Zone1 Fascination with the Devil and Hell

[Meriweather]

How does history view the Salem Witch Trials?

That's the point. How does history view slavery? How will history view abortion and genital mutilation of teen genitals?

What is vital to remember that there were people fiercely against the Salem Witch Trials. My ancestor was one of them. I also had ancestors against slavery, and in my turn I am against abortion and the genital mutilation of teens. Seems like when society hears from some of its members, "This is wrong!" greater--and very serious--reflection is needed.

 

[Meriweather]

Is that judging? Or was he teaching?

Of course it is judging. Jesus saw something he used as a teaching moment.

Remember, Jesus said to judge others in the same way you want to be judged. He also said if you see someone doing something wrong (again a judgement) talk to that person.

I believe one of the beauties in scripture is how it presents both ends of the spectrum: Do not judge...if you see someone doing something wrong, talk to that person. It is up to each individual, in each situation, to find that balance and act appropriately. Leviticus states that staying silent when one should speak out is a sin.

To me, an example of the wrong judgement Jesus was speaking of is like saying, "Look at how that person dresses...what a clown." Or, 'That person can never seem to get anything right the first time. What an idiot."

 

[Ace Nova]

I disagree.

Thou shalt not make

or as explained in Deuteronomy



Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:


The very making of these graven images is forbidden whether you worship them or not because the mere making of them will corrupt you and in that corruption you might worship them.

Exodus 20:

KJV: 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image...
NIV: “You shall not make for yourself an image...."
NKJV: 4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image..."

NASB: 4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol...""


Even the version you are referencing clearly states that "Lest ye corrupt yourselves" which is in direct reference to the previous commandment of "You shall have no other gods before me" Because if you have other gods (psychological or physical idols) you will become corrupted and as a result of you being corrupted, you will have created these false idols for yourself. (Can be both physical and psychological)

It's really not that complicated. And no, you don't need to have faith, spirituality or to believe in God to understand it.

 

[Blues Man]

Exodus 20:

KJV: 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image...
NIV: “You shall not make for yourself an image...."
NKJV: 4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image..."

NASB: 4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol...""


Even the version you are referencing clearly states that "Lest ye corrupt yourselves" which is in direct reference to the previous commandment of "You shall have no other gods before me" Because if you have other gods (psychological or physical idols) you will become corrupted and as a result of you being corrupted, you will have created these false idols for yourself. (Can be both physical and psychological)

It's really not that complicated. And no, you don't need to have faith, spirituality or to believe in God to understand it.

So there are 2 separate prohibitions

No images or idols

Not every image is an idol but all images are prohibited. As explained in Deuteronomy all images are prohibited because you may be corrupted by them.



It seems you don't understand it. Surely your all knowing gods knows the difference between idols and images but you seem to think your god didn't know the difference.

Tell me what do you lose by not having images in a church that you will defy a commandment to make no images?

 

[Meriweather]

IF you worship it.

Correct. The beauty of Hebrew--and perhaps what we consider a limitation in the language--is that it has very few words--around six thousand if I recall correctly. Today, in English, we call those types of graven images, totems, an image one thinks has the power of the image it represents. One carries around an image of a lion because one believes the lion['s fierceness will be imparted to them. The closest we come to graven images today is carrying around a rabbit's foot because one totally believe it brings luck. Same with a lucky penny.

Therefore, there is a great difference between "graven image" (an idol) and a statue (a work of art to be appreciated as such). If one cannot pass by a statue of a dolphin without worshiping it so one can swim like a dolphin, then that person should avoid statues at all costs because he made it into a 'graven image'.

Kind of follows that precept similar to: All graven images are statues, but not all statues are graven images. Most are simply art.

 

[Ace Nova]

Of course it is judging. Jesus saw something he used as a teaching moment.

Remember, Jesus said to judge others in the same way you want to be judged. He also said if you see someone doing something wrong (again a judgement) talk to that person.

I believe one of the beauties in scripture is how it presents both ends of the spectrum: Do not judge...if you see someone doing something wrong, talk to that person. It is up to each individual, in each situation, to find that balance and act appropriately. Leviticus states that staying silent when one should speak out is a sin.

To me, an example of the wrong judgement Jesus was speaking of is like saying, "Look at how that person dresses...what a clown." Or, 'That person can never seem to get anything right the first time. What an idiot."

No, Jesus did not say to judge others in the same way you want to be judged. That is a complete misunderstanding of Matthew 7.

This is how Matthew 7 reads:

7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."

The entire verse is a warning NOT to judge others BECAUSE you will be judged by the same accord IF you do. Verse 3 essentially means that the vast majority of people should not judge others because in God's eyes, most people have a myriad of faults themselves (plank in your eye) - so when they judge someone for a specific issue (speck of sawdust) they look hypocritical in God's eyes because God knows the myriad of faults within most people (Even if they themselves do not realize it)

Jesus was teaching us to work on ourselves first, realize our own faults AND after we work/focus on ourselves, after we humble ourselves and realize that we are not perfect, then we can begin to help others (not judge others) overcome some of their faults. (Then you will see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye).

