FLDS - Abortion Hypocrites

[Shattered]

Gunny,


These people who defend abortion never even had one. Believe me if they had they would have understood the heartbeat and brainwave activity that they killed was an actual human being.

Not necessarily true.. I'd be willing to bet a good portion of them had them to get out of a "difficult" situation, and to avoid taking responsility for their actions, because they were "too young", "too busy", or simply didn't "want to" be a parent. I actually know one that had one because she didn't want to "have to get fat and buy a whole new wardrobe".

 

[mattskramer]

I don't care what you call it, human being or not, until it takes a breath and is physically divided from the woman's body, it's up to her to do what she wants to do with it.

Doesn’t the father have a voice? Half of the genetic material came from him.

 

[Care4all]

This is much more complicated discussion than most any of us are willing to delve, in my personal opinion.

Let me start with saying that many people have their beliefs that abortion is wrong due to their religious beliefs or even religious upbringings, where "thou shall not kill" is taken to heart....and even some non religious people believe that killing the unborn is wrong just because it is a human being... that is being snuffed out before they have the chance to be born.

Let's face it, please let's face this head on and say the truth of what is: It is the termination of pregnancy, and pregnancy is the nuturing period for an offspring child to be, before it is born.

The Bible describes life in the beginning in Genesis 2, I believe, that Adam's life began with his first BREATH....God Breathed life in to him.....he was FORMED already by God, but breathing through his nostril gave him LIFE.

Think about this for a minute or two, for those Judeo/Christians among us...

I was floored when I read this passage, when searching for what the Bible has to say about abortion, even though it is not mentioned once directly in the Bible...floored because abortion is not listed soo I thought it would be good to try to find out when human life begins...thinking maybe this would give me some answers regarding abortion in the Bible.

It made me think that there was a distinction between the born and unborn...born meaning they took their first breath. And yes this is even our definition in today's times...if the baby is born and has taken his first breath and then dies, the baby is issued a birth certificate and then a death certificate.

If a baby is born in our society that never takes its first breath, it is still born....and is not issued a birth or death certificate I don't believe?

Then there is another passage in Exodus, where it speaks of a woman that was with child, that got pushed by a man in a fight with another man, which forced her "fruit" to depart, (a miscarriage)....but did not cause any harm to her....her husband could bring the man that caused this harm to judges and demand what restitution he deemed fair, (for the loss of his unborn child).

Now this to me means that the unborn child DEFINATELY is NOT just a clump of cells that is a parasite in the mother....he got restitution for his unborn child who was born dead....that departed from his wife due to this man knocking in to her.

But THEN the passage goes in to, the BUTS....

but, if later... this woman becomes sick or dies from the incident then the proper judgement is, An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth....a life, for a life.

So if this woman went on to die because of this incident, then this man that caused this would be put to death, capital punishment....a life for a life.

So what does all this mean?

It means that the unborn child has value, but the born has more value....is "worth" more.....Doesn't it?

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

"And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth . . ."--Ex. 21:22-25

-------------------------------------------

Okay, taking all of this stuff in to consideration....

TO ME, there is a possibility that the unborn child does not have the same value as the born child, but does indeed have value.

This still makes abortion wrong in my own personal opinion....it is taking away a chance for this human being to be BORN....a termination of the pregnancy TOP, ......terminated.....

you can't terminate and kill something that isn't already alive....this is a fact.

---------------------------------------------

What I can't do, is insist that EVERYONE should think the same way as me...

people do their own soul searching on what is right or wrong, they also have freewill that gives them the chance to choose.

What I do know is that forgiveness is what is suppose to be offered to these women that have gone through an abortion, and love and kindness and compassion....through this, they will be won over, and they can heal.

care

 

[mattskramer]

Since when did liberals have morals? Oh that's right ... you have your own set you wish to impose on everyone. How could I EVER forget THAT?

Of course liberals have morals. They are simply different than conservatives. Take capital punishment. Conservatives think that it is moral to execute those convicted of murder. One of their reasons may be that perhaps it will discourage others from committing murder.

