Zone1 Jews confronted with Tanakh

[theHawk]

Several of the self-proclaimed Jews and even Rabbis here on this board have claimed they do study the Tanakh. Theyhave made claims they don’t revere the Talmud more.


Jews in the streets of Israel are confronted with passages from the Old Testament, and you can plainly see they have no real answers. “I must consult my Rabbi.” Apparently actually reading the text from the Tanakh can easily be “misinterpreted“. In other words don’t believe your eyes, but instead listen to some Talmudic rabbi.

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^^ the above man in the video admits they do NOT teach the Tanakh, only the Talmud.

 

[luiza]

Surprising that the Chosen Ones have not got a consistent, reliable and fair God to help them out of this unholy mess they have got themselves into .

But it is near the end of the season and methinks they need to get into the Transfer Market fast .

 

[Sayaras]

This is so typical Nazi Luiza sh#t racist OUTCAST Troll.


Hamas supporter in London says the quiet part out loud

“Hitler knew how to deal with these people"

It always has been pure Jew-hatred under the guise of anti-Zionism.

Watch more from @ThevoiceAlexa on the ground at https://t.co/RP773XzDEP.

pic.twitter.com/JpiXSfptLW

— Avi Yemini (@OzraeliAvi) November 11, 2023

BBC journalist is blasted for online post saying #HitlerWasRight

Tala Halawa had claimed 'Israel is more Nazi than Hitler' and told the Israeli Defence Force to 'go to hell' in an online post on July 20, 2014, before she was a digital reporter at the BBC.

www.dailymail.co.uk

BBC investigating reporter who tweeted ‘Hitler was right,’ compared Israel to Nazis

Digital journalist Tala Halawa is a Palestine Specialist for the Corporation’s BBC Monitoring service and has reported on the recent deadly hostilities between Israel and Hamas.

nypost.com

Swastikas over Gaza

Nazi-Arab Palestine plot
Since WW2
Nazi Palestine

Outcast racist Luiza also likes to push conspiracy theories. As is users, posters don't post their own opinions individually.

 

[fncceo]

It's hard to imagine how someone can become so hate-filled and obsessed with a people who have never harmed that person and who has, most probably never met a Jew except probably his boss, his landlord, or his court-appointed attorney.

 

[Sayaras]

It's hard to imagine how someone can become so hate-filled and obsessed with a people who have never harmed that person and who has, most probably never met a Jew except probably his boss, his landlord, or his court-appointed attorney.

Yup

 

[luiza]

I see our remaing Forum Outcast is shivering in his socks as the several Freedom Fighting groups mop up the young inexperienced Nazi IDF .
Pack your bags Hasbara Troll and join your pals in Khazaria , the former Ukraine .

 

[TruthNotBS]

Several of the self-proclaimed Jews and even Rabbis here on this board have claimed they do study the Tanakh. Theyhave made claims they don’t revere the Talmud more.


Jews in the streets of Israel are confronted with passages from the Old Testament, and you can plainly see they have no real answers. “I must consult my Rabbi.” Apparently actually reading the text from the Tanakh can easily be “misinterpreted“. In other words don’t believe your eyes, but instead listen to some Talmudic rabbi.

View attachment 937939
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View attachment 937940

^^ the above man in the video admits they do NOT teach the Tanakh, only the Talmud.

Most Orthodox Jews aren't well versed on Christian "proof texts", so if you present them with an argument for Jesus being the Messiah or YHWH incarnate, it's often the case that they don't know what you're talking about. That's why they'll admit they don't know and they're going to ask their rabbis for their opinion on what the Christian is claiming.

