Challeng for anti-Evolutionists

[dmp]

Really it is that surrendering of our free will that is hard for many including myself to do, although since I have my life has been a lot less complicated and happier. Especially for those who have to have proof of everything.

Often those people don't seek 'proof' - they seek 'justification of their opinion/choices'...

 

[LuvRPgrl]

I don't expect someone to reproduce an accident. Yet you use this every day example of how unlikely it is to reproduce an accident to lead you to conclusions about our existence? Now that IS stupid.

where did I claim I used that example to come to a conclusion for my self about our existence?

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Are you not reading? Nobody has to 'create' evil...Evil isn't 'something'. Evil describes what is 'opposite of Good'.

Yeah you do. If there is nothing, that means there is nothing. No matter, no laws, no ideas, no concepts, no nothing. There is the absence of existence. If there is nothing, only God, concepts like evil and good don't exist unless God creates them. Get it now?

 

[Bonnie]

If our future is pre-determined, then we cannot have free will--only the illusion of it.

Our futures are not pre-determined, that's the whole point, God may know what we ultimately end up doing but he always holds out the hope we will become great people and change our own destiny if we seek him out..

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Our futures are not pre-determined, that's the whole point, God may know what we ultimately end up doing but he always holds out the hope we will become great people and change our own destiny.

That's stupid. If you've seen a movie before, do you still hold out hope that somehow the outcome of the movie will change the second time you watch it?

 

[dilloduck]

No. You guys miss the point. It's simple. If in the beginning, there was nothing but God then God would have had to have created both good and evil in order for them to exist and God would also have to be inherently both good and evil because if he were only good, then he would be incapable of creating evil.

Also, God can't be omnipotent if we have free will. One or the other has to give. An omnipotent being would know before we are born how our lives will turn out and what kind of person we will be. If our future is pre-determined, then we cannot have free will--only the illusion of it.

Why is it that God had to create evil? Maybe evil is an ignorant judgement call by a man who chose to have free will? Man simply labels things as evil because he can't see the ultimate reason for it.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Why is it that God had to create evil? Maybe evil is an ignorant judgement call by a man who chose to have free will? Man simply labels things as evil because he can't see the ultimate reason for it.

See above posts by me. If God created man, then everything that man does is a result of God's act of creation. In a reality created by God, there can be nothing in that reality that isn't the result of God's act of creation. Starting to get the picture?

 

[Bonnie]

That's stupid. If you've seen a movie before, do you still hold out hope that somehow the outcome of the movie will change the second time you watch it?

Sigh.......it's not stupid, movies don't have free will, people do.....Now your really reaching LOL

 

[Bonnie]

See above posts by me. If God created man, then everything that man does is a result of God's act of creation. In a reality created by God, there can be nothing in that reality that isn't the result of God's act of creation. Starting to get the picture?

Well then if you so vehimantly believe in evil you must believe in God then? After all one can't exist without the other?

 

[LuvRPgrl]

No. You guys miss the point. It's simple. If in the beginning, there was nothing but God then God would have had to have created both good and evil in order for them to exist and God would also have to be inherently both good and evil because if he were only good, then he would be incapable of creating evil.

Also, God can't be omnipotent if we have free will. One or the other has to give. An omnipotent being would know before we are born how our lives will turn out and what kind of person we will be. If our future is pre-determined, then we cannot have free will--only the illusion of it.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

U two are missing the point. As DMP so aptly stated, evil is not a thing that is created, so how can God have created it?

I moved my arm, did God create that movement? NO

Evil is not a "thing" to be created.

Now, you guys have also ignored the post where I stated if God didnt give us free will to choose to do evil, then you would be complaining about not having "FREEDOM", so which do you want, to be a robot? or to have free will? Its simple, its one or the other,,,CHOOSE PLEASE.....

