Zone1 Fascination with the Devil and Hell

[Meriweather]

That is reality.

My point exactly. God is reality and the reality is some are unable to perceive/see/hear Him.

 

[BreezeWood]

Sunrise is reality. God is reality.

they are both metaphysical - neither of which were invented in the 4th century ...

 

[Ace Nova]

Let's bring the idea to Salem. Love God, love one's neighbor. The reason the witch trials flourished there was because some people believed that their love of God had them fighting the devil and the witches who they claimed signed the Devil's book. Their love of neighbor meant they had to get rid of those who were witches before they could delude family, friends, and neighbors into signing the Devil's book.

Those who were doing evil were vowing and convincing others their evil was for the good or ultimate good.

Ever notice how often people who are doing evil assert what they are doing is good? How should good answer that?

Matthew 7:1-6

7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."

And history has judged the Salem Witch Trials, yes?

Good answers it by following the Gospel.

Jesus Christ did not judge others, yet he was unjustly accused and judged. Who are we to judge anyone if Jesus Christ taught us not to judge and he himself did not judge? The entirety of Christianity is based on God's son in the flesh being unjustly accused, judged and crucified.

Our laws are established in order to maintain a civilized society on Earth. (As were the laws of the Old Testament during that time period).

Jesus Christ came to teach us a deeper, more spiritual understanding of God's ways.

Isaiah 55:8-9

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord."

“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts."

 

[Ace Nova]

again, no ...

provide the tablets etched in the heavens w/ 10 commandments claimed by the liar moses or remove the phony text present in all three desert religion documents to ever again step foot on the path to the everlasting.

- to free moses from their torment for the crime to impersonate the heavens they have committed.

Answer this:

Are mankind's ways the same of heaven's ways?

Did Adam and Eve continue to follow the ways of heaven after the Garden of Eden?

 

[Ace Nova]

Funny thing about #2 Every Christian church has graven idols of their gods and saints that they pray to.
and actually #9 uses the term false witness which implies you don't give false testimony against another if it was actually to mean all lies then it's just an impossible standard because our entire society is based on little lies we all tell every day.

And do you really think someone else's wife is his property? That commandment is the very first codified instance of thought control I have ever found.

Saints are people that lived their lives in communion with God and (in most cases) have evidence showing their direct communion with God. Christians pray for Saints' intervention (among others that are/were in direct communion with God) out of humility (Understanding their humanity).

It is done out of reverence and respect for God. (Basically stating they are not worthy to pray to God directly because God's ways and thoughts are higher than their ways and thoughts; Isaiah 55:8-9).

So no, statues, pictures, paintings, etc of Saints, Mary, Jesus, the Apostles, Prophets, Angels, etc are not "Idols". They are a simple way for people to gain a mental, physical (and spiritual) image and understanding of other human beings that that lived their lives while in communion with God.

"Idols" in 2000 - 4000 BC were quite literally small figurines made of clay, slightly smaller that an average modern day doll. (In most cases. In some cases, the "idol" would take form of a large sculpture, etc) People would "pray" and/or give "incantations" to these "dolls/idols".

Certain historical sources state that people believed (or claimed) that these "idols" would come to "life" and could cause both "good" or " bad" depending on the situation. When the 2nd Commandment was written, it was in reference to these "idols".


The 9th commandment states that we should live our lives based on truth. Whether modern day society follows it or not is irrelevant. If we choose to follow God's path, we will live our lives (to the best of our ability) based on truth.









The Ten Commandments date back to almost 2000 BC according to most credible historians (but much older by biblical standards).

 

[Meriweather]

Jesus Christ did not judge others

Oh, yes he did. He judged that some in the Temple had made his house a den of thieves. He judged that a widow gave more than the well-to-do. He judged a few of those who maligned him were of the devil.

 

[Meriweather]

And history has judged the Salem Witch Trials, yes?

The Salem Witch Trials were judging a person's love of God. The "evidence" against them was "spectral", i.e.. dreams girls claimed they had. The astonishing and horrific thing about the Salem Witch Trials is that these young girls were also lying in plain view of the Court, the victims telling the truth--and the Court could not distinguish between the two.

The horror of the Salem Witch Trials is that we see that some crave power over others so much, they have the innocent killed to control the rest. We see this in the trial and crucifixion of Jesus. One man killed to control the rest.

 

[Blues Man]

Saints are people that lived their lives in communion with God and (in most cases) have evidence showing their direct communion with God. Christians pray for Saints' intervention (among others that are/were in direct communion with God) out of humility (Understanding their humanity).

It is done out of reverence and respect for God. (Basically stating they are not worthy to pray to God directly because God's ways and thoughts are higher than their ways and thoughts; Isaiah 55:8-9).

So no, statues, pictures, paintings, etc of Saints, Mary, Jesus, the Apostles, Prophets, Angels, etc are not "Idols". They are a simple way for people to gain a mental, physical (and spiritual) image and understanding of other human beings that that lived their lives while in communion with God.

"Idols" in 2000 - 4000 BC were quite literally small figurines made of clay, slightly smaller that an average modern day doll. (In most cases. In some cases, the "idol" would take form of a large sculpture, etc) People would "pray" and/or give "incantations" to these "dolls/idols".

Certain historical sources state that people believed (or claimed) that these "idols" would come to "life" and could cause both "good" or " bad" depending on the situation. When the 2nd Commandment was written, it was in reference to these "idols".


The 9th commandment states that we should live our lives based on truth. Whether modern day society follows it or not is irrelevant. If we choose to follow God's path, we will live our lives (to the best of our ability) based on truth.









The Ten Commandments date back to almost 2000 BC according to most credible historians (but much older by biblical standards).

