Challeng for anti-Evolutionists

[dmp]

Evil is a concept. A concept is a thing. Done.

No. Evil is a description. Evil is only a word we use to describe the absence of Good/God.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

No. Evil is a description. Evil is only a word we use to describe the absence of Good/God.

A description is a thing too and would not exist had God not created the potential for it in his creation.

 

[dmp]

A description is a thing too and would not exist had God not created the potential for it in his creation.

Deep runs Circlular logic in this one

A description is a thing eh. If I paid you $100, would you mail to me a jar of 'description'?

 

[dmp]

Did you ever write a letter to a guy named "Lenny"?

Dear Lenny,

I am a non-believer in the Christian faith. I have read some of the discussions in your "Come Let Us Reason Together" web site. Your answers to questions posted there still do not convince me of the existence of God. One discussion under the title of "The Problem of Evil" prompted me to raise this point with you: If evil exists and God created everything then by inference God created evil.

Christianity teaches that God who is all-powerful and all-loving created the universe. By the Christian definition everything is created by God. Everything includes evil and sins. So it is a logical deduction that evil and sins are creations of God.

The usual argument against the above claim is that God created human and gave him free-will. It is the free choice of human to do bad that results in evil and sin. However, I think this sort of argument is not sound at all.

Now we must distinguish between free-will (or freedom) and capabilities. For example, humans were created without being able to fly, dogs can hear sound frequencies that human cannot hear. These are examples of human inability (or lack of capability). I don't think anyone would regard God as having restricted our freedom by not providing human with these capabilities. Capability and freedom are two unrelated, separate issues.

Now when it comes to our mind, the same argument applies. Human are capable of greed, hatred, self-righteousness, jealousy and many more evil deeds. These are also capabilities just like we can walk and talk. Now the important question is that when God created human why did he let us have these bad capabilities? God could have created human so that human is not capable of thinking and doing bad. Not giving human the capability to think and do bad is not a restriction on human's free-will. Yet God not only chose to create human who is capable of doing evil but also gave him the free-will to choose to do evil. It does not make sense that a all-loving God would create something which is capable of evil and let him harm innocent people. If God is all-powerful and exists beyond time (as you have said in your web site) he must know the future. He must know the consequences of giving human such bad capabilities. Yet God chose so. Therefore I don't believe there exists such a God as the Christians have described. If such a God exists he deserves no worship.

What do you think?

Yours disbelieve,

Thomas

Hi Thomas,

Your letter is interesting. You make a distinction between abilities and free will, which I believe is proper. However, you have mis-interpreted the problem and that is what’s causing you some trouble.

In your letter you made the following argument:

"Christianity teaches that God who is all-powerful and all-loving created the universe. By the Christian definition everything is created by God. Everything includes evil and sins. So it is a logical deduction that evil and sins are creations of God."

The problem here is that you have a faulty premise. Evil and sins are not "things" in and of themselves. They do not exist autonomously. Rather, they are the absence of the perfect which God did make. This becomes complicated, so let me give you a couple of examples. I have the ability to create a vacuum of space. Now I do this not by making something out of materials, but by removing all the air and particles out of that space. The void that remains is what we choose to label a vacuum. It isn’t a thing in itself, but it is a term we use to state that everything else is gone. Likewise we use the term cold to describe a lower temperature. Any air conditioner man can tell you that to cool something down you don’t put cold in, but you have to take heat out! Cold is the absence of energy that causes heat.

Sin and evil are regarded the same. These things cannot exist as "things" that are independent of circumstances, but are the labels given to actions or characteristics that do not meet the goal of perfection. Now, you might say "Aha! If these things are actions that can be performed, then they must exist autonomously." That is not true. My wife recently suffered a very severe dislocation of the elbow. All of her bones were misaligned. If she could have stood the pain, she was able to bend her arm in ways that are impossible for you and I to duplicate. Our arms just cannot bend behind themselves like that. Now, just because she possessed this ability, we did not consider it an asset to be attained, but we rightly sought medical attention to put the elbow back together so it would function properly. We knew if we left it that way, there would be more detriment to her overall ability than asset.

