Christians look to form new nation in U.S.

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by ajwps
I take it that you are not a George Bush fan.....

What is the difference between a Nationalized Health Insurance program in which only the politicians get execellent health care and everybody else gets what those same politicians decide is affordable or good for them or permitting doctors to legally kill terminal people instead of the current unspoken approval of government, and with the family's consent allow their doctor to over medicate dying patients? (same effect)

There was an American on vacation in Mexico who when coming back to his home forgot his wallet. The border guard would not let him pass back to the US because he had no ID.

The American said to the guard, "I have proof that I am an American." The guard asked him to produce the proof.

The man dropped his pants and underwear, bent over and there for all to see was a tatoo of George Bush on his right buttock and Dick Cheney tatooed on his left buttock.

The guard said, okay you are American, go back to your home in Massachusetts. The man said, "how did you know that I was from Massachusetts?"

The border guard said, "I recognized the picture of John Kerry right in the middle of your butt."

Ask anyone who is a healthcare provider...nurses, techs, family physicians...They'll tell you what a travesty the American healthcare system truly is.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit

Ask anyone who is a healthcare provider...nurses, techs, family physicians...They'll tell you what a travesty the American healthcare system truly is.

Funny you should mention that for I am a physician and do know exactly what I am talking about.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by ajwps
Funny you should mention that for I am a physician and do know exactly what I am talking about.

On which topic?

I haven't seen that a whole lot.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by ajwps
Actually there was serious research about the life and times of Jesus Christ while on earth. This non-fiction book explains quite a great deal about the mysteries surrounding Jesus and his family.

The name of that book is "Holy Blood Holy Grail."

http://www.bookfinder.us/review4/0440136482.html

Maybe if you read scripture and let the Bible prove its self, (including the divinity of Christ) you wouldn't have to look to outside sources.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by NewGuy

Maybe if you read scripture and let the Bible prove its self, (including the divinity of Christ) you wouldn't have to look to outside sources.

Actually I have read the New Testament and found it to be a fiction book and a poor one at that. I find it more informative and a learning experience to find out what really happened to Jesus after he was revived from the cross and taken to France by the Knights Templar.

Jesus has a lot of great, great, great granchildren living in France. How would you like them to bless you and forgive you of your evil sins that you repeat every time you get cleansed in Jesus shed blood.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by ajwps
Funny you should mention that for I am a physician and do know exactly what I am talking about.

As an RN, I've lost count of the number of times people have come into the ER in CHF because the couldn't even afford their freakin' Lasix...You think th US healthcare system works...Well have at it.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit

As an RN, I've lost count of the number of times people have come into the ER in CHF because the couldn't even afford their freakin' Lasix...You think th US healthcare system works...Well have at it.

Are you a 'male nurse?' If you think the US healthcare system is terrible, you might want to think about who runs it?

The insurance industry decides who gets healthcare, medication and ultimately decides to deny or delay the delivery of healthcare which results in death and a savings for the insurance CEOs.

Why do you think that the insurance industry has this power and money incintive? Do you think it has anything to do with paying for legistlation to be passed for their benefit instead of the health care of not only the poor but those who supposedly have health insurance?

But after saying that, why is it that people from around the world chooses to come to the USA for their healthcare instead of getting it for free in their own nationalized health care system?

For the most part, physicians and health care providers in the US have to jump through hoops for permission to give even the most basic level of healthcare delivery.

IMHO the future of healthcare delivery in this country will be for two classes of individuals. Those who can afford to pay for their healthcare and those who can't and will get a death sentence. The healthcare system in the US cannot continue to pay out of their own pockets forever so that people can have proper care.

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by ajwps
Actually I have read the New Testament and found it to be a fiction book and a poor one at that. I find it more informative and a learning experience to find out what really happened to Jesus after he was revived from the cross and taken to France by the Knights Templar.

Jesus has a lot of great, great, great granchildren living in France. How would you like them to bless you and forgive you of your evil sins that you repeat every time you get cleansed in Jesus shed blood. [/B]

This is so laughable that I can't actually believe that you believe it.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by ajwps

Originally posted by NewGuy

Maybe if you read scripture and let the Bible prove its self, (including the divinity of Christ) you wouldn't have to look to outside sources.

Actually I have read the New Testament and found it to be a fiction book and a poor one at that. I find it more informative and a learning experience to find out what really happened to Jesus after he was revived from the cross and taken to France by the Knights Templar.

