Eat more Meat.

[buttercup]

And the arrogance continues.

Perhaps I'm not making myself clear. I don't disdain your opinions because I'm like you and don't understand the subject until a picture is drawn for me in bright Crayola colors. I am fully aware of what raising animals for meat entails, and I STILL think you're an illogical jagoff who thinks with her glands rather than her brain.

You've taken my intent and most of my posts in a completely wrong way. Why not just have a conversation without all the hostility? In just about every post, since the get-go, you have replied with anger, name calling and false accusations.

I don't want to falsely accuse you of anything, so in reply to what you just said, let me ask you this. Since you're aware of the exploitation, torture, and cruel practices that take place, yet you just keep talking about how much you want steak, is it safe to say that your position is "I don't give a crap how the animals are treated" ....or how animal agriculture is horrible for the environment (click), or anything else, like the health aspect, etc.? In other words, you just don't care about any of that, because you want your steak and bacon?

Also, WE were never talking about spiritual beliefs at all. YOU tried to digress off onto them because you couldn't make a case based on scientific fact, and you figured if you projected the argument you WANTED me to make onto me, it would be easier than having to answer any arguments I ACTUALLY made.

When speaking to a Christian, it is perfectly OK to bring up the biblical perspective in regard to our original design. You made a claim about how we were designed (the very word design implies a Creator). So you're being unreasonable by claiming that I was wrong to bring that up that up. It would have been wrong if I was speaking to an atheist, but I thought you were a believer. That is not to say that all believers agree, but just to say it is acceptable to bring up the biblical perspective when speaking to a Christian.

Furthermore, do not piss on my leg and then try to convince me it's raining. You didn't post that video, and then when it got responded to in a way that didn't fit what you wanted, come back with, "Well, did you watch it?!" because you weren't assuming that we were all unaware of what's involved in producing meat for food. So spare me your lame protestations of innocence.

Finally, I would certainly like to believe you haven't been trying, because I'd hate to think this has been your best effort.

Listen to yourself. There's nothing wrong with asking the question did you watch it? It was a sincere question, I honestly didn't know if you had watched it or not. Again, your anger and extreme defensiveness is unnecessary, but telling, I think.

 

[buttercup]

`
I love red meat. I also know how to hunt, field dress and cut up (slaughter) deer. I have nothing against vegans.
`

I don't agree with you, but I have more respect for someone like you, who at the very least is not hypocritical. There are tons of meat eaters who could never slaughter a beautiful animal, with their own two hands. Yet they pay someone else to do what would go against their own conscience.

Those are actually the people who I would like to reach. They are the ones who could go vegan, it's just a matter of getting them to see that their values are not aligned with their actions. The "I don't give a crap about animals, I just want my steak" people are an entirely different story.

 

[Cecilie1200]

And the arrogance continues.

Perhaps I'm not making myself clear. I don't disdain your opinions because I'm like you and don't understand the subject until a picture is drawn for me in bright Crayola colors. I am fully aware of what raising animals for meat entails, and I STILL think you're an illogical jagoff who thinks with her glands rather than her brain.

You've taken my intent and most of my posts in a completely wrong way. Why not just have a conversation without all the hostility? In just about every post, since the get-go, you have replied with anger, name calling and false accusations.

I don't want to falsely accuse you of anything, so in reply to what you just said, let me ask you this. Since you're aware of the exploitation, torture, and cruel practices that take place, yet you just keep talking about how much you want steak, is it safe to say that your position is "I don't give a crap how the animals are treated" ....or how animal agriculture is horrible for the environment (click), or anything else, like the health aspect, etc.? In other words, you just don't care about any of that, because you want your steak and bacon?

Also, WE were never talking about spiritual beliefs at all. YOU tried to digress off onto them because you couldn't make a case based on scientific fact, and you figured if you projected the argument you WANTED me to make onto me, it would be easier than having to answer any arguments I ACTUALLY made.

When speaking to a Christian, it is perfectly OK to bring up the biblical perspective in regard to our original design. You made a claim about how we were designed (the very word design implies a Creator). So you're being unreasonable by claiming that I was wrong to bring that up that up. It would have been wrong if I was speaking to an atheist, but I thought you were a believer. That is not to say that all believers agree, but just to say it is acceptable to bring up the biblical perspective when speaking to a Christian.

Furthermore, do not piss on my leg and then try to convince me it's raining. You didn't post that video, and then when it got responded to in a way that didn't fit what you wanted, come back with, "Well, did you watch it?!" because you weren't assuming that we were all unaware of what's involved in producing meat for food. So spare me your lame protestations of innocence.

