Zone1 "Nothing creates itself"

[BreezeWood]

And you don't know what forces were at work any more than I do or the most brilliant Earth scientists/biologists that have ever lived. Therefore intelligent design is as much a reasonable explanation as any other anybody can come up with whether or not an anti-religionist doesn't want to include it in the possibilities.

- well those forces are known and they did create physiology, a metaphysical substance that is not native to planet earth and are likewise responsible for the elements of the periodic table.

 

[Foxfyre]

Magic is a term used by humans who cant understand what is happening...

Well none of us understand how it all got done so all the theories, however popular, are just as much hypothesis as Spinoza or Einstein's concept of intelligent design. Technically, in scientific jargon, not even hypothesis as there is no known way (to us anyway) of how to test it.

"Magic" is a derogatory term they use to discredit those who presume or believe that there is a spiritual dimension as well as a physical one; that there are spiritual beings in addition to the creatures that inhabit Planet Earth and/or the Universe.

 

[Mikeoxenormous]

I’m close.

As I said earlier, it strikes me as more than coincidental that our scientists and physicists can derive so many essential laws of nature without something behind all of that complex math and science.

Accordingly, as I also said before, if either the universe itself is the thing that existed without need of somehow being created OR God is that Entity, I cannot conclude that it was the universe itself. Far too much manifestation of “design” and intelligence undergirding almost all of it.

Now. Again, what part of anything I said led you to feel compelled to disagree with my views?

I cannot believe that everything about the universe is dumb luck, that a random series of events took place, and here we are. If there was no intelligent design at work, humans would look more like this.

 

[rightwinger]

I cannot believe that everything about the universe is dumb luck, that a random series of events took place, and here we are. If there was no intelligent design at work, humans would look more like this.

View attachment 935225

And how do you know that is not beauty if that is the way we evolved?

Watch Twilight Zone…Eye of the Beholder

 

[alang1216]

According to the principle of causality, nothing can create itself because that would imply that something exists before it exists, which is logically impossible.

Everything that exists must have a cause or reason for its existence. In other words, everything that begins to exist has a cause external to itself.

From a scientific perspective, the law of conservation of energy states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transferred or transformed. This principle applies to matter as well, meaning that nothing can come into existence without a cause.

Therefore, the idea that something can create itself goes against fundamental principles of logic, physics, and philosophy. It is a concept that is not supported by any empirical evidence or rational argument.

==>God is eternal and uncreated?

The concept of God being eternal and uncreated is a fundamental belief in many religious traditions. According to this belief, God exists outside of time and space and is not bound by the same limitations as the created universe.

Therefore, God does not need a creator because God is seen as the ultimate source of all existence. This idea of an eternal and uncreated God is different from the concept of the universe or energy, which is subject to the laws of cause and effect.

In many religious teachings, God is seen as the first cause or the prime mover that set everything into motion. Ultimately, the question of who or what created God may remain a mystery beyond human understanding.

It is a question that has puzzled theologians, philosophers, and thinkers for centuries, and different religious traditions offer various explanations or interpretations.

Ultimately, faith and personal beliefs play a significant role in how individuals understand the existence of an eternal and uncreated God.

Edit : God and Nirvana( Buddhism )may be the same thing. Because the two are not subject to the laws of cause and effect. In other words, both of them are beyond the realm of cause and effect.

It is the concept of 'nothing' that may not exist. What really boggles my mind is how vast our ignorance is on the whole concept of God. Even assuming that everything in the Bible is true and comes from God, we have no way of checking on what we believe. Is God eternal and omnipotent? How do we know that except that is what He claims. How many gods are there? Originally there were many in the Bible, now we recognize only one. Are there many? Does God know that answer or is he a creation of a higher god and is unaware of the higher god?

In short, if everything we believe about God come from God, where does that leave us? Faith alone?

 

[alang1216]

I cannot believe that everything about the universe is dumb luck, that a random series of events took place, and here we are.

Evolution is not random or based on dumb luck. Only natural forces.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Indeed. Sinple but profound.

So God didn't create Himself. So who did?

 

[ActionJackson]

Indeed. Sinple but profound.

I've always believed that it makes more sense to believe that "Something" created everything than to believe that "nothing" created everything. It also makes more sense to believe that order and purpose and design are the result of an ordered, purposeful Designer than to believe that order, purpose, and design are products of a trillion accidents.

