Challeng for anti-Evolutionists

[Zhukov]

If God made the system, why are the things that God has deemed "sins" sins? It's because God arbitrarily decided what the sins are. In other words, what is "good" or godly in our reality is only "good" because God deemed it so.

No, you aren't following. Like I said, god didn't deem or declare anything. There was no consideration, there was no internal debate. He didn't make a list.

Sin is sin by it's very nature.

God is infallible and perfectly good. He can point at anything and say 'sin'
or 'not sin', not as an arbitrary itemization, not just because he said so, but because of his inherent perfection.

So what basis of comparison would God have used to declare certain acts in the reality he created good or bad?

The basis of his own perfection.

It would have been arbitrary because there was no good or evil before God created reality.

There was good, because god is good.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

There was good, because god is good.

Good compared to what? The void?

 

[Zhukov]

Good compared to what? The void?

Not compared to anything. That's what they mean by: God is good.

Not that hey God is big, and bright, and good, no God and good are in some ways synonymous. There is no good without God. God IS good. That sort of thing.

So before creation you have God and the void. God is good.

What's the first thing god did? If I remember correctly he made light, "and he saw that it was good."

Not, he said that it was good. He created it, and according to his infallible perception of good he was able to determine that light was good.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

God would also be evil too right? Afterall, without God there would be no evil.

 

[Bonnie]

God created the concept of sin because God created creation. So wouldn't it stand to reason that we are all just being toyed with? "Accept me or be tortured in hell for all eternity?" Sounds like some sort of deviant game a small child would play with an ant and a magnifying glass. If God didn't want to send any soul to hell, then why would God create an arbitrary system where people will go to hell?

Not arbitrary...again it's called Free Will, I don't expect you to understand because it would seem that your hatred of God and or religion stems from the very fact that there really is right and wrong which you cannot accept, and further your seeming disgust with conservatives and religious people comes from the fact that religious people make actual judgments about right and wrong living from day to day the best way they know how to. God is a very loving God but just like parents who love their children they discipline and punish when necessary to help make their kids better people, but also to help them live easier in the world, and just like God all they ask for is an apology no matter what sin was committed and all is forgiven.

If you really don't believe in God why do you give a shit???

 

[Bonnie]

God would also be evil too right? Afterall, without God there would be no evil.

No god created angels and one angel had a lot of pride, he got kicked out of heaven taking his followers with him, about 1/3 of all the angels who hated the idea that God loved us more than them started their own thing elsewhere, and now it has become a tug of war between those angels that serve god, and us, and the others who hate God with a firery vengence and want to corrupt as many souls as possible in order to hurt him. We are free to choose whatever side we wish. It's not that hard.

 

[Powerman]

No god created angels and one angel had a lot of pride, he got kicked out of heaven taking his followers with him, about 1/3 of all the angels who hated the idea that God loved us more than them started their own thing elsewhere, and now it has become a tug of war between those angels that serve god, and us, and the others who hate God with a firery vengence and want to corrupt as many souls as possible in order to hurt him. We are free to choose whatever side we wish. It's not that hard.

But Bonnie surely you must see that if God created the Angels and the Angels acted out of hatred then God must have instilled some evil potential within them. Thus without God there would be no evil. You can't say that without God there would be no good and then say that he is not also responsible for evil. That's having your cake, eating it, then complaining that you're fat after. Just doesn't work.

 

[Bonnie]

But Bonnie surely you must see that if God created the Angels and the Angels acted out of hatred then God must have instilled some evil potential within them. Thus without God there would be no evil. You can't say that without God there would be no good and then say that he is not also responsible for evil. That's having your cake, eating it, then complaining that you're fat after. Just doesn't work.

I understand you thinking that but the short answer is nope. He created free will, the last thing he wanted was to make people bow in allegiance to him, if that were the case there would be no sin, evil came not from God but from free will and pride, original sin now. There will always be consequences for our actions, that's just the way it is.

Bottom line is Christians, and other people of other faiths are no better or more valuable than anyone else, the difference though is people of faith make an attempt to recognize when they have offended their God and truly are sorry making amends because they want to.

 

[dmp]

But Bonnie surely you must see that if God created the Angels and the Angels acted out of hatred then God must have instilled some evil potential within them. Thus without God there would be no evil. You can't say that without God there would be no good and then say that he is not also responsible for evil. That's having your cake, eating it, then complaining that you're fat after. Just doesn't work.

If you believe I created my kids, you may understand what ppl are trying to get you to see.

