Cap and trade in India. No way Jose.

[KittenKoder]

Finally got you back on track ... took you long enough. Now, factor in what is produced for the world and how much of that is used by who.

... What? I'm sorry, what?? What does that mean?? You were claiming that the US produces less Carbon Dioxide than India. It doesn't. It produces considerably more. The average American produces, on average, 20 times more than the average Indian.

What is this about "what is produced for the world and how much of that is used by who?" [I'm just asking you to explain a bit further].

You are ignoring the big picture in order to cherry pick ... typical environut behavior. How much of the products that produce this "threat" to the environment does India make compared to the other countries, then how much does each of the countries use, which should be more important than how much they make but go ahead and keep ignoring that little factoid. Factor in also the amount produced by livestock, the amount produced by simply exhaling by the humans living there, the amount that is produced by simply cooking food ... etc, etc, etc, etc ...

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Finally got you back on track ... took you long enough. Now, factor in what is produced for the world and how much of that is used by who.

... What? I'm sorry, what?? What does that mean?? You were claiming that the US produces less Carbon Dioxide than India. It doesn't. It produces considerably more. The average American produces, on average, 20 times more than the average Indian.

What is this about "what is produced for the world and how much of that is used by who?" [I'm just asking you to explain a bit further].

You are ignoring the big picture in order to cherry pick ... typical environut behavior. How much of the products that produce this "threat" to the environment does India make compared to the other countries, then how much does each of the countries use, which should be more important than how much they make but go ahead and keep ignoring that little factoid. Factor in also the amount produced by livestock, the amount produced by simply exhaling by the humans living there, the amount that is produced by simply cooking food ... etc, etc, etc, etc ...

Wow... I'm just astounded. Honestly, you should stick to "koding" kittens. Are you somehow trying to say that by calculating the BREATHS of people, we're going to arrive at the conclusion that India produces more carbon dioxide than the US as a whole? That that is going to trump the fact that in consumption of PETROLEUM, COAL, and NATURAL GAS the US out-emits India by a factor of FIVE; REGARDLESS of population?!

Look, I'm sorry, I can't keep playing this game. Since I'm the one "cherry-picking" information, why don't YOU go ahead, and get me something, ANYTHING, that will support your viewpoint? Give me one link where it is established that India produces more carbon dioxide emmissions than the US. Or give me several, get me cow emmissions, and breath emmissions, and cooking-log emmissions. We've already got the solid numbers of COAL, OIL, and GAS. And then I'll go ahead and add it up. Wouldn't that be much more helpful than you just talking endlessly out of your ass?

 

[KittenKoder]

... What? I'm sorry, what?? What does that mean?? You were claiming that the US produces less Carbon Dioxide than India. It doesn't. It produces considerably more. The average American produces, on average, 20 times more than the average Indian.

What is this about "what is produced for the world and how much of that is used by who?" [I'm just asking you to explain a bit further].

You are ignoring the big picture in order to cherry pick ... typical environut behavior. How much of the products that produce this "threat" to the environment does India make compared to the other countries, then how much does each of the countries use, which should be more important than how much they make but go ahead and keep ignoring that little factoid. Factor in also the amount produced by livestock, the amount produced by simply exhaling by the humans living there, the amount that is produced by simply cooking food ... etc, etc, etc, etc ...

Wow... I'm just astounded. Honestly, you should stick to "koding" kittens. Are you somehow trying to say that by calculating the BREATHS of people, we're going to arrive at the conclusion that India produces more carbon dioxide than the US as a whole? That that is going to trump the fact that in consumption of PETROLEUM, COAL, and NATURAL GAS the US out-emits India by a factor of FIVE; REGARDLESS of population?!

Look, I'm sorry, I can't keep playing this game. Since I'm the one "cherry-picking" information, why don't YOU go ahead, and get me something, ANYTHING, that will support your viewpoint? Give me one link where it is established that India produces more carbon dioxide emmissions than the US. Or give me several, get me cow emmissions, and breath emmissions, and cooking-log emmissions. We've already got the solid numbers of COAL, OIL, and GAS. And then I'll go ahead and add it up. Wouldn't that be much more helpful than you just talking endlessly out of your ass?