Not all Jews are oblivious to what Christian missionaries claim and are able to debunk all of their fallacious, silly arguments. That's really what Christian arguments from the TaNaK amount to. Here are a few Jews who shred Christian arguments to pieces:

https://www.youtube.com/@ToviaSinger1

https://www.youtube.com/@JewsforJudaismCanada

​

Most Orthodox Jews don't interact much with Christian missionaries, or Christians who are actively trying to convert them, hence your false perception that Judaism doesn't have a response to Christian theology. That's not true as is evident by Jewish rabbis like Tovia Singer and Skobak. As noted earlier they turn Christian arguments into mincemeat. Chop chop chop chop chop....little pieces. There's a Jewish rabbi here in the forum with the nickname "Rosend". He's quite knowledgeable, maybe he'll walk into the thread (into the Salloon) and teach everyone a lesson.

​

 

[theHawk]

Most Orthodox Jews aren't well versed on Christian "proof texts", so if you present them with an argument for Jesus being the Messiah or YHWH incarnate, it's often the case that they don't know what you're talking about. That's why they'll admit they don't know and they're going to ask their rabbis for their opinion on what the Christian is claiming.

Not all Jews are oblivious to what Christian missionaries claim and are able to debunk all of their fallacious, silly arguments. That's really what Christian arguments from the TaNaK amount to. Here are a few Jews who shred Christian arguments to pieces:

https://www.youtube.com/@ToviaSinger1

https://www.youtube.com/@JewsforJudaismCanada

​

Most Orthodox Jews don't interact much with Christian missionaries, or Christians who are actively trying to convert them, hence your false perception that Judaism doesn't have a response to Christian theology. That's not true as is evident by Jewish rabbis like Tovia Singer and Skobak. As noted earlier they turn Christian arguments into mincemeat. Chop chop chop chop chop....little pieces. There's a Jewish rabbi here in the forum with the nickname "Rosend". He's quite knowledgeable, maybe he'll walk into the thread (into the Salloon) and teach everyone a lesson.

View attachment 938003​

Thanks for proving my point, Jews don’t know the Bible at all and instead run to some supposed “expert”, who in turn lies to them by telling them the words in those texts don’t really mean what they say.

Genesis 19:24 shows there are two Yahweh
יהוה rained upon Sodom and Gomorrah sulfurous fire from יהוה out of heaven—

In Judges 6, Gideon is visited by the Angel of the Lord, who is the Lord.

He is also visited by the Spirit of the Lord:
34 The Spirit of the Lord came upon Gideon, and he blew his trumpet, summoning those who were in Abiezer to follow him



But Talmudic Jews ignore or lie about these scriptures and many more found in the Old Testament.

 

[TruthNotBS]

This is so typical Nazi Luiza sh#t racist OUTCAST Troll.


Hamas supporter in London says the quiet part out loud

“Hitler knew how to deal with these people"

It always has been pure Jew-hatred under the guise of anti-Zionism.

Watch more from @ThevoiceAlexa on the ground at https://t.co/RP773XzDEP.

pic.twitter.com/JpiXSfptLW

— Avi Yemini (@OzraeliAvi) November 11, 2023

BBC journalist is blasted for online post saying #HitlerWasRight

Tala Halawa had claimed 'Israel is more Nazi than Hitler' and told the Israeli Defence Force to 'go to hell' in an online post on July 20, 2014, before she was a digital reporter at the BBC.

www.dailymail.co.uk

BBC investigating reporter who tweeted ‘Hitler was right,’ compared Israel to Nazis

Digital journalist Tala Halawa is a Palestine Specialist for the Corporation’s BBC Monitoring service and has reported on the recent deadly hostilities between Israel and Hamas.

nypost.com

Swastikas over Gaza

Nazi-Arab Palestine plot
Since WW2
Nazi Palestine

Outcast racist Luiza also likes to push conspiracy theories. As is users, posters don't post their own opinions individually.

The Palestinians or Arabs of the Holy Land, were pro-German because Britain was occupying what they perceived to be their land and they hated the idea of the land they'd lived in for centuries to become Jewish. It doesn't help when Israel is a secular Jewish State, that refuses to enforce the Torah, because that leads Israel into the trap of thinking that they can and should establish a Western-style democracy. In 1967 when Israel had the opportunity to take the Temple Mount and move the "Muslim Dome" and Al Aqsa to Saudi Arabia, piece by piece, they failed, due to lack of discernment and fear.