The entire verse is intended to teach that we should not approach/live with each other in a "judgmental way".

 

[Ace Nova]

So there are 2 separate prohibitions

No images or idols

Not every image is an idol but all images are prohibited. As explained in Deuteronomy all images are prohibited because you may be corrupted by them.



It seems you don't understand it. Surely your all knowing gods knows the difference between idols and images but you seem to think your god didn't know the difference.

Tell me what do you lose by not having images in a church that you will defy a commandment to make no images?

An image first manifests itself in the mind (psychological). If we let that image/thought take over, then eventually it will manifest itself physically by our actions. If our actions show that this image/thought is the primary focus of our lives, to the point that it causes us to break away from God's ways, it can become an "idol".

 

[Blues Man]

An image first manifests itself in the mind (psychological). If we let that image/thought take over, then eventually it will manifest itself physically by our actions. If our actions show that this image/thought is the primary focus of our lives, to the point that it causes us to break away from God's ways, it can become an "idol".

An image is a representation of a thing.

Make no image

Make no representations of things in heaven on earth or in the waters

The reason doesn't matter it is the prohibition that matters and if it is your god stating that prohibition who are you to try to spin it ?

 

[Ace Nova]

An image is a representation of a thing.

Make no image

Make no representations of things in heaven on earth or in the waters

The reason doesn't matter it is the prohibition that matters and if it is your god stating that prohibition who are you to try to spin it ?

It's really simple. You have a choice. You either follow (or attempt) to follow God's ways or you don't. God is stating that if you wish to follow his ways (have no other gods above me) then you should not create images/manifestations that can eventually become idols, which could corrupt you and take you away from God's ways.

 

[Blues Man]

It's really simple. You have a choice. You either follow (or attempt) to follow God's ways or you don't. God is stating that if you wish to follow his ways (have no other gods above me) then you should not create images/manifestations that can eventually become idols, which could corrupt you and take you away from God's ways.

But it's OK for you to make them right?

You are defending the making of not just images but images of religious figures to be used in religious ceremonies or for prayer.

It is not stated do not make images that might become idols it very clearly states do not make any images

If you can rationalize breaking any commandment than why call them commandments instead of suggestions?

 

[Ace Nova]

But it's OK for you to make them right?

You are defending the making of not just images but images of religious figures to be used in religious ceremonies or for prayer.

It is not stated do not make images that might become idols it very clearly states do not make any images

If you can rationalize breaking any commandment than why call them commandments instead of suggestions?

Matthew 22:

34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

What does this mean? If you love God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind, then you will (by default) never have issues with images/sculptures, etc that can become idols.

You could go to any church, temple or mosque anywhere on the planet and see images, sculptures, ornaments, etc all over the place within these places of worship BUT it would not affect your faith whatsoever.

 

[Meriweather]

Jesus was teaching us to work on ourselves first, realize our own faults AND after we work/focus on ourselves, after we humble ourselves and realize that we are not perfect, then we can begin to help others (not judge others) overcome some of their faults. (Then you will see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye).

The entire verse is intended to teach that we should not approach/live with each other in a "judgmental way".

I hear you. Etymology clarification: In Hebrew and Aramaic, "judge" had the connotation of ruling over. Do not judge in English would have more impact as Do not stand in judgement. That brings both the context of ruler and judging as it was used in Jesus' day. Biblical languages had so few words, that most had to do double-duty. 'Assessment' is a good example--closest word in a Biblical language might well be 'judge.'

The second point is responsibility when one sees someone else doing wrong. Is correcting them their business, their responsibility to stand in judgement? In Jesus' day, it was a common practice to ask fellow citizens to stand as judges over more trivial matters. An interesting question that can't be answered at this date is whether Jesus was cautioning people not to take on this role when two people were having a dispute. If they did, and judged for others, they should expect that the same way they judged to be meted out to them when they were in a position friends were causing for judges about something they did.

It is definitely an interesting passage, but I don't believe it should be given a greater consideration than other passages.

 

[Meriweather]

You could go to any church, temple or mosque anywhere on the planet and see images, sculptures, ornaments, etc all over the place within these places of worship BUT it would not affect your faith whatsoever.

• There are also Bible passages where God commands an image be made. Ark of the Covenant: Cherubs
• Exodus: Snake
• First Temple: Carving images was also commanded

 

[Blues Man]

Matthew 22:

34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

What does this mean? If you love God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind, then you will (by default) never have issues with images/sculptures, etc that can become idols.

You could go to any church, temple or mosque anywhere on the planet and see images, sculptures, ornaments, etc all over the place within these places of worship BUT it would not affect your faith whatsoever.

How does any of that address your violation of the 2nd commandment?

It is either a commandment or it is not. You seem to view it as a suggestion.

And the passage I quoted from Deuteronomy directly opposes these.

And if Jesus is the god of the bible then he contradicted himself by saying only 2 commandments count. And the love thy neighbor bit is not even in the 10 Commandments

 

[kjw47]

Except, there is so much good, arguably more. Why can't the good be more effective against ignorance and evil?