Finally, I would certainly like to believe you haven't been trying, because I'd hate to think this has been your best effort.

Listen to yourself. There's nothing wrong with asking the question did you watch it? It was a sincere question, I honestly didn't know if you had watched it or not. Again, your anger and extreme defensiveness is unnecessary, but telling, I think.

"I don't need to be sensible or relevant. YOU need to be nice enough to respect my posts whether they deserve it or not!"

Yeah, no. Whining about a lack of niceness when you haven't earned it is also not going to work.

I have taken your posts exactly as they appear. If that's not how you wanted people to think of you, maybe the problem isn't that THEY need to work harder at reading your mind and attributing lofty and high-minded ideals to you; maybe it's that YOU need to consider how you present yourself.

Also, you are still making ASSumptions. If you REALLY don't intend to come off arrogant and snotty, losing the ASSumptions would be a good place to start. How about you just ask me, straight up, what my thoughts and positions are, rather than giving me this bullshit about "Is it safe to assume you just don't give a shit, because if you did you'd be a vegan"? Shockingly, veganism is NOT the only thoughtful, moral position to take, and saying it is does NOT look as though you aren't trying to be a condescending jerk.

Second, it is NEVER "perfectly OK" to create straw men and then try to force other people to be responsible for arguments they have not made. I don't care what the context of your straw man is. If a Christian wishes to make a bibilical argument, they will do so. If they are not doing so, there's probably a reason for that, and it makes your attempt to project that onto them rude and offensive. It is never unreasonable for someone to point out to you that you are trying to frame both sides of the debate; you just don't like having been caught out at it.

I did not make a generic argument about us "being designed" that would allow you to run pell-mell down the Biblical path; I specifically said, "designed by Nature", referring to the biological make-up of human beings. I did so very deliberately in order to NOT make it in any way Biblical or religious, precisely BECAUSE I wanted to keep the discussion strictly on observable scientific fact rather than getting off on tangents of religious belief. I recognize that not everyone shares my religion, which is the primary reason that I do not make appeals to Biblical authority as a general rule.

It is 100% wrong to make other people's religion the focus of the argument before they themselves bring it up. Not only is it an example of your aforementioned arrogance in trying to frame both sides of the debate, it's also just nosy and rude. If I want to talk about my personal life or beliefs, I'll let you know. It's not for YOU to decide for me.

Listen to YOURSELF. You wander around displaying a shocking level of crass bad manners, and then compound it by declaring that anyone who notices and calls you out on it MUST be doing it not because you're boorish and arrogant, but because they're defensive.

Offending people isn't a sign that you're right, honey. Any dumbass can manage that.

We're done wasting time discussing your lack of class and logic. Either make a real point, or begone. You and your self-absorption bore me.

 

[buttercup]

"I don't need to be sensible or relevant. YOU need to be nice enough to respect my posts whether they deserve it or not!"

Yeah, no. Whining about a lack of niceness when you haven't earned it is also not going to work.

I have taken your posts exactly as they appear. If that's not how you wanted people to think of you, maybe the problem isn't that THEY need to work harder at reading your mind and attributing lofty and high-minded ideals to you; maybe it's that YOU need to consider how you present yourself.

Also, you are still making ASSumptions. If you REALLY don't intend to come off arrogant and snotty, losing the ASSumptions would be a good place to start. How about you just ask me, straight up, what my thoughts and positions are, rather than giving me this bullshit about "Is it safe to assume you just don't give a shit, because if you did you'd be a vegan"? Shockingly, veganism is NOT the only thoughtful, moral position to take, and saying it is does NOT look as though you aren't trying to be a condescending jerk.

Second, it is NEVER "perfectly OK" to create straw men and then try to force other people to be responsible for arguments they have not made. I don't care what the context of your straw man is. If a Christian wishes to make a bibilical argument, they will do so. If they are not doing so, there's probably a reason for that, and it makes your attempt to project that onto them rude and offensive. It is never unreasonable for someone to point out to you that you are trying to frame both sides of the debate; you just don't like having been caught out at it.

I did not make a generic argument about us "being designed" that would allow you to run pell-mell down the Biblical path; I specifically said, "designed by Nature", referring to the biological make-up of human beings. I did so very deliberately in order to NOT make it in any way Biblical or religious, precisely BECAUSE I wanted to keep the discussion strictly on observable scientific fact rather than getting off on tangents of religious belief. I recognize that not everyone shares my religion, which is the primary reason that I do not make appeals to Biblical authority as a general rule.