I created my children (of course, my wife helped). I did NOT create within them the need to jump-rope in the house. Yet they DO that. Why? Because they were created with a CHOICE to obey the rules or not. I did not FORCE them to disobey, I did not create in them the DESIRE to disobey. To allow somebody to FULLY love Him, God HAD To give us the ability to obey him or NOT obey him. God did not CREATE the sin in our lives, or that of his Angels. The sin was their disbelief, or disobedience.

 

[Powerman]

If you believe I created my kids, you may understand what ppl are trying to get you to see.

I created my children (of course, my wife helped). I did NOT create within them the need to jump-rope in the house. Yet they DO that. Why? Because they were created with a CHOICE to obey the rules or not. I did not FORCE them to disobey, I did not create in them the DESIRE to disobey. To allow somebody to FULLY love Him, God HAD To give us the ability to obey him or NOT obey him. God did not CREATE the sin in our lives, or that of his Angels. The sin was their disbelief, or disobedience.

The difference between you and this alleged God is that God is perfect.

The error in your logic as well as Bonnie's logic is simple to see. If God created everything then he must have created evil as well. Comparing procreation to the creation of all is just silly.

 

[dilloduck]

The original sin was just an arbitrary rule God made telling Adam and Eve not to eat from a certain tree.

Arbitrary? Reading will tell you that they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Think about it---prior to listening to evil, people were unaware of good and bad and there was therefore no judgement or guilt. If God created the serpent to tempt man into doing it,so be it.

Now take a step back out of the biblical allegory and think about awareness. What DID make man reflect on himself and make moral judgements. Where did this ability, sense or perception come from ? The Bible describes it as a consequence of a choice. If man did not have free will I can only assume we would be as animals, only responding to what our genetic make up told us to do. Our only other option in existence is to choose to have free will and WITH that comes responsibilty. God gave us a simple map to follow that is a pretty good guideline to having a relatively happy life if we follow it. If we don't, our lives will be like hell. I bet God roots for us even.

 

[Bonnie]

If you believe I created my kids, you may understand what ppl are trying to get you to see.

I created my children (of course, my wife helped). I did NOT create within them the need to jump-rope in the house. Yet they DO that. Why? Because they were created with a CHOICE to obey the rules or not. I did not FORCE them to disobey, I did not create in them the DESIRE to disobey. To allow somebody to FULLY love Him, God HAD To give us the ability to obey him or NOT obey him. God did not CREATE the sin in our lives, or that of his Angels. The sin was their disbelief, or disobedience.

You know what Darin when you think about it God gives us so much and asks for such little in return. I look at Hollywood stars and all that he gave them money, fame and the opporunity to do godd with that fame and some do many don't etc, then I think about how many of them spit in his face and it boggles my mind. I have to think with all they have they really are not happy and at peace with themselves or they wouldn't be so mixed up...JMO

 

[Bonnie]

The difference between you and this alleged God is that God is perfect.

The error in your logic as well as Bonnie's logic is simple to see. If God created everything then he must have created evil as well. Comparing procreation to the creation of all is just silly.

In your opinion of course

 

[Bonnie]

Arbitrary? Reading will tell you that they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Think about it---prior to listening to evil, people were unaware of good and bad and there was therefore no judgement or guilt. If God created the serpent to tempt man into doing it,so be it.

Now take a step back out of the biblical allegory and think about awareness. What DID make man reflect on himself and make moral judgements. Where did this ability, sense or perception come from ? The Bible describes it as a consequence of a choice. If man did not have free will I can only assume we would be as animals, only responding to what our genetic make up told us to do. Our only other option in existence is to choose to have free will and WITH that comes responsibilty. God gave us a simple map to follow that is a pretty good guideline to having a relatively happy life if we follow it. If we don't, our lives will be like hell. I bet God roots for us even.

Great post L !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[dmp]

The difference between you and this alleged God is that God is perfect.

The error in your logic as well as Bonnie's logic is simple to see. If God created everything then he must have created evil as well. Comparing procreation to the creation of all is just silly.

There is an assumption here that needs to be cleared up. Evil is not a "thing" - like a rock or electricity. You can't have a jar of evil! Rather, evil is something that occurs, like running. Evil has no existence of its own - it is really a lack in a good thing. For example, holes are real but they only exist in something else. We call the absence of dirt a hole - but it cannot be separated from the dirt. So when God created, it is true that all that existed was good. One of the good things that God made was creatures who had the freedom to choose good. In order to have a real choice, God had to allow there to be something besides good to choose. So God allowed these free angels and humans to choose good or non-good (evil). When a bad relationship exists between two good things we call that evil, but it does not become a "thing" that required God to create it.

Perhaps a further illustration will help. If I were to ask the average person "does cold exist?" - their answer would likely be yes. However, this is incorrect. Cold does not exist. Cold is the absence of heat. Similarly, darkness does not exist. Darkness is the absence of light. Similarly, evil is the absence of good, or better, evil is the absence of God. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good.