All have a form of love and good in them. Hitler loved his family and friends. the people of Noah's day loved their family and friends. Few have the love Jesus spoke of--The same love for family and friends is to be given ti ones enemy as well. Never to return evil for evil.
Most have premeditated return evil for evil in their hearts, that is why the world fails God. And are mislead by satan as those in Noah's day.

 

[Ringo]

Volodymyr Zelensky has asked Marina Abramovic, the Serbian-Jewish artist and sick pervert who recently starred with Jacob Rothschild against the backdrop of "Satan Calling His Legions"... to become "Ukraine's ambassador" and lead the reconstruction of schools.

The British press calls her "a sad tangle of self-mutilation and suffocation." In social networks Abramović is accused of outright Satanism, love of "blood, pain and cannibalism in her art".

Here's what they write about her "art" in publiki: "To get to the exhibition, you need to enter a narrow passage, where facing each other are naked men and women. You have to squeeze through them, rubbing against their privates. Next you can see a naked woman in a crucifixion pose. Three women who don't eat for 24 hours, and so on for 12 days. Another naked woman lying on the floor with a real skeleton on top of her. And so on and so forth. That is, in the spirit of tolerance to the pain of one's own and others' pain and eroticism with the exit into death. All this is not new performance art, but only the lightest of what Abramović has been showing to the world for half a century"

In 2016, WikiLeaks leaks were published, including a letter from Abramovich to John Podesta, head of Hillary Clinton's campaign staff. She called Podesta and her brother to keep her company at... an occult "spirit dinner" (spirit cooking). The artist herself angrily explained that spirit cooking is just a name and no occult dishes. But her invitation was quickly linked to her performance of the same name, where she wrote recipes on the walls with pig's blood: "Mix fresh breast milk with semen, drink..." etc.

Who is this done for? For the Ukrainian people? For the Arab world? For Latin America? No, it is done to please the perverts of the USA and Europe.
By the way. Today the Supreme Council of Ukraine banned the Ukranian Orthodox Church.
Satanists and pedophiles all over the world, unite!

 

[Ace Nova]

How does any of that address your violation of the 2nd commandment?

It is either a commandment or it is not. You seem to view it as a suggestion.

And the passage I quoted from Deuteronomy directly opposes these.

And if Jesus is the god of the bible then he contradicted himself by saying only 2 commandments count. And the love thy neighbor bit is not even in the 10 Commandments

Jesus did not say only 2 commandments "count". He stated that if you truly follow those two commandments, you will follow the entirety of the commandments by nature.

“You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against any of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.”

Leviticus 19:18

 

[Ace Nova]

I hear you. Etymology clarification: In Hebrew and Aramaic, "judge" had the connotation of ruling over. Do not judge in English would have more impact as Do not stand in judgement. That brings both the context of ruler and judging as it was used in Jesus' day. Biblical languages had so few words, that most had to do double-duty. 'Assessment' is a good example--closest word in a Biblical language might well be 'judge.'

The second point is responsibility when one sees someone else doing wrong. Is correcting them their business, their responsibility to stand in judgement? In Jesus' day, it was a common practice to ask fellow citizens to stand as judges over more trivial matters. An interesting question that can't be answered at this date is whether Jesus was cautioning people not to take on this role when two people were having a dispute. If they did, and judged for others, they should expect that the same way they judged to be meted out to them when they were in a position friends were causing for judges about something they did.

It is definitely an interesting passage, but I don't believe it should be given a greater consideration than other passages.

Yes and No. The entirety of Jesus' ministry is based on both the physical and spiritual - every word of his Gospel has both a physical and spiritual meaning.

Was he cautioning them not to take on that role when people were having disputes? Sort of. He wasn't telling them to sit back and watch if folks were breaking the law, etc. He was telling them not to live their day to day lives in a "judgmental way".

Obviously if someone is breaking the law or doing something severely out of line, it's fine to either correct them and/or report them, etc. The idea here is after they have been "corrected" or "reported" you move on with your life, without "judging" those people for making a mistake. Don't hold resentment, prejudice, etc. - just because those people made a mistake does not mean they are to be "judged" by you or are you to assume you are better than they are.

 

[Blues Man]

Jesus did not say only 2 commandments "count". He stated that if you truly follow those two commandments, you will follow the entirety of the commandments by nature.

“You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against any of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.”

Leviticus 19:18

Love your neighbor is not one of the 10 commandments

And I was specifically talking about the second commandment that says make no graven images. Which every Christian violates because every Christian church is filled with statues of Jesus, Mary, and various saints

 

[Ace Nova]

Love your neighbor is not one of the 10 commandments

And I was specifically talking about the second commandment that says make no graven images. Which every Christian violates because every Christian church is filled with statues of Jesus, Mary, and various saints

Christianity believes that the New Testament of Jesus Christ is fulfillment of the Old Testament.

Matthew 5:16

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

I don't know how much you know or understand about both the Old Testament and The New Testament. (Both philosophically and historically) But I would be pleased to answer any other questions you have from both a philosophical and historical perspective. (Non religious, since you apparently have a hostility towards these specific religions).