Jesus has a lot of great, great, great granchildren living in France. How would you like them to bless you and forgive you of your evil sins that you repeat every time you get cleansed in Jesus shed blood.

As a physician you would think you had half a clue about what happens to the body when it is crucified.

Reviving would be impossible.

You have just discredited your Biblical "knowledge", not to mention your medical knowledge.

 

[dmp]

Originally posted by NewGuy
As a physician you would think you had half a clue about what happens to the body when it is crucified.

Reviving would be impossible.

You have just discredited your Biblical "knowledge", not to mention your medical knowledge.

Since the New Testiment is pure fiction, Christ was never crusified anyway...moot point.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by NewGuy

As a physician you would think you had half a clue about what happens to the body when it is crucified. Reviving would be impossible. You have just discredited your Biblical "knowledge", not to mention your medical knowledge.

You have made certain statements concernng the physiological process of crucifixion which outlines exactly the events causing the victim's death and the time necessary for death to ensue.

The following is a description of the medical effects of this prolonged torture and the usual DEATH time of 2 - 4 days and as long as 9 days. Jesus was up on the cross for 3 hours. Not nearly enough time for him to expire even with a shallow sword point wound to the thorax. JESUS SURVIVED.... Believe it or not.

http://www.art-with-attitude.com/village/cruc_glad.html

Crucifixion

The procedure of crucifixion may be summarized as follows: the patibulum (cross beam) was put on the ground and the victim laid upon it. Nails, about 7 inches long and with a diameter of 1 cm (roughly 3/8 of an inch) were driven in the wrists. The points would go into the vicinity of the median nerve, causing shocks of pain to radiate through the arms. It was possible to place the nails between the bones so that no fractures (or broken bones) occurred. Studies have shown that nails were probably driven through the small bones of the wrists, since nails in the palms of the hand would not support the weight of a body. In ancient terminology, the wrist was considered to be part of the hand (Davis). Standing at the crucifixion sites would be upright posts, called stipes, standing about 7 feet high (Edwards). In the center of the sripes was a crude seat, called a sedile or sedulum, which served as support for the victim.

The patibulum was then lifted onto the stipes. The feet were then nailed to the stipes. To allow for this, the knees had to be bent and rotated laterally, being left in a very uncomfortable position. The spikes were driven through the ankles on either side of the cross.

When the cross was erected upright, there was tremendous strain put on the wrists, arms and shoulders, resulting in a dislocation of the shoulder and elbow joints (Metherall). The arms, being held up and outward, held the rib cage in a fixed end inspiratory position which made it extremely difficult to exhale, and impossible to take a full breath. The victim would only be able to take very shallow breaths. As time passed, the muscles, from the loss of blood, lost of oxygen and the fixed position of the body, would undergo severe cramps and spasmodic contractions.

Suffocation by Crucifixion

1. Shallowness of breathing causes small areas of lung collapse.

2. Decreased oxygen and increased carbon dioxide causes acidic conditions in the tissues.

3. Fluid builds up in the lungs. Makes situation in step 2 worse.

4. Heart is stressed and eventually fails.

The slow process of suffering and resulting death during a crucifixion may be summarized as follows:

"...it appears likely that the mechanism of death in crucifixion was suffocation. The chain of events which ultimately led to suffocation are as follows: with the weight of the body being supported by the sedulum, the arms were pulled upward. This caused the intercostal and pectoral muscles to be stretched. Furthermore, movement of these muscles was opposed by the weight of the body. With the muscles of respiration thus stretched, the respiratory bellows became relatively fixed. As dyspenea developed and pain in the wrists and arms increased, the victim was forced to raise the body off the sedulum, thereby transferring the weight of the body to the feet. Respirations became easier, but with the weight of the body being exerted on the feet, pain in the feet and legs mounted. When the pain became unbearable, the victim again slumped down on the sedulum with the weight of the body pulling on the wrists and again stretching the intercostal muscles. Thus, the victim alternated between lifting his body off the sedulum in order to breathe and slumping down on the sedulum to relieve pain in the feet. Eventually, he became exhausted or lasped into unconsciousness so that he could no longer lift his body off the sedulum. In this position, with the respratory muscles essentially paralyzed, the victim suffocated and died.” (DePasquale and Burch)

The average time of suffering before death by crucifixion is stated to be about 2-4 days (Tenney), although there are reported cases where the victims lived for 9 days (Lipsius). The actual causes of death by crucifixion were multifactorial, one of the most significant would have been the severity of the scourging beforehand. (Edwards).