They feared the negative political repercussions of taking a hard stance for YHWH and His Torah. In other words, they fear men, more than YHWH. That's why the nation of Israel is now at the edge of oblivion, in the most dangerous situation it has ever faced, militarily, politically, and economically. etc. If the Jewish people refuse to take the bull by the horns, making Israel a genuine, true Jewish State under the authority of YHWH and a Sanhedrin, it will cease to be on the map.

The Israeli government must enforce Torah and that includes expelling of the non-Jews who refuse to keep the seven laws of Noah A Shem Toshav, a legal non-Jewish resident of the Jewish State must keep the seven laws and love YHWH and the nation of Israel. For the Israelis to accept anything less than that, is national suicide, the annihilation of the nation of Israel, essentially another Holocaust. Why do the Jewish people allow non-Jews, to live in their country, who hate their guts and want to destroy them? Do you allow poisonous snakes, spiders, and scorpions to roam around inside your home? In your bedroom, in your living room. No one does that, unless they're nuts.

Is Israel crazy? Fearing human beings, the opinion of the nations, rather than the opinion of YHWH and His Tzabaoth. That's the main problem that Israel has created, its refusal to keep Torah and its continual rebellion against YHWH:

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After centuries of persecution, living in other people's lands, and a Holocaust, your checking account in YHWH's Central Bank, had enough of a balance, to hand you the land of Israel. The land of YHWH, that gave birth to the Jewish people. The Muslims have plenty of good real estate, from Morrocco in the West, to Indonesia in the far East, to lands bordering Russia to the North. They have millions of square miles, and the Jewish people have a small strip of land in the Middle East.

Why should the Israelis allow Palestinians (a group of people calling themselves by the name of Israel's ancient archenemy), to remain in their country? Kick them ALL out already. Jewish people have a reputation for being smart, but for heaven's sake when it comes to how you've handled these Palestinians, you've created a quagmire of unnecessary problems and bullshit for yourselves.

Round up all of the Palestinians at gunpoint, force them on busses or cargo ships, and send them on their way, to other Arab nations or Edom (Europe, US). Send them off. Bye bye. Take the Temple Mount and build the third Temple.

Turn the "Dome Of The Rock" and "Al Aqsa" into synagogues or into part of the temple (assuming that is permitted, that's for the experts of halacha to determine) or take them apart and send them in pieces to Mecca. The Muslims turned the church of Hagia Sophia:

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Into a giant mosque. That was like the Vatican of the East, hundreds of years ago. The Ottomans turned it into a mosque, so why can't the Jews turn "The Dome" and Al Aqsa into synagogues or part of the Jewish Temple? They have no moral high ground upon which to stand and point their crooked, feculent finger at Jews.

The point is that, the Jewish people who now have Israel back on the map, have to commit themselves to the covenant that YHWH made with them. To do otherwise is to destroy Israel, because the only way that Israel is going to survive and thrive is if it dedicates itself to YHWH and His Torah. The Jewish people without Torah are nationalist-nihilists, secular Jewish nationalists, are not within the plan or design of YHWH.

Jews are either extremely good for YHWH's creation, as the cohanim of mankind, the mediators between YHWH and this lower, physical realm, allowing non-Jews to know their Creator, and establish an intimate relationship with Him, or are extremely toxic and destructive, when they refuse to step into their chosen role. In reality, there's really no such thing as a secular "chosen" Jew. You're not living within your "chosenness", as an atheist or secularist, yet many of you still see yourselves as "special" and "good". What's special and precious about Jews is their unique covenantal relationship with YHWH, which includes a Torah that must be observed.