It is 100% wrong to make other people's religion the focus of the argument before they themselves bring it up. Not only is it an example of your aforementioned arrogance in trying to frame both sides of the debate, it's also just nosy and rude. If I want to talk about my personal life or beliefs, I'll let you know. It's not for YOU to decide for me.

Listen to YOURSELF. You wander around displaying a shocking level of crass bad manners, and then compound it by declaring that anyone who notices and calls you out on it MUST be doing it not because you're boorish and arrogant, but because they're defensive.

Offending people isn't a sign that you're right, honey. Any dumbass can manage that.

We're done wasting time discussing your lack of class and logic. Either make a real point, or begone. You and your self-absorption bore me.

You need to look in the mirror. I don't care if people are not nice. "A lack of niceness" can be a neutral thing. Over the top hostility and nonstop personal attacks is not neutral, it's way beyond that. (and then you accuse me of being boorish? That's laughable.) But even that is not a big deal, as long as the person understands the other person's intent and posts. That's the problem, you haven't. You have created a false perception in your mind, and you're responding based on that perception.

But you're right about one thing, this discussion is going nowhere. Have a great rest of the day!

 

[Cecilie1200]

`
I love red meat. I also know how to hunt, field dress and cut up (slaughter) deer. I have nothing against vegans.
`

I don't agree with you, but I have more respect for someone like you, who at the very least is not hypocritical. There are tons of meat eaters who could never slaughter a beautiful animal, with their own two hands. Yet they pay someone else to do what would go against their own conscience.

Those are actually the people who I would like to reach. They are the ones who could go vegan, it's just a matter of getting them to see that their values are not aligned with their actions. The "I don't give a crap about animals, I just want my steak" people are an entirely different story.

Learn the difference between "goes against their conscience" and "finds it messy and disgusting". A lot of people ALSO pay someone else to scrub their toilets, but I'm pretty sure it's not because they secretly have a moral objection to killing germs and bacteria. Yet again, you make ASSumptions and project onto others based on nothing more than your own blind - and utterly undeserved - belief in your own moral loftiness.

And why do you need to "reach" anyone? What possible effing business is it of yours what other people's dietary preferences are?

 

[Cecilie1200]

"I don't need to be sensible or relevant. YOU need to be nice enough to respect my posts whether they deserve it or not!"

Yeah, no. Whining about a lack of niceness when you haven't earned it is also not going to work.

I have taken your posts exactly as they appear. If that's not how you wanted people to think of you, maybe the problem isn't that THEY need to work harder at reading your mind and attributing lofty and high-minded ideals to you; maybe it's that YOU need to consider how you present yourself.

Also, you are still making ASSumptions. If you REALLY don't intend to come off arrogant and snotty, losing the ASSumptions would be a good place to start. How about you just ask me, straight up, what my thoughts and positions are, rather than giving me this bullshit about "Is it safe to assume you just don't give a shit, because if you did you'd be a vegan"? Shockingly, veganism is NOT the only thoughtful, moral position to take, and saying it is does NOT look as though you aren't trying to be a condescending jerk.

Second, it is NEVER "perfectly OK" to create straw men and then try to force other people to be responsible for arguments they have not made. I don't care what the context of your straw man is. If a Christian wishes to make a bibilical argument, they will do so. If they are not doing so, there's probably a reason for that, and it makes your attempt to project that onto them rude and offensive. It is never unreasonable for someone to point out to you that you are trying to frame both sides of the debate; you just don't like having been caught out at it.

I did not make a generic argument about us "being designed" that would allow you to run pell-mell down the Biblical path; I specifically said, "designed by Nature", referring to the biological make-up of human beings. I did so very deliberately in order to NOT make it in any way Biblical or religious, precisely BECAUSE I wanted to keep the discussion strictly on observable scientific fact rather than getting off on tangents of religious belief. I recognize that not everyone shares my religion, which is the primary reason that I do not make appeals to Biblical authority as a general rule.

It is 100% wrong to make other people's religion the focus of the argument before they themselves bring it up. Not only is it an example of your aforementioned arrogance in trying to frame both sides of the debate, it's also just nosy and rude. If I want to talk about my personal life or beliefs, I'll let you know. It's not for YOU to decide for me.