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by ajwps
You have made certain statements concernng the physiological process of crucifixion which outlines exactly the events causing the victim's death and the time necessary for death to ensue.

The following is a description of the medical effects of this prolonged torture and the usual DEATH time of 2 - 4 days and as long as 9 days. Jesus was up on the cross for 3 hours. Not nearly enough time for him to expire even with a shallow sword point wound to the thorax. JESUS SURVIVED.... Believe it or not.

http://www.art-with-attitude.com/village/cruc_glad.html

Now lets take the crucifixion in combination with the events:

The soldiers beat Jesus before leading him away to be crucified. The accusation against him would have been written out and tied around his neck while he was carrying his cross to the place of crucifixion. This would let everyone know the crime for which he was being executed. The accusation was then be nailed above the cross. His crime was published in three languages. It read: This is Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews.

According to the New Testament Jesus was on the cross for about six hours. When the soldiers came to break his legs to hasten his death they found that he had already died.

So you can figure out what a crucifixion by ITS SELF does, WHOOPIE.

How do the French raise the dead again?

 

[5stringJeff]

Not to mention that Jesus was beaten so badly that he couldn't even carry his crossbeam. A man in this frail condition would not survive for 2 days. Now pile on the emotional stress of betrayal and abandonment, and it's no surprise that Jesus was dead in six hours (not three, as you claimed, aj).

 

[dmp]

Originally posted by gop_jeff
Not to mention that Jesus was beaten so badly that he couldn't even carry his crossbeam. A man in this frail condition would not survive for 2 days. Now pile on the emotional stress of betrayal and abandonment, and it's no surprise that Jesus was dead in six hours (not three, as you claimed, aj).

Still not mentioning that these Romans were experts in their field. They would not 'fail' to make sure a prisoner was dead.

Even STILL not mentioning that those close to Jesus died for their belief in the events surrounding his death and ressurection - would YOU die for something you knew was a lie?

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by NewGuy

Now lets take the crucifixion in combination with the events:
The soldiers beat Jesus before leading him away to be crucified. The accusation against him would have been written out and tied around his neck while he was carrying his cross to the place of crucifixion. This would let everyone know the crime for which he was being executed. The accusation was then be nailed above the cross. His crime was published in three languages. It read: This is Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews. According to the New Testament Jesus was on the cross for about six hours. When the soldiers came to break his legs to hasten his death they found that he had already died. So you can figure out what a crucifixion by ITS SELF does, WHOOPIE. How do the French raise the dead again?

Now you are aware of the physiological and medical aspects of crucifixion and for which you accused me of having no knowledge.

If Jesus carried a sign around his neck, had Roman accusations nailed above his head on the cross in three or more languages nor was scurged to death; nothing changed the real crucifixion time as everyone of the thousands that were crucified by the Romans all were given the same treatment. Who pronounced Jesus dead so that none of his bones were broken which would have sped the end of his life?

Sorry but Jesus was crucified from about midday (noon) to about 4 in the afternoon. Somewhere around three to four hours. Not enough time to die unless someone slipped him a sedative on a pole to his mouth giving him the apperance of death.

Whoopie????

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by gop_jeff

Not to mention that Jesus was beaten so badly that he couldn't even carry his crossbeam. A man in this frail condition would not survive for 2 days. Now pile on the emotional stress of betrayal and abandonment, and it's no surprise that Jesus was dead in six hours (not three, as you claimed, aj).

How badly was every Jew of the thousands upon thousands that the Romans crucified also in frail condition, scurged and under emotional distress. It still took 2 to 4 days not 3 to 4 hours. Even according to the Mel Gibson Version of the New Testament.

Proof of time Jesus was on the cross as per New Testaments gospels version. Most of the Gospel versions are at variance with these few hours. See the following:

http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/Crucifixion_Hour.htm

At least six Bible versions report that John's hektos hora means "noon":

1. It was then about the sixth hour (about noon). (Amplified Bible)
2. Jesus, tired from the long walk, sat wearily beside the well about noontime. (New Living Testament)
3. It was noon (Contemporary English Version)
4. It was about midday. (Worldwide English New Testament)
5. It was about noon. (New English Translation)
6. It was about noon. (New American Bible)

Not one translator of any of twelve other Bible versions translates hektos hora as "sunrise" in the Jacob's well passage.