As a Jew you have a higher potential for experiencing and doing good, but that comes with the price of being more responsible. When you step into your leadership role, as a priest, a cohen, of the nations, doing good, you're uniquely blessed by YHWH and empowered, but when you pretend to be something other than what you actually are, refusing to accept your role as a holy priest, guardian and mediator, before YHWH and His Tzabaoth, you curse yourself and everyone around you. Just like Adam through his rebellion cursed the ground beneath his feet and all of creation, the Jew does the same when he rebels against YHWH. We, the goyim, are doomed.

Doomed to destruction, are the nations without the righteous Jew. Without the Jews who keep Torah, humanity becomes demonic and animalistic. We goyim devolve into monkeydom, due to our ignorance and inability to wrestle and negotiate with Elohim. Jacob was chosen to wrestle with spiritual forces, in a unique way, and if humanity doesn't have its guardians and mediators, it is lost in the wilderness, without recourse for redemption. Humanity needs Israel, to step into its role as head of the nations before YHWH and His Tzabaoth. The Temple must be rebuilt ASAP, and the enemies of Israel, who creep in the land like scorpions must be expelled.

 

[rosends]

I will try to explain this for people who sincerely care. The written Torah text (often called the Tanach, as an acronym of the three sections within it) does not stand on its own. In fact, in the text of the 5 books of Moses there are passages which simply cannot be understood alone. In the prophets, there are sayings, explanations and prophecies which are difficult to parse on their face. Orthodox Judaism believes that along with the written text, Moses was given an oral set of laws and explanations so contextualize the written text.

Students generally start their education by learning the basics of Jewish law and the passages from the 5 books which help establish practice. Other sections are taught in lower grades to help students understand their history and the formative events that set us up as a people. The method of learning of such a difficult text (in the Hebrew, not via a translation) requires that one work with commentaries which explain words, references, phrases, grammar, pronunciation and a variety of meanings. By the time students are in middle school, they learn from the oral law and often, they don't then keep studying the entirety of the written text. They might read it but they don't generally focus on it in depth. They work on the oral law and when it bases itself or a verse, they parse that verse or chapter.

So when a missionary comes up with (a translation of) a verse taken out of context that he is using to prove his theology, an astute Jewish student who has not focused on "anti-missionary strategies" would be best to consult someone who knows more. I see no problem with this. Why should Jewish students waste their time learning anti-missionary tactics instead of learning the formative aspects of everyday Jewish life (which does not include interacting with missionaries)?

Already, in some of the verses I see listed in this thread, I see poor translations and poorer interpretation. This is why we rely on experts, not those who snip a translated verse and decide it must mean something because they need it to mean something.

 

[Sayaras]

Passover 2024: The timeless and timely messages of the Seder - opinion​

By ELIOT PENN Published: APRIL 24, 2024 11:05

Part of the secret of this perseverance is the timeless messages of Passover and their ability to inspire new meaning in each generation.​

Passover 2024: The timeless and timely messages of the Seder - opinion

Part of the secret of this perseverance is the timeless messages of Passover and their ability to inspire new meaning in each generation.

www.jpost.com

 

[Sayaras]

Arab immigrants grandchildren who are now called "Palestinians" have no rights to steal the land of the Jews/Israelites.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Thanks for proving my point, Jews don’t know the Bible at all and instead run to some supposed “expert”, who in turn lies to them by telling them the words in those texts don’t really mean what they say.

Genesis 19:24 shows there are two Yahweh
יהוה rained upon Sodom and Gomorrah sulfurous fire from יהוה out of heaven—

In Judges 6, Gideon is visited by the Angel of the Lord, who is the Lord.

He is also visited by the Spirit of the Lord:
34 The Spirit of the Lord came upon Gideon, and he blew his trumpet, summoning those who were in Abiezer to follow him



But Talmudic Jews ignore or lie about these scriptures and many more found in the Old Testament.

Thanks for proving my point, Jews don’t know the Bible at all and instead run to some supposed “expert”, who in turn lies to them by telling them the words in those texts don’t really mean what they say.