Look at the example of Job in Job chapters 1-2. Satan wanted to destroy Job, and God allowed Satan to do everything but kill Job. God allowed this to happen to prove to Satan that Job was righteous because he loved God, not because God had blessed him so richly. God is sovereign and ultimately in control of everything that happens. Satan cannot do anything unless he has God's "permission." God did not create evil, but He allows evil. If God had not allowed for the possibility of evil, both mankind and angels would be serving God out of obligation, not choice. He did not want “robots” that simply did what He wanted them to do because of their "programming." God allowed for the possibility of evil so that we could genuinely have a free will and choose whether we wanted to serve Him or not.

Ultimately, there is not an answer to these questions that we can fully comprehend. We, as finite human beings, can never fully understand an infinite God (Romans 11:33-34). Sometimes we think we understand why God is doing something, only to find out later that it was for a different purpose than we originally thought. God looks at things from an eternal perspective. We look at things from an earthly perspective. Why did God put man on earth knowing that Adam and Eve would sin and therefore bring evil, death, and suffering on all mankind? Why didn’t He just create us all and leave us in Heaven where we would be perfect and without suffering? The best answer I can come up with is this: God didn’t want a race of robots who did not have a free will. God had to allow the possibility of evil for us to have a true choice of whether to worship God or not. If we never had to suffer and experience evil, would we truly know how wonderful heaven is? God did not create evil, but He allowed it. If He hadn’t allowed evil, we would be worshipping Him out of obligation, not by a choice of our own free will.

 

[Bonnie]

God's purposes in creating the universe go beyond merely creating free will beings that love Him in this temporary universe. Jesus explained the ultimate goal of God in the parable of the banquet:

Jesus replied: "A certain man [representing God] was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests. At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, 'Come, for everything is now ready.' But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, 'I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.' Another said, 'I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I'm on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.' Still another said, 'I just got married, so I can't come.' The servant came back and reported this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and ordered his servant, 'Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame.' 'Sir,' the servant said, 'what you ordered has been done, but there is still room.' Then the master told his servant, 'Go out to the roads and country lanes and make them come in, so that my house will be full. (Luke 14:16-23)

Therefore, God wants not only a relationship with humans in this universe, but a relationship with billions14 of these creatures in His future, perfect creation. If God's purpose is to have relationships with free will beings in a future creation, then there must be a means by which these beings can make a choice to enter or not enter into this relationship. The means by which we make this choice is exactly the message of the Bible.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evilandsuffering.html

 

[dilloduck]

Jesus replied: "A certain man [representing God] was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests. At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, 'Come, for everything is now ready.' But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, 'I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.' Another said, 'I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I'm on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.' Still another said, 'I just got married, so I can't come.' The servant came back and reported this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and ordered his servant, 'Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame.' 'Sir,' the servant said, 'what you ordered has been done, but there is still room.' Then the master told his servant, 'Go out to the roads and country lanes and make them come in, so that my house will be full. (Luke 14:16-23)


http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evilandsuffering.html

eloquent but may I try to simplify?

WE chose free will and to run our own lives---the only way back is to surrender our will back and we can feel confident in doing so because we have been sent a message of guaranteed forgiveness and grace.

 

[Bonnie]

eloquent but may I try to simplify?

WE chose free will and to run our own lives---the only way back is to surrender our will back and we can feel confident in doing so because we have been sent a message of guaranteed forgiveness and grace.

Really it is that surrendering of our free will that is hard for many including myself to do, although since I have my life has been a lot less complicated and happier. Especially for those who have to have proof of everything.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

No. You guys miss the point. It's simple. If in the beginning, there was nothing but God then God would have had to have created both good and evil in order for them to exist and God would also have to be inherently both good and evil because if he were only good, then he would be incapable of creating evil.

Also, God can't be omnipotent if we have free will. One or the other has to give. An omnipotent being would know before we are born how our lives will turn out and what kind of person we will be. If our future is pre-determined, then we cannot have free will--only the illusion of it.

 

[dmp]

No. You guys miss the point. It's simple. If in the beginning, there was nothing but God then God would have had to have created both good and evil in order for them to exist and God would also have to be inherently both good and evil because if he were only good, then he would be incapable of creating evil.

Also, God can't be omnipotent if we have free will. One or the other has to give. An omnipotent being would know before we are born how our lives will turn out and what kind of person we will be. If our future is pre-determined, then we cannot have free will--only the illusion of it.

Are you not reading? Nobody has to 'create' evil...Evil isn't 'something'. Evil describes what is 'opposite of Good'.