Dems at it again

[DiamondDave]

I am one of the ones who think social security should not exist. Does that make me an evil person?

Regulation of the cost of health insurance is an entirely different subject (for me anyway) than the issue of providing free health care for all.

Exactly... regulation is one thing.... providing healthcare is something completely different and something the government was never intended to do

 

[CSM]

No, I really do believe it. You're taking my money to give a benefit to someone else. It's actually more of a social program than social security is, IMO. At least there I have a snowball's chance of getting some of my own money back.

I find it interesting that you do not perceive pay and benefits for military personnel as a good return on investment.

Also, you want to take MY money and give a benefit to someone else (in this case, health care) who has done absolutely NOTHING to earn it! Does that not seem somewhat hypocritical?

 

[DiamondDave]

See, they're trying to reframe the debate. We AREN'T TALKING ABOUT WELFARE. We're talking about an industrialized nation having people go bankrupt because they have no health insurance.

This isn't about welfare. And with more and more businesses being unwilling to give health coverage, this is going to become an even bigger issue.

Just remember, these are the same people who think Social Security is welfare and think it shouldn't exist.

And the beauty of a free society is that if you want healthcare provided by an employer, and they don't provide it where you are currently working... you have the choice to leave and work for a place that does compensate as you want to be compensated... you just better be prepared to do for yourself what it takes to demand that benefit.... it is your responsibility to gain the ability to provide the service that demands the compensation... big business is willing to pay what it takes to gain the resources they need to compete and succeed while making a profit... you make yourself a wanted commodity rather than a burger flipper, and you generally do just fine

your personal responsibility to take care of yourself and your family is not on my shoulders, nor on the shoulders of others in this nation.... hence why it is a personal responsibility... you are the only one responsible for you

 

[jreeves]

See, they're trying to reframe the debate. We AREN'T TALKING ABOUT WELFARE. We're talking about an industrialized nation having people go bankrupt because they have no health insurance.

This isn't about welfare. And with more and more businesses being unwilling to give health coverage, this is going to become an even bigger issue.

Just remember, these are the same people who think Social Security is welfare and think it shouldn't exist.

I'm trying to reframe the debate? I guess that Ravi believes Social Security is welfare, since Ravi brought up welfare huh?

 

[CSM]

I don't think anyone's talking about government doctors meeting people's health care needs.

My understanding is we're talking about COVERAGE.

And no, it doesn't make you evil.... it just makes you wrong, to my mind, anyway.

Well gee wiz, I thought we were talking about the government paying for individual health care (provided by a government doctor or otherwise).

just os ya know, I would rather be wrong than broke. Broke is what I will be if idealists insist on taking my money to pay for benefits for others who contribute nothing to society in return (welfare recipients come to mind, especially those who choose to make it a career.)

 

[Foxfyre]

I'm trying to reframe the debate? I guess that Ravi believes Social Security is welfare, since Ravi brought up welfare huh?

Social Security is indeed welfare when a person has not paid into the system what is being paid out to him.

 

[Ravi]

Lmao....

So thats what welfare was intended to do, stimulate the economy?

Pretty much.

What by spending money the government has to borrow from China among others?

No, that would be pay for the idiocy of invading Iraq.

 

[Ravi]

I find it interesting that you do not perceive pay and benefits for military personnel as a good return on investment.

Also, you want to take MY money and give a benefit to someone else (in this case, health care) who has done absolutely NOTHING to earn it! Does that not seem somewhat hypocritical?

I do think it's a good thing to pay for benefits for the military. I thought I'd stated that a few times up the thread.

I also stated that I haven't decided on health care.

Social programs aren't evil.

 

[DiamondDave]

Social programs aren't evil.

Nor are they something that the government was ever supposed to be responsible for....

Voluntary social programs run by charities and given freely to by those who WISH to donate.... that is all well and good.... I support many charities that way.... but your personal responsibilities for taking care of yourself, providing for yourself, etc is not on my shoulders or the shoulders of other individuals in this country (or the responsibility of the government)

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I don't think anyone's talking about government doctors meeting people's health care needs.

My understanding is we're talking about COVERAGE.