On the other hand, liberals are more opposed to capital punishment. One of their reasons may be that there is too much of a risk of executing someone who actually did not commit the crime for which he was convicted.

Anyway, legislation is the imposition of morals. It is legislatures (conservative or liberal) telling us what they think is right or wrong for us.

 

[Gunny]

This is much more complicated discussion than most any of us are willing to delve, in my personal opinion.

Let me start with saying that many people have their beliefs that abortion is wrong due to their religious beliefs or even religious upbringings, where "thou shall not kill" is taken to heart....and even some non religious people believe that killing the unborn is wrong just because it is a human being... that is being snuffed out before they have the chance to be born.

Let's face it, please let's face this head on and say the truth of what is: It is the termination of pregnancy, and pregnancy is the nuturing period for an offspring child to be, before it is born.

The Bible describes life in the beginning in Genesis 2, I believe, that Adam's life began with his first BREATH....God Breathed life in to him.....he was FORMED already by God, but breathing through his nostril gave him LIFE.

Think about this for a minute or two, for those Judeo/Christians among us...

I was floored when I read this passage, when searching for what the Bible has to say about abortion, even though it is not mentioned once directly in the Bible...floored because abortion is not listed soo I thought it would be good to try to find out when human life begins...thinking maybe this would give me some answers regarding abortion in the Bible.

It made me think that there was a distinction between the born and unborn...born meaning they took their first breath. And yes this is even our definition in today's times...if the baby is born and has taken his first breath and then dies, the baby is issued a birth certificate and then a death certificate.

If a baby is born in our society that never takes its first breath, it is still born....and is not issued a birth or death certificate I don't believe?

Then there is another passage in Exodus, where it speaks of a woman that was with child, that got pushed by a man in a fight with another man, which forced her "fruit" to depart, (a miscarriage)....but did not cause any harm to her....her husband could bring the man that caused this harm to judges and demand what restitution he deemed fair, (for the loss of his unborn child).

Now this to me means that the unborn child DEFINATELY is NOT just a clump of cells that is a parasite in the mother....he got restitution for his unborn child who was born dead....that departed from his wife due to this man knocking in to her.

But THEN the passage goes in to, the BUTS....

but, if later... this woman becomes sick or dies from the incident then the proper judgement is, An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth....a life, for a life.

So if this woman went on to die because of this incident, then this man that caused this would be put to death, capital punishment....a life for a life.

So what does all this mean?

It means that the unborn child has value, but the born has more value....is "worth" more.....Doesn't it?



-------------------------------------------

Okay, taking all of this stuff in to consideration....

TO ME, there is a possibility that the unborn child does not have the same value as the born child, but does indeed have value.

This still makes abortion wrong in my own personal opinion....it is taking away a chance for this human being to be BORN....a termination of the pregnancy TOP, ......terminated.....

you can't terminate and kill something that isn't already alive....this is a fact.

---------------------------------------------

What I can't do, is insist that EVERYONE should think the same way as me...

people do their own soul searching on what is right or wrong, they also have freewill that gives them the chance to choose.

What I do know is that forgiveness is what is suppose to be offered to these women that have gone through an abortion, and love and kindness and compassion....through this, they will be won over, and they can heal.

care

Boy are YOU ever asking for the pundits to beat you mercilessly about the head and shoulders.

 

[Gunny]

Of course liberals have morals. They are simply different than conservatives. Take capital punishment. Conservatives think that it is moral to execute those convicted of murder. One of their reasons may be that perhaps it will discourage others from committing murder.

On the other hand, liberals are more opposed to capital punishment. One of their reasons may be that there is too much of a risk of executing someone who actually did not commit the crime for which he was convicted.

Anyway, legislation is the imposition of morals. It is legislatures (conservative or liberal) telling us what they think is right or wrong for us.

The point to the dripping with sarcasm statement is that one of the left's favorite excuses is the wah wah about the right trying to impose its morals on them; when, in fact, they are doing the EXACT same thing.