You are right, none of those who think they are for "saving the planet" can keep up, that's why it's so easy to fool you into following the Church of Gore.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

You are right, none of those who think they are for "saving the planet" can keep up, that's why it's so easy to fool you into following the Church of Gore.

You are by far, bar-none, the dumbest fucking **** on this entire board.

 

[KittenKoder]

You are right, none of those who think they are for "saving the planet" can keep up, that's why it's so easy to fool you into following the Church of Gore.

You are by far, bar-none, the dumbest fucking **** on this entire board.

Oh ... the last resort of the ill-informed. Why is it that every time someone asks for the whole story morons resort to name calling?

The true question I want to know is this, can you justify destroying the world economy for less than 1% change in the atmospheric content? Also, would you sacrifice all your modern conveniences, that includes food, home, car, computer, lights, heat ... everything ... just for a hunch?

 

[Epsilon Delta]

You are right, none of those who think they are for "saving the planet" can keep up, that's why it's so easy to fool you into following the Church of Gore.

You are by far, bar-none, the dumbest fucking **** on this entire board.

Oh ... the last resort of the ill-informed. Why is it that every time someone asks for the whole story morons resort to name calling?

The true question I want to know is this, can you justify destroying the world economy for less than 1% change in the atmospheric content? Also, would you sacrifice all your modern conveniences, that includes food, home, car, computer, lights, heat ... everything ... just for a hunch?

Yeah, go ahead and totally de-rail the conversation. Why should I answer ANYTHING you say when you refuse to answer ANYTHING I say? I told you: If you have any evidence that India produces more carbon dioxide than the US, go ahead. Make my day. You are the one who doubted that CORRECT fact, that 20 indians produce as much CO2 emissions as 1 American. THAT is what I posted on this thread that you so callously derided. If you don't have evidence against that claim, I suggest that you keep your fucking mouth shut.

As for "Ill-Infomed"? I'm truly sorry, but you're the one who, seeing the graph, thought India produced more CO2 than the US. That is a totally ridiculous claim!! If anyone is ill-informed, it's YOU!! So ill-informed that you could not even find ANYTHING to say to my request for your evidence other than calling me a "fool of the church of gore," because that's the only thing you can respond with, not with facts, but by cowing this thread to your familiar, idiotic, and prepackaged answers. This conversation had nothing to do with Gore, it has to do with the simple fact I've already mentioned. I have not even MENTIONED the word climate change in this entire discussion. I'm not even in fucking favour of cap-and-trade.

If ANYBODY asked for the whole story, it was ME, not you: I asked you to please provide YOUR evidence on HOW India produces more CO2 than the US, and YOU resort to name-calling and talking about "the church of gore". You haven't asked me for any whole story. If you have better information, if you have more information, I'm all ears. Show me. I want to learn.

But you don't, you have nothing, because you're an idiot.

 

[KittenKoder]

You are by far, bar-none, the dumbest fucking **** on this entire board.

Oh ... the last resort of the ill-informed. Why is it that every time someone asks for the whole story morons resort to name calling?

The true question I want to know is this, can you justify destroying the world economy for less than 1% change in the atmospheric content? Also, would you sacrifice all your modern conveniences, that includes food, home, car, computer, lights, heat ... everything ... just for a hunch?

Yeah, go ahead and totally de-rail the conversation. Why should I answer ANYTHING you say when you refuse to answer ANYTHING I say? I told you: If you have any evidence that India produces more carbon dioxide than the US, go ahead. Make my day. You are the one who doubted that CORRECT fact, that 20 indians produce as much CO2 emissions as 1 American. THAT is what I posted on this thread that you so callously derided. If you don't have evidence against that claim, I suggest that you keep your fucking mouth shut.