And no, it doesn't make you evil.... it just makes you wrong, to my mind, anyway.

And yet the Democrats are trying to force all Medicare patients to ONLY use Doctors the Government selects. Please do us all a favor and actually read shit before you spew out uninformed opinion.

 

[Ravi]

Nor are they something that the government was ever supposed to be responsible for....

Sure? Under the general welfare clause it is covered. There's nothing in the constitution about health care for military retirees either.

 

[DiamondDave]

Sure? Under the general welfare clause it is covered. There's nothing in the constitution about health care for military retirees either.

Uhhh... maybe you should actually understand that promoting GENERAL WELFARE is not providing PERSONAL WELFARE.... I would suggest a little understanding of what was meant

The Constitutional Dictionary - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

 

[Ravi]

Uhhh... maybe you should actually understand that promoting GENERAL WELFARE is not providing PERSONAL WELFARE.... I would suggest a little understanding of what was meant

The Constitutional Dictionary - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

It means basically the the government can enact laws that provide for the general welfare of the populace.

I suggest you do a little reading.

 

[DiamondDave]

And general welfare (such as national defense... enforcing and creating of laws... funding the government to run.... etc).... is not taking over the personal responsibilities of individuals in their own lives

absolutely un-freaking-believable


Amazing how libs have no want for or comprehension of the difference between general welfare and personal responsibility

 

[Ravi]

And general welfare (such as national defense... enforcing and creating of laws... funding the government to run.... etc).... is not taking over the personal responsibilities of individuals in their own lives

absolutely un-freaking-believable


Amazing how libs have no want for or comprehension of the difference between general welfare and personal responsibility

Tell you what. Prove to me that taxing people is illegal and we'll continue the discussion.

Keep in mind that the economy of the country is just as vital to its thriving as national defense is.

 

[editec]

See, they're trying to reframe the debate. We AREN'T TALKING ABOUT WELFARE. We're talking about an industrialized nation having people go bankrupt because they have no health insurance.
.

That's cause they got no game and they know it.

What I'm finding amusing is watching libertarians trying to differentitate military medince from socialized medicine, or for that matter, trying to explain why the military isn't a form of socialism.


A government TAKES TAXES from people. Uses those taxes for the military and that's not another example of socialism how, exactly?

No wonder they want to change the subject.

They want the socialism they want, and that they call okay.

The socialism they don't like they damn.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

That's cause they got no game and they know it.

What I'm finding amusing is watching libertarians trying to differentitate military medince from socialized medicine, or for that matter, trying to explain why the military isn't a form of socialism.


A government TAKES TAXES from people. Uses those taxes for the military and that's not another example of socialism how, exactly?

No wonder they want to change the subject.

They want the socialism they want, and that they call okay.

The socialism they don't like they damn.

Look Ma, another fucking Moron. The Government HIRES people and makes Contracts with them you stupid shit. Military retirees EARNED the retirement by preforming a job as set forth in a Contract that once fulfilled allows them retirement. Using your logic cops, fireman, Park Rangers, everyone employed by the Government should never get a package that allows for retirement, HELL it is socialism just to pay them for working for the Government using your ignorant opinion.

 

[jreeves]

That's cause they got no game and they know it.

What I'm finding amusing is watching libertarians trying to differentitate military medince from socialized medicine, or for that matter, trying to explain why the military isn't a form of socialism.


A government TAKES TAXES from people. Uses those taxes for the military and that's not another example of socialism how, exactly?

No wonder they want to change the subject.

They want the socialism they want, and that they call okay.

The socialism they don't like they damn.

Did you read the rest of the thread or are you just responding to Jillian completely clueless as to what was said earlier? The military provides a service to taxpayers, part of the compensation for services rendered is a retirement package.

 

[DiamondDave]

Main Entry:
so·cial·ism Listen to the pronunciation of socialism
Pronunciation:
\ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\
Function:
noun
Date:
1837

1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

 

[Ravi]

Social program - a detailed outline of state activity which follows and implements a specific social welfare policy. A social program outlines the funds to be spent and the purposes for which they will be spent.

Just like a lot of those New Deal programs FDR implemented.