 

[Mikeoxenormous]

So God didn't create Himself. So who did?

Again, you are thinking in human terms, if you could even call it "thinking".

 

[alang1216]

It also makes more sense to believe that order and purpose and design are the result of an ordered, purposeful Designer than to believe that order, purpose, and design are products of a trillion accidents.

Why not, it happens every day. Crystals are the orderly arrangement of trillions of atoms that were originally randomly scattered throughout a liquid. It is the result of natural forces, no designer is required.

 

[ActionJackson]

Why not, it happens every day. Crystals are the orderly arrangement of trillions of atoms that were originally randomly scattered throughout a liquid. It is the result of natural forces, no designer is required.

And the process that leads to crystal formation is the result of the Designer's will and purpose.

 

[Dadoalex]

Indeed. Sinple but profound.

Who/What created "God?"

 

[alang1216]

And the process that leads to crystal formation is the result of the Designer's will and purpose.

You could say the same about every natural process, including evolution.

 

[ActionJackson]

You could say the same about every natural process, including evolution.

I do!! Nobody says that microevolution doesn't exist. God's design is purposeful yet flexible to a degree.

 

[HaShev]

Indeed. Sinple but profound.

That's why the most finite source of creation can not be a figure or form which has a further process that created it. Hence the Judaic description of creator/creation as an Essence not a figure or form.
That finite essence being that source & nature to progress to be everything you could and should be-to become "stable, complete, and whole"(Shalem) aka evolve.
In Genesis the world is chaotic, God (the Essence) makes it stable and brings order out of that chaos, it does not say out of nothing.
Hence Moshiach as a reflection of God's essence mediates between God(that nature to progress) and man (chaotic till Shalem-complete and whole) showing us the path so we truly know what's in line with creation and what is in opposition to creation, so it's no longer subjective, but obvious fact, so we reach where we could and should be=creating order out of the existing chaos.
One see's this battle today in the 2 parties, the Left in it's nihilist tendencies thinks law and ORDER is irrelevant to them and thus they create the chaos=opposite the creations intent, while many in the Right want Order and stability and to make the country Shalem (whole and complete and stable again)

 

[ActionJackson]

That's why the most finite source of creation can not be a figure or form which has a further process that created it. Hence the Judaic description of creator/creation as an Essence not a figure or form.
That finite essence being that source & nature to progress to be everything you could and should be-to become "stable, complete, and whole"(Shalem) aka evolve.
In Genesis the world is chaotic, God (the Essence) makes it stable and brings order out of that chaos, it does not say out of nothing.
Hence Moshiach as a reflection of God's essence mediates between God(that nature to progress) and man (chaotic till Shalem-complete and whole) showing us the path so we truly know what's in line with creation and what is in opposition to creation, so it's no longer subjective, but obvious fact, so we reach where we could and should be=creating order out of the existing chaos.
One see's this battle today in the 2 parties, the Left in it's nihilist tendencies thinks law and ORDER is irrelevant to them and thus they create the chaos=opposite the creations intent, while many in the Right want Order and stability and to make the country Shalem (whole and complete and stable again)

Without this “essence” where did the “chaotic world” come from? Something or nothing? If you answer “something” then where did THAT come from?

 

[alang1216]

I do!! Nobody says that microevolution doesn't exist. God's design is purposeful yet flexible to a degree.

It is microevolution that doesn't exist. Evolution is a continuous process, 'micro' and 'macro' are not scientific concepts. We see the results all around us. Are horses and donkeys the same species?

 

[HaShev]

Without this “essence” where did the “chaotic world” come from? Something or nothing? If you answer “something” then where did THAT come from?

you can't take out the answer to the question to re-ask the question, the essence to be causes that atom to pop into existance. Hence calling it the most finite source.

 

[BreezeWood]

And the process that leads to crystal formation is the result of the Designer's will and purpose.

the metaphysical forces are a polytheist collection that govern the universe, your cave man mentality, will and purpose has little to nothing to contribute and most likely they will not miss your presence when their gift no longer functions for your chosen state of dementia comes to its conclusion.

 

[kyzr]

And how do you know that is not beauty if that is the way we evolved?

Watch Twilight Zone…Eye of the Beholder

Also watch
"In his image"
"Mirror Image"