If there are any experts of the Bible in this world, it's the Jewish rabbis. They study the Hebrew Bible in Hebrew, not relying on translations as the vast majority of Christian "Bible - experts" do. Most Christian priests and pastors don't know a lick of Hebrew, yet they want to pretend that they can lecture Jewish rabbis like Tovia Singer about the Jewish Bible. It's Christians like yourself who don't know what the Hebrew Bible actually says. You're the ones who are mistranslating the Hebrew Bible and ripping verses out of context, not the Jewish rabbis. You don't know what you're talking about.

Genesis 19:24 shows there are two Yahweh
יהוה rained upon Sodom and Gomorrah sulfurous fire from יהוה out of heaven—

Hopefully, for your sake, I hope you're really interested in pursuing and accepting the truth, whatever that might be, and have the attention span to thoroughly study the Bible, because if not, your current simplistic understanding of scripture and Hebrew grammar, is going to keep you in your current ignorance.

You have two problems. I will begin with the first one.

Solomon amassed chariots and horsemen. He had 1,400 chariots and 12,000 horsemen, and he stationed them in the chariot cities and with the king [Solomon] at Jerusalem. (2 Chron 1:14)

Following your line of reasoning, there are two kings in Jerusalem. Solomon amassed all of those things, and the other king received them in Jerusalem.

“Then, did Solomon call together the elders of Israel, and all the heads of the tribes, chiefs of the fathers of the sons of Israel, unto King Solomon in Jerusalem.”. (1 Kings 8:1):

The above text says that Solomon called together the leaders of Israel unto King Solomon in Jerusalem. How many Solomons are there in Jerusalem? Two? One Solomon gave the edict or "called", for the leaders to gather with Solomon in Jerusalem. Two Solomons, one called for the meeting, and the other received all of the leaders of Israel. I'm just applying your method of interpreting scripture. Your "hermeneutic".

An individual will often speak of himself in the third person instead of using the first person (i.e. that's called an "Illeism"). Examples of this may be seen in the following: Lamech said, "Hear my voice you wives of Lamech" (Genesis 4:23), not "my voice"; similarly David said, "Take with you the servants of your lord" (1 Kings 1:33), and not "my servants"; and Ahasuerus said, ". . . in the name of the king" (Esther 8:8), not "in my name." They are all referring to themselves in the third person not to another personality. There's only one person there, that is referring to himself in the third person, not two or three.

Amo 4:9-13 I have smitten you with blasting and mildew: when your gardens and your vineyards and your fig trees and your olive trees increased, the palmerworm devoured them: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith YHWH. (10) I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt: your young men have I slain with the sword, and have taken away your horses; and I have made the stink of your camps to come up unto your nostrils: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith YHWH. (11) I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith YHWH. (12) Therefore thus will I do unto thee, O Israel: and because I will do this unto thee, prepare to meet thy God, O Israel. (13) For, lo, he that formeth the mountains, and createth the wind, and declareth unto man what is his thought, that maketh the morning darkness, and treadeth upon the high places of the earth, YHWH, The God of hosts, is his name.

The above passages are full of illeisms. We have One YHWH, One God, speaking of Himself in the third person. He says "I have overthrown some of you, as God/Elohim overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah".... Did YHWH who is speaking in the above verses, overthrow Sodom and Gomora, or was it another God/Elohim?

Deut. 29:23, "...It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboyim, which YHWH overthrew in fierce anger"

Isaiah 13:19, "Babylon, the jewel of kingdoms, the pride and glory of the Babylonians, will be overthrown by God, like Sodom and Gomorrah."

Jeremiah 20:16, "And let that man be as the cities which YHWH overthrew,..."

It's clear that there is only One YHWH and True, Almighty God:

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: YHWH our God is one YHWH:

The Almighty God, is One YHWH, not two or three.