Just like that broken arm, evil and sin are the painful results of a fall. The world and all that is in it was created perfect, but the fall of man created ramifications and consequences that we are still struggling with today. They are not abilities or goals to be achieved, but they are the terms we use to convey the idea of absence of righteousness. This is why when someone reads that God cannot lie and they try to claim that God could not be omnipotent because He lacks something, they are mistaken. The act of lying is really an act of not being able to tell the truth. When you ask why God allowed humans to have the capability for evil, you are not framing your question fairly. You might as well ask why did God create us with joints that could be broken. He did not want us to break His rules, but once we did (and every one of us has) He had to take steps to repair the state we are in.

Christianity is vital in this way. We are in a spiritual condition much more severe and dangerous than a broken arm. We are dying of an illness called sin. God showed His love to us while we were in that sinful state. He sent a cure for humanity by allowing His perfect Son to die for us so that we might live. He even made the treatment as simple as possible. All we must do is trust and rely on Jesus, believe that He died for our sins, and choose to follow Him. This way we could be freed from the effects of sin forever without losing our free will. I hope this discussion has helped you to view things in a perspective that you might not have seen before. Please let me know what you think.

http://www.comereason.org/phil_qstn/phi020.asp

 

[Hagbard Celine]

A description is a thing eh. If I paid you $100, would you mail to me a jar of 'description'?

This isn't circular logic. Here's the definition of "thing" from Dictionary.com:

thing (n.) - 1. An entity, an idea, or a quality perceived, known, or thought to have its own existence.

All ideas, qualities, perceptions, thoughts, actions, consequences, nouns, verbs, words, matter, etc. that exist in reality were put here by God. They didn't exist before God's act of creation. In the beginning there was only God and the void.

This is a simple concept man.

 

[dmp]

This isn't circular logic. Here's the definition of "thing" from Dictionary.com:

thing (n.) - 1. An entity, an idea, or a quality perceived, known, or thought to have its own existence.

All ideas, qualities, perceptions, thoughts, actions, consequences, nouns, verbs, words, matter, etc. that exist in reality were put here by God. They didn't exist before God's act of creation. In the beginning there was only God and the void.

This is a simple concept man.

You highlighted the wrong part - don't pull out of context only PART of the definition:

perceived, known, or thought to have its own existence.

'most' reasonable people don't perceive, know, or think 'description' to have its own existence.

A 'description' is NOT a 'thing'. If 'description' were a 'thing', you'd have no problem sending me a liter of 'description' via FedEx, right?

 

[Zhukov]

God is good.

God is eternal.

Evil is the absence of god/good.

Since God is eternal the descriptive concept of evil is eternal, not created by god but existing as a consequence of god's existence.

Really, I'm not even a christian and it's really not that difficult to understand. It seems to me you are just being stubborn trying to apply your idea of logic, rationality, or semantics to something most people understand as a matter of faith.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

You highlighted the wrong part - don't pull out of context only PART of the definition:

perceived, known, or thought to have its own existence.

'most' reasonable people don't perceive, know, or think 'description' to have its own existence.

A 'description' is NOT a 'thing'. If 'description' were a 'thing', you'd have no problem sending me a liter of 'description' via FedEx, right?

Wrong. I posted the definition straight from the dictionary. A "thing" is anything physical or not. "Thing" does not only mean "matter." This is really dumb dmp. The definition of "thing" is right there. Read it please.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

God is good.

God is eternal.

Evil is the absence of god/good.

Since God is eternal the descriptive concept of evil is eternal, not created by god but existing as a consequence of god's existence.

Really, I'm not even a christian and it's really not that difficult to understand. It seems to me you are just being stubborn trying to apply your idea of logic, rationality, or semantics to something most people understand as a matter of faith.

There would be no "descriptive concept of evil" if God had not created the potential for it to exist. Where's the fault in my logic?

God could have created a creation with no evil in it. Good would not exist either because there would be no opposite to compare it to. And yet, good and evil can be differentiated from each other in our reality. It would not be so if God had not made it that way.

God created the potential for "evil" or "sin" when he created the tree of knowledge and gave man curiosity.