Listen to YOURSELF. You wander around displaying a shocking level of crass bad manners, and then compound it by declaring that anyone who notices and calls you out on it MUST be doing it not because you're boorish and arrogant, but because they're defensive.

Offending people isn't a sign that you're right, honey. Any dumbass can manage that.

We're done wasting time discussing your lack of class and logic. Either make a real point, or begone. You and your self-absorption bore me.

You need to look in the mirror. I don't care if people are not nice. "A lack of niceness" can be a neutral thing. Over the top hostility and nonstop personal attacks is not neutral, it's way beyond that. (and then you accuse me of being boorish? That's laughable.) But even that is not a big deal, as long as the person understands the other person's intent and posts. That's the problem, you haven't. You have created a false perception in your mind, and you're responding based on that perception.

But you're right about one thing, this discussion is going nowhere. Have a great rest of the day!

Oh, OF COURSE you don't care if people are nice. That's why you're whinging about it. Spare me, Chuckles. You thought your "passion" and "sincere belief" were going to carry you roughshod over everyone without any need to actually think or make logical arguments, and then you were shocked and horrified that you weren't greeted with shouts of acclimation.

I understand your intent AND your posts all too well. That's why you're now flouncing away: because it didn't work.

I'll be having a great rest of the day now that the sanctimonious anti-meat missionary has taken her nosy-neighbor act on the road, thanks.

 

[buttercup]

Learn the difference between "goes against their conscience" and "finds it messy and disgusting". A lot of people ALSO pay someone else to scrub their toilets, but I'm pretty sure it's not because they secretly have a moral objection to killing germs and bacteria. Yet again, you make ASSumptions and project onto others based on nothing more than your own blind - and utterly undeserved - belief in your own moral loftiness.

And why do you need to "reach" anyone? What possible effing business is it of yours what other people's dietary preferences are?

What happened to "being done with wasting your time"? To answer your post above, I know the difference between someone finding it messy and disgusting, and it going against a person's conscience. (Talk about making assumptions!)

I was talking about the latter. And I hope you're not claiming that those people don't exist. They sure as hell do. They are the ones who love animals, but haven't done any research on the animal industries, and actually believe that the animals are treated "humanely." They are the ones who haven't even really given thought to whether or not they could slit the throat of a beautiful lamb, or cow, or pig.

You ask what "effing business" it is what other people's dietary preferences are, I'll answer you. When there is a victim involved, and there certainly is, and when it affects the entire world, which it absolutely does, then it is fair game to try to raise awareness, or reach anyone who is willing to listen. I don't believe in forcing anyone to do anything, and I respect a person's wishes if they do not want to discuss it. I have a website and social media pages, that people can either click on, or not. No one is holding a gun to their head.

 

[buttercup]

Oh, OF COURSE you don't care if people are nice. That's why you're whinging about it. Spare me, Chuckles. You thought your "passion" and "sincere belief" were going to carry you roughshod over everyone without any need to actually think or make logical arguments, and then you were shocked and horrified that you weren't greeted with shouts of acclimation.

I understand your intent AND your posts all too well. That's why you're now flouncing away: because it didn't work.

I'll be having a great rest of the day now that the sanctimonious anti-meat missionary has taken her nosy-neighbor act on the road, thanks.

Wrong again. I was not shocked or horrified, I've observed tons of these types of debates, and your response is very, very typical. I do expect a little more from Christians, so in that regard, it is disappointing. But I'm not offended or shocked or horrified by the general population acting the way they do in these debates, in fact I expect it.

And no, you did not understand my intent, and to claim that you did is the height of arrogance. (Which is all the more ironic.) You didn't even understand my analogy of images of aborted fetuses, but that's OK. Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough.

 

[Natural Citizen]

I do expect a little more from Christians, so in that regard, it is disappointing. But I'm not offended or shocked or horrified by the general population acting the way they do in these debates, in fact I expect it.

Many, if not most, whom identify as Christian in modern America are very secular. Very worldly. Is what it is. Shake the dust off your feet. Right?

It's refreshing to see that you didn't once infer that you wanted the government to force people to eat a specific menu. So, props for that.

Funny thing is that most of my so-called conservative peers would be content to have the FDA kicking our doors down, guns drawn, because feels. Heh heh.

 

[Natural Citizen]

`
I love red meat. I also know how to hunt, field dress and cut up (slaughter) deer. I have nothing against vegans.
`

Good skill to have. That was basic training at age 10 where I come from.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I do expect a little more from Christians, so in that regard, it is disappointing. But I'm not offended or shocked or horrified by the general population acting the way they do in these debates, in fact I expect it.

