Christians look to form new nation in U.S.

[dmp]

Originally posted by ajwps
Oh I think that Jesus has a lot more to worry about than me as he is having his own troubles explaining to the Father why he is worshipped as a new god. Christs rear is in the fire as we speak.

wow.

Unforgivable...if that's not blasphemy I dunno.

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by ajwps
.......And Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed His last.

When our patient's are on the operating room table and they get the Pentathol, they begin to get sleepy and then THEY BREATH THEIR LAST BREATH. But low they are not dead, just sedated and the anesthesiologist pushes air down their windpipes and they arise as from the dead.

That's great. Really proud of you. But Jesus was not on an operating table, he didn't have any Pentathol, and he was buried in a guarded tomb for a day and a half before He started breathing again. There's no way to deny Jesus's death - and if you look at the evidence honestly, there is no way to deny His resurrection either.

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by ajwps
Oh I think that Jesus has a lot more to worry about than me as he is having his own troubles explaining to the Father why he is worshipped as a new god. Christs rear is in the fire as we speak. [/B]

Actually, if you read on in the Gospels, you'd find that God has given all powers of judgment to Jesus Christ - meaning that God finds enough favor in Him to trust Him to judge correctly. Pretty big amount of trust for someone you claim is "in the fire as we speak."

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by -=d=-
wow.

Unforgivable...if that's not blasphemy I dunno.

Don't worry, the truth will set you free.

These words were written hundreds of year before Christ was born of the egg of Mary.....

Isaiah 45

20"Assemble yourselves and come;
Draw near together,
You who have escaped from the nations.
They have no knowledge,
Who carry the wood of their carved image,
And pray to a god that cannot save.
21Tell and bring forth your case;
Yes, let them take counsel together.
Who has declared this from ancient time?
Who has told it from that time?
Have not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A just G-d;
There is none besides Me.

Christ is the blasphemy in this prophecy......

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by gop_jeff

Actually, if you read on in the Gospels, you'd find that God has given all powers of judgment to Jesus Christ - meaning that God finds enough favor in Him to trust Him to judge correctly. Pretty big amount of trust for someone you claim is "in the fire as we speak."

I have read the Gospels and found them spoken of by the prophet Isaiah.

Isaiah 45

20"Assemble yourselves and come;
Draw near together,
You who have escaped from the nations.
They have no knowledge,
Who carry the wood of their carved image,
And pray to a god that cannot save.
21Tell and bring forth your case;
Yes, let them take counsel together.
Who has declared this from ancient time?
Who has told it from that time?
Have not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A just God;
There is none besides Me.

 

[dmp]

Originally posted by ajwps
Christ is the blasphemy in this prophecy......

Not even CLOSE. Because the item he mentioned was made of wood? that's the ONLY relation.

 

[5stringJeff]

Let's talk about Isaiah, and see what that prophet said about the Messiah:

Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Matthew 26:36-38: "Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, "Sit here while I go over there and pray." He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. [b/]Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me."

Matthew 16 "From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. "


4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

John 19:33-37: "But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken," and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."

Romans 5:1: "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

1 Peter 2:24: "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. "

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

Hebrews 7:26-28: "Such a high priest meets our need--one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever. "


7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

Luke 23:8-11: "When Herod saw Jesus, he was greatly pleased, because for a long time he had been wanting to see him. From what he had heard about him, he hoped to see him perform some miracle. He plied him with many questions, but Jesus gave him no answer. The chief priests and the teachers of the law were standing there, vehemently accusing him. Then Herod and his soldiers ridiculed and mocked him. Dressing him in an elegant robe, they sent him back to Pilate."

8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Hebrews 4:15: "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin."

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

Romans 8:2-4: "{T}hrough Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering."

Revelation 1:17-18: "When I saw him (Jesus), I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!"

11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

Hebrews 7:23-25: "Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them."

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by -=d=-

Not even CLOSE. Because the item he mentioned was made of wood? that's the ONLY relation.

Not even close =d=,

Isaiah prophesied approximately fifty years from (ca.
739-690 B.C. In other words this Old Testament prophet somehow was given the foresight and knowledge of the coming of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. How could he have known or guessed that some nations of the world, those who have no knowledge of the One G-d would carry a wooden symbol of their god of an image carved in a piece of wood, a god who could not save anyone. Further the prophet Isaiah said that they should take counsel together (the United Nations) which was foretold hundreds of years before Christ was born or heard about. Then Isaih had the audacity to declare that there is only One G-d and that there is no other gods beside Him.

Maybe all these prophecies were simply conincidental and had no relationship to any future events.

