Do our rights come from nature and God as Paul Ryan says?

[peach174]

Declaration of Independence is not law, merely a statement of why we left Great Britain.

Our Constitution is a secular document, which in no way states our rights are God given.

The two go together.
No it is not secular. It states in our Constitution that Government business can not be conducted on Sundays.

 

[California Girl]

Paul Ryan keeps saying our rights come from nature and God not the government. Actually, they come from "we the people" and we decide the rights that government puts foward through our representatives, referendums and so forth. Nature dictates some of our limitiations only. But we have been able to overcome a lot of those. God? If you believe in him, I thought he gave us free will to decide things for ourselves?

Depends on whether you respect the Declaration of Independence. That says we are 'endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights. Among those rights are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

You can't vote my rights away and I can't vote yours away... so, no, they don't come from 'we, the people'.

 

[Contumacious]

It seems obvious now that since we have no idea what our rights are or where they come from we are losing them.

Either the powers that be accept that Natural rights are rights not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs of any particular culture or government, and therefore universal and inalienable or

V-I-O-L-E-N-C-E.

.

.

 

[Greenbeard]

You can't vote my rights away and I can't vote yours away... so, no, they don't come from 'we, the people'.

Why not?

 

[Contumacious]

You can't vote my rights away and I can't vote yours away... so, no, they don't come from 'we, the people'.

Why not?

.

 

[Katzndogz]

You can't vote my rights away and I can't vote yours away... so, no, they don't come from 'we, the people'.

Why not?

Because if they could be voted away, they wouldn't be inalienable.

 

[G.T.]

You can't vote my rights away and I can't vote yours away... so, no, they don't come from 'we, the people'.

Why not?

Because if they could be voted away, they wouldn't be inalienable.

His point was, they cant be voted away because the people put that to paper.

If you still dont get the contradiction - meh.

 

[IGetItAlready]

Paul Ryan keeps saying our rights come from nature and God not the government. Actually, they come from "we the people" and we decide the rights that government puts foward through our representatives, referendums and so forth. Nature dictates some of our limitiations only. But we have been able to overcome a lot of those. God? If you believe in him, I thought he gave us free will to decide things for ourselves?

Holy shit already!!!
Read your founding documentation one time.

And don't give me any of the bagged "translation" arguments until you've also read all 85 federalist papers.

Then come back and tell us all, as the founders believed, that if MAN is the provider of our rights, MAN can take those rights away.

 

[B. Kidd]

Declaration of Independence is not law, merely a statement of why we left Great Britain.

Our Constitution is a secular document, which in no way states our rights are God given.

The significance of 'Declarations' is that they provide a direction and/or vision on which 'Constitutions' are founded.

 

[there4eyeM]

As said in another thread, 'rights' are a human term and idea. As such, they are totally subject to human ways of dealing with ideas.

What you can both conceive of as a right and can exercise is a right.

 

[Contumacious]

As said in another thread, 'rights' are a human term and idea. As such, they are totally subject to human ways of dealing with ideas.

What you can both conceive of as a right and can exercise is a right.

.

 

[JoeB131]

Paul Ryan keeps saying our rights come from nature and God not the government. Actually, they come from "we the people" and we decide the rights that government puts foward through our representatives, referendums and so forth. Nature dictates some of our limitiations only. But we have been able to overcome a lot of those. God? If you believe in him, I thought he gave us free will to decide things for ourselves?

As George Carlin pointed out, there are no rights, really.

There are privilages society at large lets you have. And if society at large decides to take them away, that's really about it.

Just ask the Japanese-Americans of 1942.

Now, that all said, the only way to really preserve our rights is to realize that in protecting those of others, we preserve our own.

"I disagree with what you say, but I will fight for your right to say it."

 

[there4eyeM]

As said in another thread, 'rights' are a human term and idea. As such, they are totally subject to human ways of dealing with ideas.

What you can both conceive of as a right and can exercise is a right.

.

Glad you see the point.

 

[NYcarbineer]

...rights are established and secured through social consensus.

That is simply not true. Rights may be restricted through the legislative process, but the rights we're talking about, you're born with. We can debate on what is and what isn't an inherent right, but you are very wrong that rights come through democracy or through social consensus. Just flat out wrong.

I am amazed that there is this much ignorance on this subject. It is the very founding principal that differentiated the USA from all previous societies.

Ah the wonders of public education...

Then why can the right of gays to same sex marriage be so easily ignored, and denied?

 

[Contumacious]

...rights are established and secured through social consensus.

That is simply not true. Rights may be restricted through the legislative process, but the rights we're talking about, you're born with. We can debate on what is and what isn't an inherent right, but you are very wrong that rights come through democracy or through social consensus. Just flat out wrong.

I am amazed that there is this much ignorance on this subject. It is the very founding principal that differentiated the USA from all previous societies.

Ah the wonders of public education...

Then why can the right of gays to same sex marriage be so easily ignored, and denied?

Rights are (1) to Life (2) Liberty (3) Property (4) Pursue Happiness.

/.

 

[Katzndogz]

Why not?

Because if they could be voted away, they wouldn't be inalienable.

His point was, they cant be voted away because the people put that to paper.

If you still dont get the contradiction - meh.

Then the people could just as well change their minds and write a new law.

 

[there4eyeM]

They believed those rights were inalienable. To "hold" essentially means 'believe'.

That, by itself, is not proof of the truth of the belief.

And those were some, not all of the rights.

 

[there4eyeM]

"Then the people could just as well change their minds and write a new law."

That is what happens, yes.

....?

 

[CrazedScotsman]

Paul Ryan keeps saying our rights come from nature and God not the government. Actually, they come from "we the people" and we decide the rights that government puts foward through our representatives, referendums and so forth. Nature dictates some of our limitiations only. But we have been able to overcome a lot of those. God? If you believe in him, I thought he gave us free will to decide things for ourselves?

Actually, the Bill of Rights are more like "Fence Laws". They are there to keep government from infringing on everyone's rights by God or Nature.

For instance, a church may have a rule where all women need to dress from head to toe with every patch of skin covered except for the hands and face. This is a rule, or law, a "Fence Law", to keep men from committing adultery in their hearts.

 

[JakeStarkey]

That's your opinion and non-binding on anyone.

Declaration of Independence is not law, merely a statement of why we left Great Britain.

Our Constitution is a secular document, which in no way states our rights are God given.

The significance of 'Declarations' is that they provide a direction and/or vision on which 'Constitutions' are founded.