Ask a Gay Guy - Objective Dialog

[Amelia]

If homosexuality was genetic every single pair of identical twins would be either straight/straight or gay/gay, they aren't. That means that it is not just like skin color, eye color, height, and facial features, all of which are clearly genetic and manifest identically in identical twins.

That does not mean I am saying being homosexual is abnormal, anymore than being a Hindu is abnormal.

I don't think identical twins are as identical as you think they are. Height in particular comes to mind as a trait where variation can be expected.

Again, the notion of genetic predisposition is key. A genetic predisposition doesn't guarantee a trait will be manifest. It's just a contributor which other conditions could trigger or suppress.

Identical twins have identical genes. Height can change as a result of one twin experiencing a childhood illness that affects development, but that would make homosexuality a side affect of a disease. which I am pretty sure is not your position.

It could be the result of a disease. Yet it wouldn't have to be for the general principle to apply. Height can be different based on other things, including diet and physical activity.

Our genes do not guarantee the course of our physical development. Many different things can cause different outcomes. Identical twins can be very different from the womb. And they can be affected differently by the people around them and other things in their environments.

Hormones in the womb could affect the two developing fetuses differently.

In any case, identical twins are not necessarily as identical as you have suggested and genetic predisposition is not black and white.

 

[MaxCha]

You should pick a better source.

Box Turtle Bulletin » Today In History: APA Removes Homosexuality from List of Mental Disorders

FYI, there is conclusive evidence that homosexuality is not genetic.

Ok. If the largest psychological organization in the world is not a good source, then what is?

And the WHOLE POINT of this thread was for people like you to post the "conclusive data."

Go on, leave a link. You didn't just make that up, did you?

 

[MaxCha]

Now tell me why you don't sound like as big of an asshole as that? Because as stupid and embarressing as I think it is to be a muslim, I haven't once insulted you for it, nor do I wish to forbid Islam in the US.

The opinion of a fudge packer / carpet muncher (don't know what kind of homo your are) about Islam or muslims doesn't mean squat to me.

The article you referenced basically says they feel there is evidence for a homo gene but they don't know exactly where it's located.

Not must substance there; just wishful thinking for the radical gay loons to grasp on to.

Ok. I hope Allah doesn't strike me down far saying he's a faggot. hahaha

Worship a dish rag all you want, I won't try stop you. But if that's your evidence, then the dish rag doesn't do much except probably make good toilet paper.

 

[BDBoop]

Oh really?

Biology and sexual orientation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Odd how gio can write of the genetic predisposition toward addiction, not everyone accepts alcohol & drug addiction have genetic links. Perhaps addicts just have low morals. And of course schizophrenia is caused by mean mothers......

For the hetero "choice" crowd: When did you CHOOSE to be heterosexual?

Summer of 1968, why do you ask?

Did you really give being homosexual a fair shake? No pun intended.

 

[BDBoop]

Now tell me why you don't sound like as big of an asshole as that? Because as stupid and embarressing as I think it is to be a muslim, I haven't once insulted you for it, nor do I wish to forbid Islam in the US.

The opinion of a fudge packer / carpet muncher (don't know what kind of homo your are) about Islam or muslims doesn't mean squat to me.

The article you referenced basically says they feel there is evidence for a homo gene but they don't know exactly where it's located.

Not must substance there; just wishful thinking for the radical gay loons to grasp on to.

Ok. I hope Allah doesn't strike me down far saying he's a faggot. hahaha

You SO wouldn't be the first.

 

[eots]

Not completely genetic...but kindly explain why if one identical twin is gay, there is about a 50% chance that the other one is.....even if they are raised apart.

I don't have to explain anything. If it was genetic in origin both twins would be gay no matter what. That is conclusive proof that it isn't genetic, and ends any debate about it on that level.

Peach already mentioned this, but it bears repeating: your logic would rule out genetics being a contributor to schizophrenia, etc.


Do you reject the notion of genetic predisposition for other traits? Is it always all or nothing for you? If the genes are there then the trait is manifest and if it's not manifest then the genes were not there -- is that how you see it no matter what condition is being discussed?

