Bring Back the Draft?

[Wry Catcher]

The number one mandate from the U.S. Constitution is national defense. I have no problem with a larger part of my tax dollar going toward that end, but social security, Medicare and Medicaid, and other entitlements take close to equal amounts.

Post #8 above labeled national security as an entitlement that consumed 50 percent of tax dollars and the Gunny rightly disputed that. Regardless of the social, ideological, or political arguments for a draft, none is needed at this time. I agree with the Gunny also where he stated we need even more military assets. The U.S. military is stretched way too thin and still will be when we get back to routine deployment cycles.

In retrospect I doubt I would have enlisted in the Navy in 1967 had there not been a draft. I can't respond to the argument that draftees were somehow lesser than RA personnel but I can attest to the fact that those I served with crossed all ideological, eduational, racial, religious, intellectual, regional, political, etc. lines - and all of us had enlisted.

Suggesting RA enlistees are somehow better than those conscripted seems unlikely. Again I can only discuss my experience and in 1967 opinions varied and heated arguments developed when global politics was discussed. No mutiny occurred at my duty stations or at sea but I suspect most of my shipmates were split on the wisdom of what we were doing in Vietnam.

 

[old navy]

The number one mandate from the U.S. Constitution is national defense. I have no problem with a larger part of my tax dollar going toward that end, but social security, Medicare and Medicaid, and other entitlements take close to equal amounts.

Post #8 above labeled national security as an entitlement that consumed 50 percent of tax dollars and the Gunny rightly disputed that. Regardless of the social, ideological, or political arguments for a draft, none is needed at this time. I agree with the Gunny also where he stated we need even more military assets. The U.S. military is stretched way too thin and still will be when we get back to routine deployment cycles.

In retrospect I doubt I would have enlisted in the Navy in 1967 had there not been a draft. I can't respond to the argument that draftees were somehow lesser than RA personnel but I can attest to the fact that those I served with crossed all ideological, eduational, racial, religious, intellectual, regional, political, etc. lines - and all of us had enlisted.

Suggesting RA enlistees are somehow better than those conscripted seems unlikely. Again I can only discuss my experience and in 1967 opinions varied and heated arguments developed when global politics was discussed. No mutiny occurred at my duty stations or at sea but I suspect most of my shipmates were split on the wisdom of what we were doing in Vietnam.

For the record, I have never written on any thread on the quality of draftees vs. volunteer enlistees. My only related comment was asking the OP if the suicide rate would be higher among draftees.

 

[Mad Scientist]

Obama should reinstate the draft before the election.

Do you have a reason for the draft or any useful contribution to the topic?

Plus, Obama does not have the authority or the balls to institute anything.

You've never heard of "Presidential Executive Orders"?

 

[Borillar]

"General Stanley A. McChrystal seems to think it's only fair:

"'I think we ought to have a draft. I think if a nation goes to war, it shouldn’t be solely be represented by a professional force, because it gets to be unrepresentative of the population,' McChrystal said at a late-night event June 29 at the 2012 Aspen Ideas Festival. 'I think if a nation goes to war, every town, every city needs to be at risk. You make that decision and everybody has skin in the game.'”

There seems to be at least one prominent leftie who thinks its worth considering:

"It’s certainly true that the volunteer army is a mess. Suicides are surging among the troops. According to AP, the 154 suicides for active duty troops in the first 155 days of the year far outdistance the US forces killed in Afghanistan."

Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

Would a draft army discourage the next commander-in-chief from going to war?

I think the idea of bringing back the draft is abhorrent. It is nothing less than slavery. If the country can't save itself through the efforts of the volunteer service of its own free people, it isn't worth saving.

If the volunteer Army is a mess, it is likely because of servicemen having to go through multiple deployments into hellholes we shouldn't be involved in in the first place - like Iraq. There should be a trust between the soldiers and their country that they won't be asked to put their lives on the line for useless, pointless endeavors. If the country is actually under attack as with Pearl Harbor or 9/11, there will be no shortage of volunteers.