Guess again for this is not the only prophecy of this foreign god who would come to replace the only One.

 

[freeandfun1]

The point is that some Christians will lose sight of who God really is. Frankly, I don't think Jesus would look approvingly of Christians that worship the Crucifix as it is God himself. That is the point AJ. The point is that God is the only one that can save you. Not the Crucifix, not Mary, nothing bud God himself. So the wooden image could not save them. Not even what the wooden image represents. By worshiping the wooden image, they lose site of the ONE, the ONLY God which was represented by Christ in the Flesh.So don't worship Jeuse the Man, but learn from Him the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The ONE GOD.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by gop_jeff []

Let's talk about Isaiah, and see what that prophet said about the Messiah:

Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Okay lets talk about the prophet Isaiah.

The verses above speaks of the suffering servant as the L-rd as he is growing up (i.e., the historical development of the Jewish people.) It is a continuation of Isaiah 52:14, where the prophet states that the servant seems, in the eyes of his enemies, the Gentiles, to have a repulsive appearance. Judging him merely on his outward features, they can find nothing positive to say about him. Suddenly, the Gentile nations and their rulers will be startled by the glorious transformation that will come about in the servant's fortunes. In amazement they will exclaim: "Who would have believed our report?" And to whom has the arm of the L-rd been revealed?"

Then they reflect upon their earlier reaction to him, attributing to G-d what was really their own lack of insight as to the true nature of the servant. Accordingly, they speak of the servant as one who "grew up before Him [G-d] as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry land" which is stunted and withered and does not produce fruit or distinguish itself in any way, being both unproductive and unsightly. They further state their opinion that the servant did not possess any physical attribute which should draw people to him.

Does this description fit the one of Jesus as depicted by the evangelists? Was Jesus a frail, unsightly child? Was he a repulsive adult. According to you proselitizers, he was, throughout his entire lifetime, greatly greatly desired by an ever growing multitude of people., as is striking illustrated in Luke's summation of Jesus' formative years: "And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and in physical growth [Luke 19:3], and in favor with G-d and men" (Luke 2:52). In his statement, it is asserted that Jesus was tall, wise, and enjoyed popularity even in the years prior to his active ministry. His handsome appearance and charismatic personality, it is intimated, attracked so many followers that the few negative reactions to his teachings and that he encountered early in his career were of no consequences. This is contrary to the description of the suffering servant of the L-rd found in Isaiah 53:2. There are simply n indications in the Gospels that Jesus, as he grew up, could in any way be likened to a "tender plant," i.e., stunted, or to a "root out of a dry land," i.e., withered, or that he was extremely repulsive to look at, as the servant was said to be by his many enemies. Thus we are compelled to conclude that the life of Jesus, as portrayed in the Gospels, does not at all fit that of the suffering servant of the L-rd as portrayed in Isaiah.

In Isiah 53:3, this verse, continuation of the theme of the previous one, speaks of the servant as being generally despised. He is described as suffering from pains adn diseases with which he is well acquainted. Terms having to do with wounds, sickness, pains and disease are often used in the Scriptures to describe the humiliations and adversities suffered by the nation of Israel (Isaiah 1:5-6: Jeremiah 10:19, 30-12). The prophet quotes the Gentiles as saying that the suffering servant of the L-rd was "despised and rejected" by their leaders, the "men of high status." They then indicate that this rejection was even more widespread, as implied in the words:"He was despised and we esteemed him not." The "we" includes a wider range of enemies than is expressed by the term "men of high status." Contrary to this verse, you Christians insist that Jesus was greatly admired by the large segments from every level of society.

True Christians claim that the Jewish rulers condemned Jesus, but, nevertheless, they assert that Jesus had many followers from among the ruling class. The evangelists speak of Jesus as one who, while losing, at times, many of his followers, alway had, even at the end of his life, a great many adherents. What is extremely significant is that these adherents came from every segment of society.

It becomes obvious that your Isaiah 53:1-3 verses do not refer to Jesus but to the Jewish people as the suffering servant of the L-rd.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by freeandfun1

The point is that some Christians will lose sight of who God really is. Frankly, I don't think Jesus would look approvingly of Christians that worship the Crucifix as it is God himself. That is the point AJ. The point is that God is the only one that can save you. Not the Crucifix, not Mary, nothing bud God himself. So the wooden image could not save them. Not even what the wooden image represents. By worshiping the wooden image, they lose site of the ONE, the ONLY God which was represented by Christ in the Flesh.So don't worship Jeuse the Man, but learn from Him the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The ONE GOD.