Then taken down from the cross and presumed dead.

Six other translators of six different Bible versions listed below support the view of the translator above, and translate dekatos hora as "four o'clock in the afternoon."



1. It was late afternoon when this happened. (The Message)
2. It was then about the tenth hour (about four o'clock in the afternoon). (Amplified Bible)
3. It was about four o'clock in the afternoon (New Living Translation)
4. It was four o'clock in the afternoon (New American Bible)
5. The time was about four o'clock in the afternoon. (Worldwide English)
6. Now it was about four o’clock in the afternoon. (New English Translation)

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by ajwps
If Jesus carried a sign around his neck, had Roman accusations nailed above his head on the cross in three or more languages nor was scurged to death; nothing changed the real crucifixion time as everyone of the thousands that were crucified by the Romans all were given the same treatment. Who pronounced Jesus dead so that none of his bones were broken which would have sped the end of his life?

Sorry but Jesus was crucified from about midday (noon) to about 4 in the afternoon. Somewhere around three to four hours. Not enough time to die unless someone slipped him a sedative on a pole to his mouth giving him the apperance of death.

Whoopie????

Do you realize you didn't even adress my evidence?

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by -=d=-

Still not mentioning that these Romans were experts in their field. They would not 'fail' to make sure a prisoner was dead.

If Jesus was drugged while on the cross (wine or vinegar or sedative known to be available at that time) could fool a doctor today. No there was no way to test Jesus brainwaves or heart beat by the expert Romans. The Roman executioners simply saw thousands of dead Jews who had their eyes closed and did not appear to have life in them. To them they were all dead and no one would find it necessary to check on one more 'dead' Jew.


Even STILL not mentioning that those close to Jesus died for their belief in the events surrounding his death and ressurection - would YOU die for something you knew was a lie?

I would not die willingly for either a wounded god-man or a pretender to divinity. Not one of those close to Jesus had any certified or signed paper declaring Jesus a god or even a Rabbi.

Those disciples around Jesus simply went back to their usual work activities as Jesus was now supposedly dead and they were either simpletons or discouraged that Jesus did not bring on the Messianic prophecies to bring down Rome's domination over the Jewish people.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by NewGuy

Do you realize you didn't even adress my evidence?

Sorry but didn't note any evidence you produced about anything except the words of the gospel writers over the centuries after the supposed death of Jesus Christ.

Produce real evidence such as archeological cross Jesus nail to, a shroud with an image of a crucified GUY, a rusty nail or even a one of Jesus' sandles with his initals engraved in the bottom tire tread sole.

What evidence?????

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by ajwps
How badly was every Jew of the thousands upon thousands that the Romans crucified also in frail condition, scurged and under emotional distress. It still took 2 to 4 days not 3 to 4 hours. Even according to the Mel Gibson Version of the New Testament.

Gibson followed catholocism and used a book by a crazy mystic for his movie. It would figure you claim him as a source of evidence.

Proof of time Jesus was on the cross as per New Testaments gospels version. Most of the Gospel versions are at variance with these few hours. See the following:

http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/Crucifixion_Hour.htm

See a website instead of scripture? Nice.

At least six Bible versions report that John's hektos hora means "noon":

1. It was then about the sixth hour (about noon). (Amplified Bible)
2. Jesus, tired from the long walk, sat wearily beside the well about noontime. (New Living Testament)
3. It was noon (Contemporary English Version)
4. It was about midday. (Worldwide English New Testament)
5. It was about noon. (New English Translation)
6. It was about noon. (New American Bible)

Not one translator of any of twelve other Bible versions translates hektos hora as "sunrise" in the Jacob's well passage.

Since when do "all" versions determine reliability? These were taken from edited text that was VOTED upon before inclusion into circulation.

Mark 15: 24 And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.
25 And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.

33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
35 And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias.
36 And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down.
37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.


That is 6 hours.

Then taken down from the cross and presumed dead.

Six other translators of six different Bible versions listed below support the view of the translator above, and translate dekatos hora as "four o'clock in the afternoon."

1. It was late afternoon when this happened. (The Message)
2. It was then about the tenth hour (about four o'clock in the afternoon). (Amplified Bible)
3. It was about four o'clock in the afternoon (New Living Translation)
4. It was four o'clock in the afternoon (New American Bible)
5. The time was about four o'clock in the afternoon. (Worldwide English)
6. Now it was about four o’clock in the afternoon. (New English Translation)

They are WRONG.