The usual double standard. Nothing new to see here.

 

[mattskramer]

The point to the dripping with sarcasm statement is that one of the left's favorite excuses is the wah wah about the right trying to impose its morals on them; when, in fact, they are doing the EXACT same thing.

The usual double standard. Nothing new to see here.

Ah. Okay. We are in agreement.

 

[Ravi]

This is much more complicated discussion than most any of us are willing to delve, in my personal opinion.

Let me start with saying that many people have their beliefs that abortion is wrong due to their religious beliefs or even religious upbringings, where "thou shall not kill" is taken to heart....and even some non religious people believe that killing the unborn is wrong just because it is a human being... that is being snuffed out before they have the chance to be born.

Let's face it, please let's face this head on and say the truth of what is: It is the termination of pregnancy, and pregnancy is the nuturing period for an offspring child to be, before it is born.

The Bible describes life in the beginning in Genesis 2, I believe, that Adam's life began with his first BREATH....God Breathed life in to him.....he was FORMED already by God, but breathing through his nostril gave him LIFE.

Think about this for a minute or two, for those Judeo/Christians among us...

I was floored when I read this passage, when searching for what the Bible has to say about abortion, even though it is not mentioned once directly in the Bible...floored because abortion is not listed soo I thought it would be good to try to find out when human life begins...thinking maybe this would give me some answers regarding abortion in the Bible.

It made me think that there was a distinction between the born and unborn...born meaning they took their first breath. And yes this is even our definition in today's times...if the baby is born and has taken his first breath and then dies, the baby is issued a birth certificate and then a death certificate.

If a baby is born in our society that never takes its first breath, it is still born....and is not issued a birth or death certificate I don't believe?

Then there is another passage in Exodus, where it speaks of a woman that was with child, that got pushed by a man in a fight with another man, which forced her "fruit" to depart, (a miscarriage)....but did not cause any harm to her....her husband could bring the man that caused this harm to judges and demand what restitution he deemed fair, (for the loss of his unborn child).

Now this to me means that the unborn child DEFINATELY is NOT just a clump of cells that is a parasite in the mother....he got restitution for his unborn child who was born dead....that departed from his wife due to this man knocking in to her.

But THEN the passage goes in to, the BUTS....

but, if later... this woman becomes sick or dies from the incident then the proper judgement is, An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth....a life, for a life.

So if this woman went on to die because of this incident, then this man that caused this would be put to death, capital punishment....a life for a life.

So what does all this mean?

It means that the unborn child has value, but the born has more value....is "worth" more.....Doesn't it?



-------------------------------------------

Okay, taking all of this stuff in to consideration....

TO ME, there is a possibility that the unborn child does not have the same value as the born child, but does indeed have value.

This still makes abortion wrong in my own personal opinion....it is taking away a chance for this human being to be BORN....a termination of the pregnancy TOP, ......terminated.....

you can't terminate and kill something that isn't already alive....this is a fact.

---------------------------------------------

What I can't do, is insist that EVERYONE should think the same way as me...

people do their own soul searching on what is right or wrong, they also have freewill that gives them the chance to choose.

What I do know is that forgiveness is what is suppose to be offered to these women that have gone through an abortion, and love and kindness and compassion....through this, they will be won over, and they can heal.

care

That's very interesting, Care. I'd like to point out that I heard a show not long ago about a group that was trying to push legislation to issue birth and death certificates to stillborn babies. Some of these women even dress and take pictures of the "child" and do all the other things one does with a newborn, take footprints, weight, etc. The entire thing gave me the creeps.

 

[Ravi]

Gunny, do you think the state should be able to force women to give birth?

 

[Care4all]

That's very interesting, Care. I'd like to point out that I heard a show not long ago about a group that was trying to push legislation to issue birth and death certificates to stillborn babies. Some of these women even dress and take pictures of the "child" and do all the other things one does with a newborn, take footprints, weight, etc. The entire thing gave me the creeps.

yep! i think it was senator santorum?

care

 

[Gunny]

Gunny, do you think the state should be able to force women to give birth?