Excellent post and point DMP, I would rep that if I could, not sure if I can or not,

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Sigh.......it's not stupid, movies don't have free will, people do.....Now your really reaching LOL

No, just think for a second please. If you are omnipotent and you are timeless, infinite and you can see someone's entire life from start to finish and you know how it begins and how it ends before that person is even born, why would you hold out hope that the person would save himself if you already knew that he would be damned? Just like you know Old Yeller is going to get rabies and get shot at the end, why would you hold out hope that the movie would somehow change the second time you watched it?:huh:

(edit)And how could a person have free will if that person's future is already known by God? It can't happen. One plus one doesn't equal three just like free will and the ability to change one's final outcome cannot be exercised if the final outcome is already known.

Unless you were to argue that God, being omnipotent, knows the outcomes of an infinite amount of paths that could be taken by a person. However, this too would be shot down because there could only be one final outcome which would equal either salvation or eternal torment. And, being omnipotent, God would still know what the final outcome out of an infinite number of paths would be. So it is impossible for both God's omnipotence and our free will to exist. Either God's power is limited and we have free will - or - God is omnipotent and we all have pre-determined fates.

 

[dilloduck]

See above posts by me. If God created man, then everything that man does is a result of God's act of creation. In a reality created by God, there can be nothing in that reality that isn't the result of God's act of creation. Starting to get the picture?

no because it's crazy logic-------if YOU did a big rock out of your garden and someone kills someone with it , is it your fault/responsibility ?

 

[dilloduck]

No, just think for a second please. If you are omnipotent and you are timeless, infinite and you can see someone's entire life from start to finish and you know how it begins and how it ends before that person is even born, why would you hold out hope that the person would save himself if you already knew that he would be damned? Just like you know Old Yeller is going to get rabies and get shot at the end, why would you hold out hope that the movie would somehow change the second time you watched it?:huh:

I don't know---I couldn't begin to question Gods' motives. Maybe he just likes to do that sorta thing--who knows?

 

[Hagbard Celine]

no because it's crazy logic-------if YOU did a big rock out of your garden and someone kills someone with it , is it your fault/responsibility ?

No, it makes perfect sense. God didn't dig us out of his garden. God created all existence from nothing. The Bible states clearly that in the beginning, there is God and a void. Nothing exists in the void except for God. Nothing we experience or know or do could have come from anywhere but God. I'm repeating myself over and over and over again. It's simple people.

 

[dmp]

Yeah you do. If there is nothing, that means there is nothing. No matter, no laws, no ideas, no concepts, no nothing. There is the absence of existence. If there is nothing, only God, concepts like evil and good don't exist unless God creates them. Get it now?

you don't get it because you refuse to get it, brother.

 

[dilloduck]

No, it makes perfect sense. God didn't dig us out of his garden. God created all existence from nothing. The Bible states clearly that in the beginning, there is God and a void. Nothing exists in the void except for God. Nothing we experience or know or do could have come from anywhere but God. I'm repeating myself over and over and over again. It's simple people.

hint----maybe evil is an illusion created by man who thinks he knows what's happening in the universe.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

you don't get it because you refuse to get it, brother.

What the heck does that mean? Ya'll's logic is faulty. You guys don't see that it would be impossible for anything, including the concepts of good and evil, to exist without God making it exist?

Nothing would exist without God. Evil exists. Therefore, God created evil. Simple.

 

[dmp]

What the heck does that mean? Ya'll's logic is faulty. You guys don't see that it would be impossible for anything, including the concepts of good and evil, to exist without God making it exist?

Nothing would exist without God. Evil exists. Therefore, God created evil. Simple.

Evil isn't a 'thing'. You refuse to accept that very important fact.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

hint----maybe evil is an illusion created by man who thinks he knows what's happening in the universe.

Okay, evil is an illusion created by man. If evil is an illusion created by man, who created man's ability to create illusions and concepts like evil? Answer: God. Again, nothing can exist in our reality without having come from God. Man cannot create anything out of nothing, only God can.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Evil isn't a 'thing'. You refuse to accept that very important fact.

Evil is a concept. A concept is a thing. Done.