Sorry freeandfun but you have just one two many gods in the triune godhead.

Isaiah was given prophecy of the coming of the god of the carved wooden image, i.e., Jesus Christ of Nazareth. The One G-d is a jealous G-d and finds new foreign gods to be an abomination to Him.

Read my post above in response to Jeff-Gop and Isaiah 53:1-3 for a more complete answer. I don't chose to believe that Jesus, nor Allah is the Creator of all things.

No more than you would curse Jesus and worship Krishna.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by ajwps
Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Okay lets talk about the prophet Isaiah.

The verses above speaks of the suffering servant as the L-rd as he is growing up (i.e., the historical development of the Jewish people.) It is a continuation of Isaiah 52:14, where the prophet states that the servant seems, in the eyes of his enemies, the Gentiles, to have a repulsive appearance.

Untrue. It says He was not of extraordinary BEAUTY. In other words, plain.

Judging him merely on his outward features, they can find nothing positive to say about him.

Nope. It says they despise and turn away from Him because he was familiar with suffering. -Like people today cannot watch ethiopian people wasting away on their tv screens when the charities have infomercials to help starving kids.

Suddenly, the Gentile nations and their rulers will be startled by the glorious transformation that will come about in the servant's fortunes. In amazement they will exclaim: "Who would have believed our report?" And to whom has the arm of the L-rd been revealed?"

Then they reflect upon their earlier reaction to him, attributing to G-d what was really their own lack of insight as to the true nature of the servant. Accordingly, they speak of the servant as one who "grew up before Him [G-d] as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry land" which is stunted and withered and does not produce fruit or distinguish itself in any way, being both unproductive and unsightly.

Stunted and withered? How about tender because He was kind and humble like a child- a tender young plant in behavior. A root above ground like a man trying to be productive in a world unwilling to give nourishment.

Does this description fit the one of Jesus as depicted by the evangelists?

Yes. Let's look at the rest:

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

There are simply n indications in the Gospels that Jesus, as he grew up, could in any way be likened to a "tender plant," i.e., stunted, or to a "root out of a dry land," i.e., withered, or that he was extremely repulsive to look at,

Then your hypothesis is incorrect. -Again.

In Isiah 53:3, this verse, continuation of the theme of the previous one, speaks of the servant as being generally despised.

Gee, that's funny, I don't SEE a time frame of being despised there. As far as generalities go, you are proving the point you make as we speak.

He is described as suffering from pains adn diseases with which he is well acquainted.

Disease? Where? The only things I see as far as injuries were the ones inflicted upon Him by the people who crucified and tortured Him.

The prophet quotes the Gentiles as saying that the suffering servant of the L-rd was "despised and rejected" by their leaders, the "men of high status." They then indicate that this rejection was even more widespread, as implied in the words:"He was despised and we esteemed him not."

True. If past present and future are totalled, it still holds true. Claiming Him anything but divine is an insult and rejects who He claims He was/is.

The "we" includes a wider range of enemies than is expressed by the term "men of high status." Contrary to this verse, you Christians insist that Jesus was greatly admired by the large segments from every level of society.

There is a difference in "growing in popularity" and "being loved by everyone".

It becomes obvious that your Isaiah 53:1-3 verses do not refer to Jesus but to the Jewish people as the suffering servant of the L-rd.

Boy. That is DUMB. Where the scripture claims "him", you claim "them". It cannot, then, be divine in origin.

It is either "him" and divine, or "them" and corrupt.

In addition, everything, as I have shown, DOES fit Jesus as the Messiah.

 

[freeandfun1]

Originally posted by ajwps
Sorry freeandfun but you have just one two many gods in the triune godhead.

Isaiah was given prophecy of the coming of the god of the carved wooden image, i.e., Jesus Christ of Nazareth. The One G-d is a jealous G-d and finds new foreign gods to be an abomination to Him.

Read my post above in response to Jeff-Gop and Isaiah 53:1-3 for a more complete answer. I don't chose to believe that Jesus, nor Allah is the Creator of all things.

No more than you would curse Jesus and worship Krishna.

You totally ignore my point or are just too stupid to see it. In my opinion what they are talking about is how people will come to worship Jesus the Man and not God. Do you get that? The point is that no image is supposed to represent God. God walked amoung men in the form of Jesus. There were not two different or three different people. There was one. But for man to "undestand" God, he had to be born in the image of a man (Jesus). That is my opinion. Some might not believe as I do but that is my belief. Again, the verse is describing how people will come to worship only Jesus not what Jesus represents. The Bible does not ask us to worship Jesus. It tells us we have to believe that Jesus (God) died in the flesh so that we can all achieve everlasting life. What many "christians" do today is worship the symbol of God and not GOD.