 

[High_Gravity]

McChrystal brings up good points for discussion. I believe the draft should be used to raise an army when numbers beyond current numbers are needed. The end-strength numbers are set by the congress and today we have people lined up for miles trying to join all branches in both officer and enlisted programs.

During the height of Iraq and A'stan, troops were doing back-tp-back tours, three and four or more tours, and the equipment was getting worn and torn as well. The stressors from combat operations are starting to lessen but the country will be caring for broken limbs and minds for many years. The last study I saw showed that half the personnel who committed suicide in the Army had not even seen combat. Would drafted Soldiers commit suicide at a lesser rate?

No draftees would not be less likely to commit suicide and the left does not want the draft to "help" the military. They believe a draft will prevent us from waging war when needed and provide a means to mount Viet Nam era protests if we do.

We have zero need for a draft. What we need is for an increase in the size of the military. We need about 60 more Army combat Brigades and a larger Navy and Airforce. We need more ships and modern aircraft. And all of that is doable with out a draft.

Daftees would lower the moral and fighting ability of the military. It would encourage a leftist Congress to lower pay and allowances. It would wreck what we have now.

Assuming no end strength increases it would also necessitate a round of forced removals of current career military damaging the Officer and NCO corps which is an even worse event.

You pretty much nailed it, I support a bigger Military as well.

 

[Borillar]

McChrystal brings up good points for discussion. I believe the draft should be used to raise an army when numbers beyond current numbers are needed. The end-strength numbers are set by the congress and today we have people lined up for miles trying to join all branches in both officer and enlisted programs.

During the height of Iraq and A'stan, troops were doing back-tp-back tours, three and four or more tours, and the equipment was getting worn and torn as well. The stressors from combat operations are starting to lessen but the country will be caring for broken limbs and minds for many years. The last study I saw showed that half the personnel who committed suicide in the Army had not even seen combat. Would drafted Soldiers commit suicide at a lesser rate?

No draftees would not be less likely to commit suicide and the left does not want the draft to "help" the military. They believe a draft will prevent us from waging war when needed and provide a means to mount Viet Nam era protests if we do.

We have zero need for a draft. What we need is for an increase in the size of the military. We need about 60 more Army combat Brigades and a larger Navy and Airforce. We need more ships and modern aircraft. And all of that is doable with out a draft.

Daftees would lower the moral and fighting ability of the military. It would encourage a leftist Congress to lower pay and allowances. It would wreck what we have now.

Assuming no end strength increases it would also necessitate a round of forced removals of current career military damaging the Officer and NCO corps which is an even worse event.

You pretty much nailed it, I support a bigger Military as well.

"No draftees would not be less likely to commit suicide and the left does not want the draft to "help" the military. They believe a draft will prevent us from waging war when needed and provide a means to mount Viet Nam era protests if we do."

More like politicians would be less likely to embroil our country in needless wars of choice and other military adventurism with their own kids' lives on the line. I can see some logic in that belief, but disagree entirely on the idea of bringing the draft back. Involuntary servitude is not the American way.

"You pretty much nailed it, I support a bigger Military as well."

What is the threat the country is facing that would necessitate cold war force levels? All these additional ships, aircraft, tanks, bombs, guns, ammunition, and personnel cost a huge pile of money. As the right is fond of pointing out (at least when the president is a Democrat), we are out of money.

I would agree that the forces we do have should be modernized. It's ridiculous that we are still using ancient B-52's, and many of our front line fleet ships were built in the 70's. But many programs are just bottomless funding pits that don't yield many workable solutions - the V22 Osprey, F-22, B-2 stealth bomber come to mind.

 

[High_Gravity]

No draftees would not be less likely to commit suicide and the left does not want the draft to "help" the military. They believe a draft will prevent us from waging war when needed and provide a means to mount Viet Nam era protests if we do.

We have zero need for a draft. What we need is for an increase in the size of the military. We need about 60 more Army combat Brigades and a larger Navy and Airforce. We need more ships and modern aircraft. And all of that is doable with out a draft.