More..not only do we have many illeisms (people referring to themselves in the 3rd person in the Hebrew Bible), but we also have the law of agency, which you are ignoring (or ignorant of).

Gen 19:23-25 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar. (24) Then YHWH rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from YHWH out of heaven; (25) And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

Put your thinking cap on now.....

First, notice how the above verse says "..he overthrew those cities", not "they" (two YHWHs), overthrew those cities. You have to understand the Biblical principle of agency or "Shaliach" in Hebrew:

“Agent (Heb. Shaliah): The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum, “a person’s agent is regarded as the person himself” (Ned. 72B; Kidd, 41b). Therefore any act committed by a duly appointed agent is regarded as having been committed by the principal, who therefore bears full responsibility for it with consequent complete absence of liability on the part of the agent.” (The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion, R.J.Z. Werblowsky, G. Wigoder, 1986, p. 15.)

“Jewish law taught that the man’s agent was as a man himself (backed by his full authority), to the extent that the agent faithfully represented him. Moses and the Old Testament prophets were sometimes viewed as God’s agents.” (The IVP Bible Background Commentary New Testament, Craig S. Keener on John 5:30.)

YHWH is fully invested in His agents, representatives, messengers, prophets, and instruments of contact and interaction, with the physical world. The three angels that appeared to Abraham in Genesis 19, were there representing YHWH, and two of them were sent to Sodom and Gomorah to destroy it. Let's now read your "proof-text" in CONTEXT:

Gen 19:11-15 And they (the two angels) smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door. (12) And the men (the two angels) said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place: (13) For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of YHWH; and YHWH hath sent us to destroy it. (14) And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for YHWH will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons-in-law. (15) And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.


Gen 19:18-25 And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my Lord: (19) Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die: (20) Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live. (21) And he said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken. (22) Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar. (23) The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar. (24) Then YHWH rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from YHWH out of heaven; (25) And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

It's clear, that YHWH who is in heaven, and one person, destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, through the angels he sent. Those angels were acting, functioning, as YHWH. The instruments of YHWH are functioning as YHWH and are often identified as YHWH Himself (They are as one). For example, Moses is God/Elohim to Pharaoh and His brother Aaron:

Exodus 4:16:"He shall speak for thee to the people; and it shall come to pass, that he shall be to thee a mouth, and thou shalt be to him as God."

1. Exodus 4:16:
   
   • Hebrew: "וְאַתָּה תִּהְיֶה־לּוֹ לֵאלֹהִים" (ve'attah tiheyeh-lo lelohim)
   • Translation: "and thou shalt be to him as God"
   • Explanation: In this verse, the term "לֵאלֹהִים" (lelohim) translates as "as God" or "to God." Here, "לֵ" (le) is a preposition typically meaning "to" or "for," indicating the role or function that Moses will serve in relation to Aaron. Moses is placed in a position akin to that of God in how Aaron will relate to him.

Exodus 7:1:"And YHWH said unto Moses: 'See, I have set thee in God's stead to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.'"

1. Exodus 7:1:
   
   • Hebrew: "רְאֵה נְתַתִּיךָ אֱלֹהִים לְפַרְעֹה" (re'eh netatticha elohim lePharaoh)
   • Translation: "See, I have made you God to Pharaoh"
   • Explanation: Here, the term "אֱלֹהִים לְפַרְעֹה" (elohim lePharaoh) translates as "God to Pharaoh." Again, "לְ" (le) is used, meaning "to" or "for," indicating Moses' god-like status in his interactions with Pharaoh. This sets up Moses as a divine figure or authority to whom Pharaoh must respond.

Are you getting it now? The angels sent to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, on behalf of YHWH, were functioning as YHWH. When they act on behalf of YHWH, it's as if they are YHWH. This is not to be understood literally, because the angels aren't co-equal with YHWH, ontologically, only functionally, when they are functioning on behalf of YHWH. YHWH can be in heaven and here on Earth through His angels, manifesting his glory and power. When those angels destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, they did it with YHWH's power invested in them.