You are missing the point to the thread. The point is the obvious double-standard being used by those who believe the state should step in if they think a child is being abused in one instance and not the other.

As far as your question goes, you are mixing legal with moral arguments. My personal belief is that abortion outside of medical necessity is murder. My belief as far as the legality of abortion goes is that the state should not force the woman to give birth unless the pregnancy has reached the point in time where abortion is not legal.

I have no problem justify the disparity in my stances for several reasons. One, the reality of the situation. Women were having abortions anyway. I don't think that my personal beliefs and/or standard I hold myself to should consign others to witchdoctors and backroom, coathanger abortions.

Two, in the end, I will answer for MY sins, not yours. So long as your sins aren't affecting my life you are free to name your own poison as far as I'm concerned.

However, abortion DOES affect my life. Not in a big way, but when one of the verbatim soundbytes on this board is fearmongering that McCain or anyone else who is pro-life is going to have Roe v Wade overturned, I just get annoyed at listening to the same baseless bullshit.

 

[speedy35]

How come so many who are opposed to abortion are FOR the death penalty? That seems a bit inconsistent to me.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

How come so many who are opposed to abortion are FOR the death penalty? That seems a bit inconsistent to me.

Not to me, abortion is murder of unborn innocents, the Death Penalty is meted out to people that have so violated others rights and the trust of the society they do not deserve to live in it anymore.

Notice the difference?

 

[Shattered]

How come so many who are opposed to abortion are FOR the death penalty? That seems a bit inconsistent to me.

How come so many who are FOR abortion are opposed to the death penalty? That seems a bit inconsistent to me.

 

[Larkinn]

And please don't anyone come on here with that bullshit it isn't a human being yet lying to yourself bullshit. If left alone, it won't come out any-damned-thing else BUT a human baby.

And if left alone a child won't become anything BUT an adult. Doesn't mean children are adults.

Nice try at summarily dismissing a rather important belief in the abortion debate.

It is unclear what exactly a human is. To simplify it as you have is incorrectly removing a large and important part of the abortion discussion.

By the way....supposedly around %25 of pregnancies are miscarried at before the 6th week. Its not a big deal because generally the women didn't even know they were pregnant. Thats a huge loss of "life", much worse than abortion. Why aren't the Conservatives on that cause?

 

[Anguille]

I didn't miss. If you agree with the state removing the children from the LDS compound and don't believe abortion is right, you are being consistent because in both cases you put the welfare of the child first.

Why do you think being anti abortion necessarily puts the welfare of children first?

What about fetuses that if not aborted, will develop into children with severe genetic abnormalities such as lacking a brain or a brain stem?

What about the welfare of pregnant children that have been raped?

 

[jillian]

How come so many who are FOR abortion are opposed to the death penalty? That seems a bit inconsistent to me.

Does it? I think you might want to re-evaluate. What's inconsistent is being anti choice, pro war and pro death penalty, and pro guns. Now THAT'S

 

[Anguille]

Gunny,


These people who defend abortion never even had one. Believe me if they had they would have understood the heartbeat and brainwave activity that they killed was an actual human being.

That's got to be the most naive statement I've yet to read in this forum.

 

[Anguille]

Doesn’t the father have a voice? Half of the genetic material came from him.

Half the genetic material came from the father. Past tense in the key. It's no longer part of the father's body once it leaves his body and becomes attached to part of a woman's body. When men figure out how to get pregnant, they can make their own decisions for themselves.
Some men may cry unfair, but then life isn't always fair. Nature made them men not women and that's that.

 

[Shattered]

Does it? I think you might want to re-evaluate. What's inconsistent is being anti choice, pro war and pro death penalty, and pro guns. Now THAT'S

Not ncessarily. Being anti-choice forces one to take a god long look at themselves, and take responsibility for their actions PRIOR to making stupid "feel good" decisions.