Daftees would lower the moral and fighting ability of the military. It would encourage a leftist Congress to lower pay and allowances. It would wreck what we have now.

Assuming no end strength increases it would also necessitate a round of forced removals of current career military damaging the Officer and NCO corps which is an even worse event.

You pretty much nailed it, I support a bigger Military as well.

"No draftees would not be less likely to commit suicide and the left does not want the draft to "help" the military. They believe a draft will prevent us from waging war when needed and provide a means to mount Viet Nam era protests if we do."

More like politicians would be less likely to embroil our country in needless wars of choice and other military adventurism with their own kids' lives on the line. I can see some logic in that belief, but disagree entirely on the idea of bringing the draft back. Involuntary servitude is not the American way.

"You pretty much nailed it, I support a bigger Military as well."

What is the threat the country is facing that would necessitate cold war force levels? All these additional ships, aircraft, tanks, bombs, guns, ammunition, and personnel cost a huge pile of money. As the right is fond of pointing out (at least when the president is a Democrat), we are out of money.

I would agree that the forces we do have should be modernized. It's ridiculous that we are still using ancient B-52's, and many of our front line fleet ships were built in the 70's. But many programs are just bottomless funding pits that don't yield many workable solutions - the V22 Osprey, F-22, B-2 stealth bomber come to mind.

We have people right now on their 5th, 6th, even 7th combat deployment. I support a bigger Military so we don't have to keep sending the same people over there over and over again burning them out.

 

[old navy]

yep, we need to increase the end-strength numbers instead of decreasing them. As to the B-52 comment above, that airframe has been one of this nation's best bargains. It has been modernized and modified for generations and still delivers efficiently and effectively. I saw an interview a couple of months ago with three generations of B-52 pilots and crewmen. It was very inspiring and motivating. The Stratofortress is one of my favoritve pieces of military gear.

 

[georgephillip]

"General Stanley A. McChrystal seems to think it's only fair:

"'I think we ought to have a draft. I think if a nation goes to war, it shouldn’t be solely be represented by a professional force, because it gets to be unrepresentative of the population,' McChrystal said at a late-night event June 29 at the 2012 Aspen Ideas Festival. 'I think if a nation goes to war, every town, every city needs to be at risk. You make that decision and everybody has skin in the game.'”

There seems to be at least one prominent leftie who thinks its worth considering:

"It’s certainly true that the volunteer army is a mess. Suicides are surging among the troops. According to AP, the 154 suicides for active duty troops in the first 155 days of the year far outdistance the US forces killed in Afghanistan."

Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

Would a draft army discourage the next commander-in-chief from going to war?

I think the idea of bringing back the draft is abhorrent. It is nothing less than slavery. If the country can't save itself through the efforts of the volunteer service of its own free people, it isn't worth saving.

If the volunteer Army is a mess, it is likely because of servicemen having to go through multiple deployments into hellholes we shouldn't be involved in in the first place - like Iraq. There should be a trust between the soldiers and their country that they won't be asked to put their lives on the line for useless, pointless endeavors. If the country is actually under attack as with Pearl Harbor or 9/11, there will be no shortage of volunteers.

It's hard for me to imagine any trust between service members and their country existing as long as wars are waged for profit. When wars like the ones in Afghanistan and Iraq are fought with borrowed money, all the useless, pointless endeavors get passed on to the next generation's children who may well find themselves in prison if they protest.

Where's Smedley Butler when we really need him?

THREE TITLES [3] for the PRICE OF ONE.

 

[NLT]

Dont need to reinstate the draft...with obammy's economy youngster's will be signing up in droves.

 

[georgephillip]

Obama's just the latest corporate tool in the White House.
Do you think Romney is likely to reduce "defense" spending?

