all Christians to be hypocrites? I have just be communicating what Jesus taught.

You have been communicating what the bible says but you are just looking at one passage and not considering the bible as a whole. Works do not save us. We are saved by faith. Ephesians 2:9-10.

Works are the by product of our faith. They are a manifestation of our faith. And no where in James does he define works as forsaking all we have.

Here is part of an article that I found usefull on this subject the link to the rest will be at the bottom.


Then Jesus arrives at the words in view in this article. He says, "So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple". (Luke 14:33) Now, what is the context for that statement? Is it material things? No, it is not. It is relationships with natural relatives who are unwilling to follow him too. In his illustrations to emphasize the principle of counting the cost BEFORE starting out, he talks about material resources like materials for a tower and men and resources for a battle. But those illustrations are simply teaching the principle of "counting the cost BEFORE starting out" on what you want to do. In other words, before you follow Jesus, know that it will cost you the things the world (and yourself!) counts most important. The "forsaking all" principle in this passage, is explicitly given in verses 26 and 27 as the most important natural relationships. Jesus is telling those who follow him that if we don't forsake their natural relatives, we will fail in following him. We will fail by trying to please those people with whom we have had important natural relationships, before trying to please God.


I think it is very worthy to note that Jesus says, "sell your possessions" instead of "give your possessions away". It is also worthy of note that he did not say, "sell all your possessions". Jesus' Words were perfect, and we would do well to listen carefully to the Master when he speaks. Why would he say "sell your possessions" and not 'donate them all to charity'? This author believes because he meant what he said. Jesus does not teach that those who are to faithfully follow him must give away all their material possessions. He does tell us to sell our possessions. And then what of the proceeds that we receive from selling our possessions? We should use those proceeds to serve the Lord and to bless others, especially the poor and other disciples. We should not store up treasures on earth where moth and rust destroy.

What Does It Mean to Forsake All?

You will have to forgive me for wondering about you motives. This board is full of Pharisees that love nothing better than try to trick Christians with the words of the bible.

 

[tonystewart1]

Since I'm not Christian or Buddhist does that mean I can buy a new car?

Please do. The economy could use the help.

 

[ciel_perdu]

Then Jesus arrives at the words in view in this article. He says, "So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple". (Luke 14:33) Now, what is the context for that statement? Is it material things? No, it is not. It is relationships with natural relatives who are unwilling to follow him too. In his illustrations to emphasize the principle of counting the cost BEFORE starting out, he talks about material resources like materials for a tower and men and resources for a battle. But those illustrations are simply teaching the principle of "counting the cost BEFORE starting out" on what you want to do. In other words, before you follow Jesus, know that it will cost you the things the world (and yourself!) counts most important. The "forsaking all" principle in this passage, is explicitly given in verses 26 and 27 as the most important natural relationships. Jesus is telling those who follow him that if we don't forsake their natural relatives, we will fail in following him. We will fail by trying to please those people with whom we have had important natural relationships, before trying to please God.


I think it is very worthy to note that Jesus says, "sell your possessions" instead of "give your possessions away". It is also worthy of note that he did not say, "sell all your possessions". Jesus' Words were perfect, and we would do well to listen carefully to the Master when he speaks. Why would he say "sell your possessions" and not 'donate them all to charity'? This author believes because he meant what he said. Jesus does not teach that those who are to faithfully follow him must give away all their material possessions. He does tell us to sell our possessions. And then what of the proceeds that we receive from selling our possessions? We should use those proceeds to serve the Lord and to bless others, especially the poor and other disciples. We should not store up treasures on earth where moth and rust destroy.

Sounds nice. But the end result is still that we don't actually have to DO what Jesus said. Jesus said ''sell what you own and give the money to the poor''. The author above says ''It is also worthy of note that he did not say, ''sell all your possessions''. If Jesus says sell what you own, you COULD argue that he is just saying sell whatever it is that you want to sell, and keep the rest, or it could very easily mean 'sell what you own' i.e. whatever you own sell. That makes sense in the context of forsaking ALL that you own. That verse is NOT just about relationships with people, though they play a part, he clearly states, ''forsake all that they own''. It also makes sense in the context of Peter saying, ''lo we have forsaken all to follow you, what shall we recieve?''....''I tell you whoever has forsaken family, friends, lands, possessions for me...''.

I do agree with the above author that Jesus did not teach us to give away all of our possessions, he did say ''sell what you have and give the money to the poor''. He did say, ''whomsoever of you that does not forsake all that he owns cannot be my disciple''. I don't see them as being opposities. Sell what you own, give the money to the poor, is forsaking all your own. Then come and follow Jesus.

Again, what I see is Jesus and the disciples DOING and TEACHING something, that Christians do NOT do today. The quote above is an example of words that sound nice, sound like they're advocating following Jesus, but in the end the bottom line is, ''you don't need to forsake all you own to be a disciple of Jesus''. That is NOT what Jesus said.

 

[ciel_perdu]

Tonystewart1 wrote:

You have been communicating what the bible says but you are just looking at one passage and not considering the bible as a whole. Works do not save us. We are saved by faith. Ephesians 2:9-10.

Works are the by product of our faith. They are a manifestation of our faith. And no where in James does he define works as forsaking all we have.

Jesus taught that anyone that wants to be his disciple must forsake all they own. He taught that we should sell our possessions and give the money to the poor. He taught that it's nearly impossible for a rich person to get into heaven. He taught that we can't serve two masters, God or Mammon. We see his disciples forsaking all, we see him teach his disciples to teach everyone to obey the things he commanded them, and we see people do this in the book of Acts. Considering that context, I don't think I am focusing on one passage at all.

Sure works do not save, us we are saved by faith through grace. Though you could have added the verse following the ones you quoted from Ephesians, where it says that we are created in Christ Jesus to DO good works.

If we are saved by faith through grace, one needs to ask themselves what their faith should be in. When we obey Jesus we are showing faith in Jesus. That is the faith that will save us. Not faith in whether Jesus was God, or that he was born of a virgin, but faith in what he SAID. So, like James says, ''I will show you my faith by obeying Jesus, you show me your faith WITHOUT obeying Jesus''. It's not the works that save us, but without the works, what faith do we have?

No, nowhere in James does he define works as forsaking all you own. Jesus however teaches us to do it, or we can't be his disciple. So, I was using James' illustration on faith and works, and showing how it can be applied to anything Jesus commanded, in particular this verse from Luke. The reason I did so, was because often times Christians have a thousand and one excuses for why they don't need to do what Jesus clearly says, and waffle on about how Jesus mean't it spiritually, forsaking all in your heart etc etc. Therefore, ''Show me you have forsaken all by NOT forsaking all, and I will show you I have forsaken all by forsaking all''. Or put differently like I wrote above, ''Show me you have faith in Jesus without doing what he taught, and I will show you my faith in Jesus by doing what he taught''.