As for "Ill-Infomed"? I'm truly sorry, but you're the one who, seeing the graph, thought India produced more CO2 than the US. That is a totally ridiculous claim!! If anyone is ill-informed, it's YOU!! So ill-informed that you could not even find ANYTHING to say to my request for your evidence other than calling me a "fool of the church of gore," because that's the only thing you can respond with, not with facts, but by cowing this thread to your familiar, idiotic, and prepackaged answers. This conversation had nothing to do with Gore, it has to do with the simple fact I've already mentioned. I have not even MENTIONED the word climate change in this entire discussion. I'm not even in fucking favour of cap-and-trade.

If ANYBODY asked for the whole story, it was ME, not you: I asked you to please provide YOUR evidence on HOW India produces more CO2 than the US, and YOU resort to name-calling and talking about "the church of gore". You haven't asked me for any whole story. If you have better information, if you have more information, I'm all ears. Show me. I want to learn.

But you don't, you have nothing, because you're an idiot.

That's a lot of projection ... and only a few real facts. I did doubt your stance, of course, I doubt all ill-informed stances. I answered the questions that were important, you missed the connections, that's all. The whole story is something your sources will never offer, which was the point. Environut sites, ie. the "Church of Gore", only offer a fraction of the information that is needed for truly informed actions. Now, you want to know why India isn't going to follow this bullshit ... it's because they know it's all based on bad or no information and science. One little fact you seem to ignore, as do those who think that India is some demon, is that India is making huge strides in technology and science. Most of our advancements are because of India.

Now, here's the other point you conveniently ignored, you are talking about less than .1% of the atmosphere being effected, and even if you drop all your modern conveniences you will only change how much we put out by about 10% ... at most ... due to the simple fact that we can't avoid it. Cooking on an open fire puts more carbon out than a gas stove does, hunting our own food instead of processing it would completely eradicate all other life, without sewer systems (which a ton of carbon is produced in making) we would completely ruin all land, without land fills trash would be everywhere, and recycling only increases the carbon output. So really, unless you are willing to sacrifice everything, STFU ... no environmentalist gives a damn about saving the planet in reality, otherwise they wouldn't use anything.

 

[ba1614]

It's as smart for India not to sign on as it is stupid for America to pass it.
I can't think of a worse time to pass this than during a period of(hopefully) economic recovery.

 

[concept]

Even India is smart enough not to pass this economy destroying cap and trade crap.

How stupid are the liberals in this country?

 

[Epsilon Delta]

That's a lot of projection ... and only a few real facts.

As opposed to your posts, which are all projection, and no facts.

I did doubt your stance, of course, I doubt all ill-informed stances.

You continue to be a total idiot: My statement is not a "stance". It isn't "my stance" that Indians emit 1/20th of the emissions Americans do. That isn't an opinion. That is simply the reality. The average Indian emits 1/20th of the emissions of an average american. I showed you information that backs this point. If you have no links, no facts, no sources, no figures to counter this, then you can shut your face. How's that?

I answered the questions that were important, you missed the connections, that's all. The whole story is something your sources will never offer, which was the point. Environut sites, ie. the "Church of Gore", only offer a fraction of the information that is needed for truly informed actions.

TALK ABOUT PROJECTION: I don't understand your fascination with this "Gore" character. I dont understand why you are just SO EAGER to talk about this "Gore" person. I don't know who informed you that I give one flying shit about "Gore". I don't really know much about this "Gore," so I won't comment on him. I certainly have made no mention of a "Gore" in this thread or any other I remember in recent memory, so please, take that discussion up with someone else.

Other than that, it is obvious by this statement that you are an idiot. I quote the Energy Information Administration, not "The Church of Gore," whatever the fuck that is. But wait, you obviously have NO idea what the EIA is. Let me quote from your favourite website:

The United States Energy Information Administration (EIA), created by Congress in 1977, is the independent statistical agency within the U.S. Department of Energy. EIA's mission is to provide policy-independent data, forecasts, and analyses to promote sound policy making, efficient markets, and public understanding regarding energy and its interaction with the economy and the environment.