 

[Borillar]

yep, we need to increase the end-strength numbers instead of decreasing them. As to the B-52 comment above, that airframe has been one of this nation's best bargains. It has been modernized and modified for generations and still delivers efficiently and effectively. I saw an interview a couple of months ago with three generations of B-52 pilots and crewmen. It was very inspiring and motivating. The Stratofortress is one of my favoritve pieces of military gear.

I certainly can't dispute that the B-52 has been very successful and the American people really got their moneys worth out of it. But come on... the thing came out in the 1950's. That sort of length of service is ridiculously long. Would you want to fly a 50+ year old plane? Time for something new that doesn't cost a billion dollars apiece.

 

[The Professor]

The best argument I have ever heard against the draft was written by Ayn Rand:

“Politically, the draft is clearly unconstitutional. No amount of rationalization, neither by the Supreme Court nor by private individuals, can alter the fact that it represents 'involuntary servitude.'

“A volunteer army is the only proper, moral - and practical - way to defend a free country. Should a man volunteer to fight, if his country is attacked? Yes - if he values his own rights and freedom. A free (or even semi-free) country has never lacked volunteers in the face of foreign aggression. Many military authorities have testified that a volunteer army - an army of men who know what they are fighting for and why - is the best, most effective army, and that a drafted one is the least effective.

“It is often asked, 'But what if a country cannot find a sufficient number of volunteers?' Even so, this would not give the rest of the population a right to the lives of the country’s young men. But, in fact, the lack of volunteers occurs for two reasons: (1) If a country is demoralized by a corrupt, authoritarian government, its citizens will not volunteer to defend it. But neither will they fight for long, if drafted. For example, observe the literal disintegration of the Czarist Russian army in World War l. (2) If a country’s government undertakes to fight a war for some reason other than self-defense for a purpose which the citizens neither share nor understand, it will not find many volunteers. Thus a volunteer army is on of the best protectors of peace, not only against foreign aggression, but also against any warlike ideologies or projects on the part of a country’s own government.

“Not many men would volunteer for such wars as Korea or Viet Nam. Without the power to draft, the makers of our foreign policy would not be able to embark on adventures of that kind. This is one of the best practical reasons for the abolition of the draft."

From The Ayn Rand Lexicon, Edited by Harry Binswanger, pp 128-129.

Now, as for those flag waiving, anthem singing, America-is-always-right pseudo patriots who might argue that I have an obligation to go to war because of all my country has done for me, I will only say, Huh???

My country has given me nothing. Everything I have, I earned. I have feed, clothed, sheltered and otherwise provided for my family by my own efforts, with no help from the government. Further, I have paid my fair share of the cost of bridges, roads and other infrastructure, and for the financing of all government institutions. If anything, I have paid far in excess of the value of the services rendered by my country. I owe my country nothing. In fact, my country owes me. Big time! But even if I did owe my country something, I do not and never will owe it my life.

I served my country once, a long, long time ago but if I were a young man again, I would not enlist; at least not until the last scoundrel is removed from public office and the awful stench of political corruption is gone from the land.

The right to life is the greatest right of all and without it all other rights are meaningless. If the government has the power to force you to put your life at risk for whatever cause the government deems proper, you are nothing but a slave.

Those super nationalists who believe in the doctrine of “my country, right or wrong” do not need a draft. Only an overwhelming fear of death will deter these arrogant, brainwashed, flag-waving medal seekers from service. Likewise, those who see a cause so compelling and worthy that they are willing to fight to the death for it do not require a draft to gain their service. A good and noble cause will elicit sufficient volunteers. Therefore, the purpose of the draft is simply to recruit cowards and conscientious objectors. Frankly, I would prefer to serve in a military unit which had neither.

Fuck the draft.

For the record, I enlisted in the Marine Corps in 1956 just two days past my 17th birthday. Since my birthday was on a Sunday, I took the tests on Monday and was sworn in on Tuesday. The world was different then, a lot different.

 

[georgephillip]

What convinced you to enlist?
Jobs were more plentiful and easier to find in those days.(I turned 17 in 1964)
Do you come from a military family?
Do you ever regret your decision to enlist?