The rod and hand of YHWH, is the hand of Moses:

Exo 7:17 Thus saith YHWH, In this thou shalt know that I am YHWH: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood.

Whose hand? YHWH's hand is grasping the rod. Who's performing miracles? YHWH:

Num_14:22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;

Exo_10:2 And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I am YHWH.

Jos_24:17 For YHWH our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:


According to the above verses, who performed the miracles? Who is the cause and source of that miraculous power? YHWH, in heaven. Nonetheless, the angels, Moses, and Aaron, also performed the same miracles. How? They are agents, "shaliach", of YHWH. They are acting, and functioning, on behalf of YHWH. Moses is like YHWH to Pharaoh and his brother. He was functioning, and acting on behalf of, YHWH. He was the hand of YHWH here on Earth.

Psa 78:42-49 They remembered not his hand, nor the day when he delivered them from the enemy. (43) How he had wrought his signs in Egypt, and his wonders in the field of Zoan: (44) And had turned their rivers into blood; and their floods, that they could not drink. (45) He sent divers sorts of flies among them, which devoured them; and frogs, which destroyed them. (46) He gave also their increase unto the caterpiller, and their labour unto the locust. (47) He destroyed their vines with hail, and their sycomore trees with frost. (48) He gave up their cattle also to the hail, and their flocks to hot thunderbolts. (49) He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.


....sending evil angels (angels of destruction) among them.

YHWH did all of the above, performing all of those miracles, THROUGH His agents. Angels of destruction/evil angels. This is the "hand" of YHWH. YHWH Tzabaoth = YHWH of Armies/Hosts/Angels. He employs angels/agents. YHWH says to Moses:

Exo_4:17 And thou shalt take this rod in thine hand, wherewith thou shalt do signs.

Exo_7:19 And YHWH spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone.

Exo_8:5 And YHWH spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Stretch forth thine hand with thy rod over the streams, over the rivers, and over the ponds, and cause frogs to come up upon the land of Egypt.

Whose hand is it? Is it YHWH's hand, grasping the rod over the waters, performing miracles? Is it Moses' hand? Is it Aaron's hand? Whose hand? The answer is, it's all YHWH's hand. The hand of the angels of destruction, the hand of Moses, the hand of Aaron, are all YHWH's hand. YHWH is doing the work, through the hand of His angels and human agents. So, when you say that YHWH is in heaven and also here on Earth destroying Sodom and Gomorrah, that doesn't imply that there are two YHWHs. Only a person ignorant of the law of agency could fall into the error, thinking that there is more than one YHWH. YHWH is ontologically one, not two or three.

In Judges 6, Gideon is visited by the Angel of the Lord, who is the Lord.

He is also visited by the Spirit of the Lord:
34 The Spirit of the Lord came upon Gideon, and he blew his trumpet, summoning those who were in Abiezer to follow him

The angel of YHWH, is YHWH only functionally, not ontologically. He is acting on behalf of YHWH in heaven, hence He is sometimes identified with YHWH. That doesn't make Him a second YHWH. He is the mouthpiece and hand of YHWH in heaven, hence sometimes he speaks in the first person for YHWH and his actions are synonymous with the actions of YHWH. It's that simple.

But Talmudic Jews ignore or lie about these scriptures and many more found in the Old Testament.

You're just ignorant. You need to repent and begin learning TeNaK from the Jewish rabbis. Turn to the Jewish authorities, scholars, and sages for instruction, otherwise, you're lost. I was lost too, as a Christian and I didn't acquire real knowledge of YHWH until I started studying Judaism and the rabbis. Until I did that, I was like you, completely ignorant of YHWH. Become a Noahide, find a community near you.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/62221/jewish/The-7-Noahide-Laws-Universal-Morality.htm

The Seven Laws of Noah. Those are the laws of our covenant with YHWH. The Jewish people have their covenant and mission and we have ours. We keep the seven laws. Reject all idolatry and follow the instructions of the rabbies, that you may be blessed and have a place in the World To Come.