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image" (Hebrew: לֹא-תַעֲשֶׂה לְךָ פֶסֶל, וְכָל-תְּמוּנָה, romanized: Lōʾ-ṯaʿăśe ləḵā p̄esel wəḵōl-təmūnā) is an abbreviated form of one of the Ten Commandments which, according to the Book of Deuteronomy, were spoken by God to the Israelites and then written on stone tablets by the Finger of God.[1] It continues, "... any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them."

That seems to me to exclude all statues of saints, gods, or anything else

 

[BreezeWood]

Answer this:

Are mankind's ways the same of heaven's ways?

Did Adam and Eve continue to follow the ways of heaven after the Garden of Eden?

that was their request - to be sent on their journey to return as equals with the heavens that made them.

the advice given for their goal the religion of antiquity was to triumph good vs evil for remittance when they were ready for judgement ... or parish as was implied w/ their request.

 

[buttercup]

.

I never thought about Christ one way or the other until realizing how evil the world has gotten in the last decade or so, at which time I decided I had to acknowledge the presence of that much evil. And if that much evil existed, I also had to acknowledge the necessary existence of a counterforce of Good.

I should thank the evil ones for opening my eyes.

.

Wow, that's so similar to what led me to becoming a believer too. I remember pondering the fact that so many of the world leaders were thoroughly corrupt and evil.... and even though I hadn't really thought about it prior to that point, I intuitively knew that if evil existed, then so did a true good. You can't have evil without anything to measure it against. So the existence of evil is actually evidence for a true objective good.

 

[BreezeWood]

Wow, that's so similar to what led me to becoming a believer too. I remember pondering the fact that so many of the world leaders were thoroughly corrupt and evil.... and even though I hadn't really thought about it prior to that point, I intuitively knew that if evil existed, then so did a true good. You can't have evil without anything to measure it against. So the existence of evil is actually evidence for a true objective good.

that's ridiculous, one does not reflect the other - becoming one or the other is to free ones spirit, simply pass judgement and all will be well.

 

[Ace Nova]

Oh, yes he did. He judged that some in the Temple had made his house a den of thieves. He judged that a widow gave more than the well-to-do. He judged a few of those who maligned him were of the devil.

Is that judging? Or was he teaching?

 

[Ace Nova]

The Salem Witch Trials were judging a person's love of God. The "evidence" against them was "spectral", i.e.. dreams girls claimed they had. The astonishing and horrific thing about the Salem Witch Trials is that these young girls were also lying in plain view of the Court, the victims telling the truth--and the Court could not distinguish between the two.

The horror of the Salem Witch Trials is that we see that some crave power over others so much, they have the innocent killed to control the rest. We see this in the trial and crucifixion of Jesus. One man killed to control the rest.

How does history view the Salem Witch Trials?

 

[Ace Nova]

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image" (Hebrew: לֹא-תַעֲשֶׂה לְךָ פֶסֶל, וְכָל-תְּמוּנָה, romanized: Lōʾ-ṯaʿăśe ləḵā p̄esel wəḵōl-təmūnā) is an abbreviated form of one of the Ten Commandments which, according to the Book of Deuteronomy, were spoken by God to the Israelites and then written on stone tablets by the Finger of God.[1] It continues, "... any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them."

That seems to me to exclude all statues of saints, gods, or anything else

Don't worship idols. Do you believe people worship these things?

People give reverence to God by humbling themselves. When some pray they relate to a sculptures, etc because they do not feel they are worthy to speak to God directly.

It's simple.

 

[Ace Nova]

that was their request - to be sent on their journey to return as equals with the heavens that made them.

the advice given for their goal the religion of antiquity was to triumph good vs evil for remittance when they were ready for judgement ... or parish as was implied w/ their request.

What happened?

 

[Blues Man]

Don't worship idols. Do you believe people worship these things?

People give reverence to God by humbling themselves. When some pray they relate to a sculptures, etc because they do not feel they are worthy to speak to God directly.

It's simple.

Do not MAKE any graven images

So technically any time you draw a picture of a tree you are breaking a commandment so surely carving statues of a god you have never seen and can have no idea what it looks like violates this commandment and Christian churches are full of these things.

So even the religious seem to pick and choose what parts of the bible they want to follow.

 

[Ace Nova]

Do not MAKE any graven images

So technically any time you draw a picture of a tree you are breaking a commandment so surely carving statues of a god you have never seen and can have no idea what it looks like violates this commandment and Christian churches are full of these things.

So even the religious seem to pick and choose what parts of the bible they want to follow.

Are churches to be considered "graven images"? Are Temples to be considered "graven images"? Are Mosques to be considered "graven images"?

God instructed to build a simple altar, made of stone. Anything beyond that could be considered a "graven image", no?

 

[Moonglow]

Satan answers the question, if God is good and loving, why is there so much evil in the world?

God created everything.

 

[Blues Man]

Are churches to be considered "graven images"? Are Temples to be considered "graven images"? Are Mosques to be considered "graven images"?

God instructed to build a simple altar, made of stone. Anything beyond that could be considered a "graven image", no?

Is a building an "image" of anything?

read the entire commandment.

any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under earth

There were no buildings created by the god of the bible were there? Therefore buildings cannot be images of what is in heaven on earth etc

If your god is in heaven above then surely any image of that god created by men is prohibited.

If your god made all the creatures and plants on the earth then surely any images of them ate prohibited

If your god made the water and everything in it then even an image of water itself is prohibited.

How can you justify graven idols of gods and saints in a Christian church that teaches the 10 commandments?

 

[alang1216]

God created everything.

A good God created evil = cognitive dissonance