Many, if not most, whom identify as Christian in modern America are very secular. Very worldly. Is what it is. Shake the dust off your feet. Right?

It's refreshing to see that you didn't once infer that you wanted the government to force people to eat a specific menu. So, props for that.

Funny thing is that most of my so-caled conservative peers would be content to have the FDA kicking our doors down because feels. Heh heh.

Nice try. Has nothing to do with me being secular. Has to do with "the Bible says so" being the logical fallacy of Appeal to Authority. Unless you are talking to another person who shares your beliefs AND the topic happens to actually be the Bible, it is neither a valid nor a useful argument.

Also, it always has been and always will be bad manners to bring someone else's beliefs into an argument if they don't do it themselves.

Given that you prefer taking vague, generalized snipes from the peanut gallery at "conservative peers" and what they would do and why, rather than debating ACTUAL actions and positions with ACTUAL people, I can only assume that you, like Buttercup, have jack shit beyond what you really WISH the debate was.

I'm so glad you two found each other, because you clearly have a rich fantasy debating life in common.

 

[Natural Citizen]

blah blah blah

Get back in your hole. I wasn't talking to you. Is your name buttercup? pst...

 

[buttercup]

Many, if not most, whom identify as Christian in modern America are very secular. Very worldly. Is what it is. Shake the dust off your feet. Right?

It's refreshing to see that you didn't once infer that you wanted the government to force people to eat a specific menu. So, props for that.

Yes, that's sad but true. As a matter fact, that is one of the reasons why I was a nonbeliever for most of my life. Because growing up, what I saw was people who claimed to be religious, but acted exactly like everyone else in the world. So I honestly thought that religion was nothing but a cultural thing, with no truth attached to it. So like many people, I made the mistake of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Good point about shaking the dust off one's feet. That is kind of what I was saying earlier, to someone else, when I said that the people I would like to reach are those whose values are not aligned with their actions, due to sincere ignorance. And there are tons of people like that. Also, I think there are many people who are willfully blind. I've heard people actually admit that, flat out. They'll say things like "I don't want to see that, or else I will have to go vegan". lol It's kind of funny, but at the same time I wish they knew that if they would choose to open their eyes and look at the ugly reality, they will find that going vegan is not in any way shape or form a bad thing… For most, it becomes a life-changing turning point, and one of the best decisions they ever made. Our only regret is not doing it years sooner. (The pic below says it all)

 

[Windparadox]

Good skill to have. That was basic training at age 10 where I come from.[/QUO

`
I moved up here to northern Wisconsin from Milwaukee about 12 years ago. I learned all these skills from some of the old timers up here who didn't think a city girl could learn this stuff. They are proud of me now.

 

[Cecilie1200]

blah blah blah

Get back in your hole. I wasn't talking to you. Is your name buttercup? pst...

Is this a private message? Pssst.

If you want to kiss Buttercup's ass without public commentary, maybe don't do it in a public thread, numbnuts.

 

[Cecilie1200]

For all the sanctimony and self-congratulation welling up in this thread.

 

[Natural Citizen]

blah blah blah

Get back in your hole. I wasn't talking to you. Is your name buttercup? pst...

Is this a private message? Pssst.

If you want to kiss Buttercup's ass without public commentary, maybe don't do it in a public thread, numbnuts.

Well, she's not one of those feminazis who keep their men in the kitchen peeling her potatoes. Know what I mean?

 

[Natural Citizen]

Good skill to have. That was basic training at age 10 where I come from.[/QUO

`
I moved up here to northern Wisconsin from Milwaukee about 12 years ago. I learned all these skills from some of the old timers up here who didn't think a city girl could learn this stuff. They are proud of me now.

Hey, a city girl can survive. Ha.

 

[Windparadox]

Hey, a city girl can survive. Ha.

`
The hardest thing for me to learn was "field dressing" a deer. I was squeamish at first but now, it's no big deal, just something you have to do.
`

 

[Natural Citizen]

Hey, a city girl can survive. Ha.

`
The hardest thing for me to learn was "field dressing" a deer. I was squeamish at first but now, it's no big deal, just something you have to do.
`

Yeah. I know what you mean. It's spiritual, for sure. Especially the first one. Worst part about it for me was humping it up the side of a mountain. ATVs have changed that, of course.

Anyway. That's good. You're in a small Minority. At the rate things are going, it might become a necessary skill.