Now do you get it?

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by freeandfun1
You totally ignore my point or are just too stupid to see it. In my opinion what they are talking about is how people will come to worship the crucifix more than they worship God. Do you get that? The point is that no image is supposed to represent God. God walked amoung men in the form of Jesus. There were not two different or three different people. There was one. But for man to "undestand" God, he had to be born in the image of a man (Jesus). That is my opinion. Some might not believe as I do but that is my belief. Again, the verse is describing how people will come to worship only Jesus not what Jesus represents. The Bible does not ask us to worship Jesus. It tells us we have to believe that Jesus (God) died in the flesh so that we can all achieve everlasting life. What many "christians" do today is worship the symbol of God and not GOD.

Now do you get it?

For the record, I am entirely in agreement with this perspective.

 

[freeandfun1]

Originally posted by NewGuy
For the record, I am entirely in agreement with this perspective.

I am still learning more and more everyday. The more I read with an open mind, the clearer it becomes to me. I have also read books other than the Bible to help me understand. Some that I don't totally agree with, but in many ways they help me see what the true meanings of the verses are....

Have you read "Beyond Belief"? I don't totally agree with the author, but in reading her book, I got a better grasp of what Jesus really represents. Frankly, her book covered so much I am still trying to figure out how her historical perspective clashes (if it does) with my beliefs. She uses a lot of references from the Nag Hammadi texts and I don't yet know enough about them to make any judgements.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by freeandfun1
I am still learning more and more everyday. The more I read with an open mind, the clearer it becomes to me. I have also read books other than the Bible to help me understand. Some that I don't totally agree with, but in many ways they help me see what the true meanings of the verses are....

Have you read "Beyond Belief"? I don't totally agree with the author, but in reading her book, I got a better grasp of what Jesus really represents. Frankly, her book covered so much I am still trying to figure out how her historical perspective clashes (if it does) with my beliefs. She uses a lot of references from the Nag Hammadi texts and I don't yet know enough about them to make any judgements.

I know a little....which is enough to discard the texts as being reliable.

This quotation from the 'Gospel of Thomas' in which Jesus is supposed to be speaking expressed perfectly the New Age view of 'All is One', God is in everything:

'It is I who am the light which is above them all. It is I who am the All. From me did the All come forth, and unto me did the All extend. Split a piece of wood and I am there. Lift up a stone and you will find me there.' (James M. Robinson ed. The Nag Hammadi Library, p. 126).

In addition the New Age draws heavily from pre-Christian tribal religions, from the Druids to native American (Red Indian) medicine men.

This stuff is the root text of the new age movement and cannot be proven in line with Biblical text. Make it prove its self. It can't.

 

[freeandfun1]

I already knew enough to know that I didn't buy that part of the book I read. But like I said, in her discussing the different views of Christianity, it helped me understand what Jesus truly represents. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but I am confident God helped me discover my own mistaken views while reading that book. Instead of corrupting me, it helped me understand what I was reading in the Bible even though I didn't agree with their entire message.

The main thing that made me know off the bat that I couldn't believe in the entire message the book represented was the fact that she never discusses the prophecies of the coming of Jesus nor the prophecies that relate to Israel, etc. She conveniently overlooked the other books of the New Testament and their messages.

 

[NewGuy]

I have found the most spirited movies and books when combined with Biblical scripture, give us better insight to ourselves and help us relate to our shortcomings better.

The Bible is great, but sometimes, you need a different perspective to fully relate to the point.

I didn't get the point about stewardship driven home until I saw "Braveheart" and "The Patriot".

Before then, I thought stewardship was about money in the bank and the house you lived in. Now I know it is MUCH more, and not just the material things.

Somehow, I don't think those two movies are the most "Christian".

 

[Avatar4321]

Originally posted by NewGuy
I have found the most spirited movies and books when combined with Biblical scripture, give us better insight to ourselves and help us relate to our shortcomings better.

The Bible is great, but sometimes, you need a different perspective to fully relate to the point.

I didn't get the point about stewardship driven home until I saw "Braveheart" and "The Patriot".

Before then, I thought stewardship was about money in the bank and the house you lived in. Now I know it is MUCH more, and not just the material things.

Somehow, I don't think those two movies are the most "Christian".

a Good movie with Christian themes is star wars.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Avatar4321
a Good movie with Christian themes is star wars.

"using the force" is new-age.

The whole batch o' movies is ridden with new age philosophy. -That is NOT following Christ. It is NOT Christian.