Full disclosure: I spent 10 days in the USAF in 1966 before lying about back pain in order to get a medical discharge. I can't justify the ethics of my behavior, but, on the other hand, I would have never "volunteered" for the Air Force without the draft hanging over my head.

Too late now...

 

[SayMyName]

Until a manpower shortage takes place, and we are in dire straits militarily, we should not bring back the draft. Our military is powerful enough at this time to take on most scenarios with the professional army that is currently in place.

 

[High_Gravity]

yep, we need to increase the end-strength numbers instead of decreasing them. As to the B-52 comment above, that airframe has been one of this nation's best bargains. It has been modernized and modified for generations and still delivers efficiently and effectively. I saw an interview a couple of months ago with three generations of B-52 pilots and crewmen. It was very inspiring and motivating. The Stratofortress is one of my favoritve pieces of military gear.

Shit when I was in the Military back in 2007 the Air Force had a force shaping program going on where they were letting people out early and getting rid of people to gut certain AFSC's, I never understood how they could do that while we were fighting 2 wars.

 

[High_Gravity]

Dont need to reinstate the draft...with obammy's economy youngster's will be signing up in droves.

Not necessarily, sadly these kids would rather stay at home with momma rather than serve their country.

 

[old navy]

yep, we need to increase the end-strength numbers instead of decreasing them. As to the B-52 comment above, that airframe has been one of this nation's best bargains. It has been modernized and modified for generations and still delivers efficiently and effectively. I saw an interview a couple of months ago with three generations of B-52 pilots and crewmen. It was very inspiring and motivating. The Stratofortress is one of my favoritve pieces of military gear.

Shit when I was in the Military back in 2007 the Air Force had a force shaping program going on where they were letting people out early and getting rid of people to gut certain AFSC's, I never understood how they could do that while we were fighting 2 wars.

The Pentagon works in mysterious ways. My wife got out after 13 years to spend more time with our kids. Two years later during the Clinton draw-down, they offered 15 year retirements.

 

[georgephillip]

"Ask your average American whether the defense budget should go up or down in 2013, and by how much, and they’ll tell you to cut spending by a whopping 18 percent.

"Ask your average member of Congress the same question, and no matter which party they’re from, you’ll likely hear that defense spending should barely budge from where it is right now..."

"On average... the public wants $103.5 billion in defense budget cuts, or 18 percent of the current budget; Republicans want $74 billion cut, on average, Democrats want a $124.4 billion cut, and independents want a $112.2 billion reduction.

"Participants evaluated 87 percent of defense discretionary spending, so their cuts might even be higher if the entire defense budget were covered."

Americans want to slash defense spending, but Washington isn’t listening - The Washington Post

How would an 18% cut in defense spending affect the US unemployment rate?

 

[old navy]

How would an 18% cut in defense spending affect the US unemployment rate?

There would be an up-tick in the unemployment rate with an 18 percent cut in defense spending, but, my concern would be the effect on readiness (both operational and materiel<I spelled it right, look it up), innovation, and new construction.

Retiree and veteran's benefits erosion has been occuring and the president wants to cut deeper. That must stop. We may not need a military 100 times larger and more expensive than the next 10 countries combined but maybe 50 or 60 times. The citizenry must decide what their military's mission and abilities are and vote in those who will put those desires in effect.

There is plenty of waste in DOD and room for meaningful cuts. One place of course is government contractors. The R&D, approval, and construction process is too long and costly. Conversely, outside companies are vital to the security of the nation. The federal hiring process is bogged down with requirements that does not always put the best candidate in the job. My daughter's future husband for example runs a program at a DC area military base and has government co-workers who cannot do half of what their resume said they could do. He and his fellow contractors are needed to get done what the GS employees are actually hired to do.

With the military deployment cycle getting back to normal and combat operations coming to a close, the cost of doing DOD business will go down. This is not a time to let down and draw down because there will be a need for decades to come for the USA to be the strongest leader in the free world.