 

[theHawk]

Are you getting it now? The angels sent to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, on behalf of YHWH, were functioning as YHWH. When they act on behalf of YHWH, it's as if they are YHWH.

Wrong. Mere angels never say that they are YHWH. When they are mistaken as the Lord, they always correct the person. But in the case of the Angel/messenger of God in these particular cases, he is considered YHWH and is addressed as such.

Does a mere angel have the power to forgive sins? Nope. Only God does.

 

[theHawk]

If there are any experts of the Bible in this world, it's the Jewish rabbis. They study the Hebrew Bible in Hebrew, not relying on translations as the vast majority of Christian "Bible - experts" do. Most Christian priests and pastors don't know a lick of Hebrew, yet they want to pretend that they can lecture Jewish rabbis like Tovia Singer about the Jewish Bible. It's Christians like yourself who don't know what the Hebrew Bible actually says. You're the ones who are mistranslating the Hebrew Bible and ripping verses out of context, not the Jewish rabbis. You don't know what you're talking about.

Lame argument, to claim the Bible (OT) is mistranslated from Hebrew.

Most Jews 2000 years ago were using the Greek Septuagint and that was considered the standard and accurately translated.

Translations are not the issue, Talmudic Judaism (which is newer than Christianity) just does not accept the beliefs of ancient Israelites.


As we’ve seen in many threads here, Talmudic Jews claim the Messiah will be a mere man, and not divine. Yet they can’t point to any text to back up this claim.

 

[theHawk]

The angel of YHWH, is YHWH only functionally, not ontologically. He is acting on behalf of YHWH in heaven, hence He is sometimes identified with YHWH. That doesn't make Him a second YHWH. He is the mouthpiece and hand of YHWH in heaven, hence sometimes he speaks in the first person for YHWH and his actions are synonymous with the actions of YHWH. It's that simple

What proof do you have of this?

I could care less what your opinion is or the opinion of some Rabbi. Show proof from the Tanakh texts.

 

[TruthNotBS]

What proof do you have of this?

I could care less what your opinion is or the opinion of some Rabbi. Show proof from the Tanakh texts.

I already did, but you're pretending I didn't.

 

[irosie91]

Several of the self-proclaimed Jews and even Rabbis here on this board have claimed they do study the Tanakh. Theyhave made claims they don’t revere the Talmud more.


Jews in the streets of Israel are confronted with passages from the Old Testament, and you can plainly see they have no real answers. “I must consult my Rabbi.” Apparently actually reading the text from the Tanakh can easily be “misinterpreted“. In other words don’t believe your eyes, but instead listen to some Talmudic rabbi.

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^^ the above man in the video admits they do NOT teach the Tanakh, only the Talmud.

want to laugh your ass off?----try bible questions aimed at christians. Even your divinity students and clergy screw it up---uhm---make that OT but even MORE SO- NT

 

[TruthNotBS]

Wrong. Mere angels never say that they are YHWH. When they are mistaken as the Lord, they always correct the person. But in the case of the Angel/messenger of God in these particular cases, he is considered YHWH and is addressed as such.

Does a mere angel have the power to forgive sins? Nope. Only God does.

The angel doesn't forgive anyone's sins, but he could if God gave him permission and authority to do that.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Lame argument, to claim the Bible (OT) is mistranslated from Hebrew.

Most Jews 2000 years ago were using the Greek Septuagint and that was considered the standard and accurately translated.

Translations are not the issue, Talmudic Judaism (which is newer than Christianity) just does not accept the beliefs of ancient Israelites.


As we’ve seen in many threads here, Talmudic Jews claim the Messiah will be a mere man, and not divine. Yet they can’t point to any text to back up this claim.

You're spewing gobbledygook.