 

[manu1959]

evil is the creation of men that turn away from moral and ethical boundries

men like these blame evil on God rather than accept responsibility for their own actions and failings as a human being

 

[dmp]

Wrong. I posted the definition straight from the dictionary. A "thing" is anything physical or not. "Thing" does not only mean "matter." This is really dumb dmp. The definition of "thing" is right there. Read it please.

try www.hop.com brother.

A 'thing' is an entity perceived, known, or thought to have its own existence.
A 'thing' is an idea perceived, known, or thought to have its own existence.
A 'thing' is a quality perceived, known, or thought to have its own existence.

A 'description' is NOT perceived, known, or thought to have its own existance

A description (gasp!) describes something which 'exists'. A description does not have it's OWN existance, but carries that of the object it describes...such as 'Good'. The 'Absense' of 'Good' is DESCRIBED as 'evil'.

 

[manu1959]

There would be no "descriptive concept of evil" if God had not created the potential for it to exist! Where's the fault in my logic?

God created man.....man created evil by turning away from God's teachings.....do not blame God for your failures.

but hey i just said this

 

[Hagbard Celine]

evil is the creation of men that turn away from moral and ethical boundries

men like these blame evil on God rather than accept responsibility for their own actions and failings as a human being

I'm no moral failure and yet my mind can produce rational, logical thoughts! What a concept!

 

[Zhukov]

There would be no "descriptive concept of evil" if God had not created the potential for it to exist. Where's the fault in my logic?

You are either not reading or not comprehending. I don't know which, but I really can't explain it anymore clearly than I have. Sorry.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

God created man in the garden of eden and his creation was perfect. Man lived in a state of perfect harmony and there was no sin. And yet, God created the tree of knowledge and the serpent, which also created the potential for evil to exist.

???

Sin would not exist if God had not created a way for it to. That's as clear as it gets. It's true that sin would not exist if man had obeyed God, but if man had obeyed and we all still lived in the garden of Eden, the potential for evil would still exist because God created the tree of knowledge. Therefore, evil would still exist, even as a concept had Adam and Eve obeyed God because the potential for someone else to disobey God's order would still exist because God created that potential.

 

[manu1959]

I'm no moral failure and yet my mind can produce rational, logical thoughts! What a concept!

then you have not created evil.....some may beg to differ that your thoughts are rational and logical.....remember one man's moron is another man's rocket scientist

 

[dmp]

my mind can produce rational, logical thoughts!

Speculation.

 

[Zhukov]

Sin would not exist if God had not created a way for it to.

I don't think they think god did create a way. He allowed a way. He left open a door.


Also you seem to be using the term 'evil' when you should be using the term 'human evil'. Unless I'm mistaken 'evil' is understood to transcend humanity, as in evil exists quite besides humanity.

'Human evil' is just what humans do if they allow 'evil' to corrupt them.

Point being, whether or not humans were good and perfect and lived in the garden, 'evil' was always there, will always be there.

Like.....this room is filled with darkness, I just need to turn off the light to see it.

Does that make sense?

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Point being, whether or not humans were good and perfect and lived in the garden, 'evil' was always there, will always be there.

Like.....this room is filled with darkness, I just need to turn off the light to see it.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, it makes perfect sense. So who created the garden and everything in it including the evil? Answer: God.

 

[manu1959]

God created man in the garden of eden and his creation was perfect. Man lived in a state of perfect harmony and there was no sin. And yet, God created the tree of knowledge and the serpent, which also created the potential for evil to exist.

???

Sin would not exist if God had not created a way for it to. That's as clear as it gets. It's true that sin would not exist if man had obeyed God, but if man had obeyed and we all still lived in the garden of Eden, the potential for evil would still exist because God created the tree of knowledge. Therefore, evil would still exist, even as a concept had Adam and Eve obeyed God because the potential for someone else to disobey God's order would still exist because God created that potential.

Man chose to ignor the moral and ethical teachings of God. Man chose evil.

Man must now live with the consequense of his choices....Man could have chosen differently.

if you teach your son not to drink and drive and you have booze in your house and he chooses to drink it and drive is it your fault or his?