The agency collects data on energy reserves, production, consumption, distribution, prices, technology, and related international, economic, and financial matters. This information is disseminated as policy-independent data, forecasts, and analyses. EIA publishes long- and short-term energy forecasts. EIA programs cover data on coal, petroleum, natural gas, electric, renewable and nuclear energy.

Feel free to look it up on the DOE website though, if you don't believe wikipedia. In any case, you continue to be an idiot: I know that my sources don't offer your point of view. That is why I ask for your sources. Isn't that kinda obvious, dipshit? The problem here isn't "my sources," it's yours: They don't fucking exist. You have no sources.

Now, you want to know why India isn't going to follow this bullshit ... it's because they know it's all based on bad or no information and science. One little fact you seem to ignore, as do those who think that India is some demon, is that India is making huge strides in technology and science. Most of our advancements are because of India.

TALK ABOUT PROJECTION: I have never, nor will ever, think of any country as "a demon." Stop projecting. Never once did I say that. Never once have I heard anyone say that, except you. I bet India is a wonderful place [except for the poverty], and I know many Indians, and I think they're wonderful people. Let's focus on the facts and our WORDS, and not on your absolutely IDIOTIC pre-concieved notions.

TALK ABOUT PROJECTION: Care to source where you heard that THAT'S the reason Indians aren't going along with it? Maybe a news article? Maybe you're friends with the Environment Minister or the President? Because, you know, AS THE ARTICLE IN THE OP STATES:

“There is simply no case for the pressure that we, who have been among the lowest emissions per capita, face to actually reduce emissions,” Jairam Ramesh said at a meeting today with Clinton

Whoops. I guess he agrees with my "stance" on this issue.

India is widely viewed as an indispensable partner on climate change, along with China and Brazil. Those three countries and others in the developing world argue that the industrial world produced most of the harmful gases in recent decades and should bear the costs of fixing the problem.

The Associated Press: India stands firm against binding emissions limits

Well, what about that: they think those are "harmful gasses," that are produced MORE by the developed world. What about that. Who would've thunk: Rich countries' populations can spend MORE energy!!! What a HUGE breakthrough!!! Maybe they're also missinformed and think that 20 indians emit as much carbon as 1 american.

[The Negotiator] says that in a fair deal, the industrialized nations would therefore have to pay the full costs of technology and capacity building of reducing emissions in the developing world.

Emission compromise at cost of development? - Global Warming - Environment - NEWS - The Times of India

Reducing emissions??? Now why would ANYONE want to do that??

Now, here's the other point you conveniently ignored, you are talking about less than .1% of the atmosphere being effected,

TALK ABOUT PROJECTION: "I'm" not talking about 0.1% of anything. I'm talking about India's carbon emissions and the US's, as it relates to the OP. The US produces more, India, who's average person consumes 1/20th of the average american, sees no reason to curb its emissions, considering THEIR AVERAGE PERSON CONSUMES 1/20th OF WHAT AN AMERICAN DOES.

and even if you drop all your modern conveniences you will only change how much we put out by about 10% ... at most ...

TALK ABOUT PROJECTION: Nobody said we have to do that.

And wait, "by about 10%"?? So now you're an authority on the subject? Where'd you get the PhD?? Let's see some sources, bitch.

due to the simple fact that we can't avoid it. Cooking on an open fire puts more carbon out than a gas stove does, hunting our own food instead of processing it would completely eradicate all other life, without sewer systems (which a ton of carbon is produced in making) we would completely ruin all land, without land fills trash would be everywhere, and recycling only increases the carbon output. So really, unless you are willing to sacrifice everything, STFU ... no environmentalist gives a damn about saving the planet in reality, otherwise they wouldn't use anything.

Oh my god, look at that GIGANTIC strawman!!! It's tearing down BUILDINGS for christ sakes. I'm sorry, but I don't recall ever advocating open-fire cooking. I don't recall ever advocating hunting, jeez, I don't like hunting at all. I certainly don't advocate against sewers. Fuck, I don't recall ANYONE ever advocating against sewers.

See, this entire paragraph is worthless: it has no relation to anything on this thread. You're just a silly idiot who'se shoving absolutely unrelated and idiotic assumptions here, continually exposing yourself more and more to really how... sad and pathetic you are. I just can't waste any more time on this. My advice is that you read more often and, you know, the internet exists. Source shit. Good luck.

 

[KittenKoder]

*yawn* You are still reciting and repeating ... parroting as it is commonly called. Try, just once, to look at the whole picture ... you'd be amazed at how much they do not tell you.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

I accept your capitulation.

 

[twogreen2c]

The U.S. will probably pass the cap and trade because you have Al Gore, Goldman Sachs, GE and probably a host of other powerful people who have big money invested in carbon credits. These folks paid off Obama and Congress. They stand to make billions of $$$ off of this scam.

 

[editec]

It's as smart for India not to sign on as it is stupid for America to pass it.

True, assuming that cap and trade is a wasted effort

I can't think of a worse time to pass this than during a period of(hopefully) economic recovery.

Agreed.

But I have the feeling that some people are going to get very rich if it passes, too.

It is, after all, a way of granting environmental destruction indulgences...indulgences that the government gets to grant and that industries must pay for.

One can easily see how this could become a major source of income for some folks, that the rest of us pay and pay and pay for.

 

[KittenKoder]

I accept your capitulation.

You are confusing boredom with concession?

 

[ba1614]

It's as smart for India not to sign on as it is stupid for America to pass it.

True, assuming that cap and trade is a wasted effort

I can't think of a worse time to pass this than during a period of(hopefully) economic recovery.

Agreed.

But I have the feeling that some people are going to get very rich if it passes, too.

It is, after all, a way of granting environmental destruction indulgences...indulgences that the government gets to grant and that industries must pay for.

One can easily see how this could become a major source of income for some folks, that the rest of us pay and pay and pay for.

I don't think there is any doubt it will be a HUGE source of income for these few folks.
This administration is more than willing to take over other private entities, why wouldn't they administer this themselves and re-invest those monies into renewable energy?

Of course it is Obama supporters who are heavily invested in this racket and will be the ones with the financial windfall.

 

[joeyc]

Cap and trade? It's as if we're not even in a recession!

 

[DiveCon]

Okay ... you embarrassed yourself anyhow. Learn how to read a graph please ...

NO WAY!!!!! Pleeeeeease tell me you're joking. PLEASE!!! I can barely even FATHOM this!!!! You think that the India's carbon emmissions on that graph are EVERYTHING underneath the orange line???

PLEASE, KK, tell me you're joking. Tell me that nobody is this stupid.

you are such a fucking liar
that graph showed what they output at the toip and means they did that much OVER the ones under them
you fucking moron

 

[DiveCon]

Look, just because I feel bad for you, I'll do you a favour and teach you how to read the graph:

The X axis tracks TOTAL CARBON EMISSIONS of the WORLD. Get it? That is why there are different color bars. Each color bar is stuck on top of another to represent the world total. Each region/country on the opposite side of the X-axis only accounts for the the amount of emissions contained within its color, not everything underneath it. The way you're reading the graph would mean that every other country/region on the graph produces more emissions than the US, which is, well, laughable. And laughable is what happens when you don't pay attention, which I'm sure you've noticed (this is why your previous response was pathetic). Tell me, you think that Australia and New Zealand produce more carbon emissions than the US?? You think South Korea produces 7,000 yearly emissions when the US produces 5,000??

See, now YOU know how to read a graph, and it might save you a whole heap of embarrassment in the future, because now you won't look like an idiot next time that graph shows up.

then they would have been BELOW the US on the chart you moron

 

[Maple]

Of course not, thier economies are growning at a much faster rate than ours is, why would they stiffle that growth by a nonsense policy. Over the last 11 years we have been in a cooling pattern, while co2 emmisions have increased. Seems Obama and Al Gore have some splanin to do.