It's all done with smoke and mirrors. Or, how to create the illusion of a schizophrenic brain disease

Mary Boyle, University of East London

Reprinted from Clinical Psychology Issue 12. April 2002 pp 9-16

One of the more intriguing aspects of the "schizophrenia" literature is the discrepancy between the strength of the belief that "schizophrenia is a brain disease" and the availability of direct supporting evidence; even those who hold the belief admit that there is no direct evidence for it (e.g. Chua and McKenna, 1995; McGrath and Emerson, 1999; American Psychiatric Association, 2000). This raises the question of why the belief seems so reasonable and credible. Or, to put it another way, how is the presentation of "schizophrenia as a brain disease" managed in such a way that the absence of direct evidence will not be noticed or not seem important? These questions are important not least because the belief has profound implications for research and intervention. For example, the US National Institute for Mental Health's "next steps for schizophrenia research" focused - in this order- on genetics, neuroimaging, post-mortem studies, developmental neurobiology and clinical trials (Hyman, 2000). In line with this biological emphasis, drugs may be seen as the "natural" and inevitable treatment, with non-physical interventions being seen - to use Tarrier et al.'s ( 2000) own description of their CBT - as "adjunct" therapies. ("Adjunct" is defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as "a subordinate or incidental thing".)

http://www.critpsynet.freeuk.com/Boyle.htm

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGgsjXq7J6Y]Recovery: Schizophrenia & Mental Illness -- Psychology - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Sunni Man]

Not completely genetic...but kindly explain why if one identical twin is gay, there is about a 50% chance that the other one is.....even if they are raised apart.

I assume you have a to back this claim up.

Waiting................

Still waiting.......................

 

[sealybobo]

I really want to start a dialog between people who, for lack of a better word, do not support gay rights with people who do.

My goal is to eliminate all superstition, pre-conceived beliefs, personal idea of what "common sense" is or fears from the argument and just tackle the issue using logic and reasoning and evidence. Again, religion and personal beliefs (which are discussed everywhere else) are not the point of this thread. Evidence and facts are.

So, what evidence makes you come to the conclusion that being gay is wrong or unnatural? If you could ask a gay guy something, what would it be?

Anger, insults and religious dogma detract from the point of this thread. If you are angry and want to insult, please go to another thread where you are free to do so.

People cannot form a good/valid opinion until they look at evidence. If something is true, there will be evidence to indicate it is so. Using evidence is the hallmark of an intelligent person's perspective on an issue. Moving away from evidence indicates a lack of research, rigidity and is the highlight of a weak opinion.

A reasonable question/statement is one that uses evidence or research (eg. This study says this about homosexuality..., it is a fact pedophilia has gone up in this city as shown by this research..., etc...) or even just an observation (eg. Gay people cannot reproduce, so isn't it wrong?).

An unreasonable/illogical question is one that is insulting, deflective or a loaded question (eg. Do fags carry lube in their pockets all day?/Africa is a hellhole, so how can you say being gay is not bad?/ Do the perverted sexual deviants realize how they are destroying America's children?)

I want to hear from people who are genuinely interested in looking at the issue of homosexuality. If you know your opinion will never change because you "know" it is wrong, then this is not for you.

If no evidence is presented, I can conclude that no one that posted in this thread who opposes gay rights has any evidence to support their opinion.

When did this start?

Gay rights?

I thought the beef was same-sex marriage.....not Gay rights????

You don't understand that its discrimination to allow straight couples to get married and enjoy all kinds of benefits and then deny gay couples all those same benefits? Thats what this is all about, be honest. But sooner or later and slowly but surely they are getting their way. And I hope it kills you.

 

[sealybobo]

Odd how gio can write of the genetic predisposition toward addiction, not everyone accepts alcohol & drug addiction have genetic links. Perhaps addicts just have low morals. And of course schizophrenia is caused by mean mothers......

For the hetero "choice" crowd: When did you CHOOSE to be heterosexual?

Summer of 1968, why do you ask?

Did you really give being homosexual a fair shake? No pun intended.

Do you do any other positions other than missionary? Ew! People who do what you do are weird. I don't think people who do it like you should be allowed to get married or join the military. And I don't think you and your partner should get the tax breaks that go along with being married, nor should you be able to adopt. Do you really do that shit? With your spouse? What the fuck is wrong with you? Pervert! People like you should be locked up. Its not natural. The bible even warns us about fornicators like you. Fucking creep. You should be put on a sex offenders list for doing what you do in the privacy of your own home, with your spouse. And then you kiss your kids later with that mouth? Wow! Do you think that is NORMAL? You do realize less than 10% of heteros do that, right? So you are like a gay doing that kinky shit.

At least according to me and my church. We think people like you burn in hell and need to repent. Sinner.

 

[BDBoop]

Summer of 1968, why do you ask?

Did you really give being homosexual a fair shake? No pun intended.

Do you do any other positions other than missionary? Ew! People who do what you do are weird. I don't think people who do it like you should be allowed to get married or join the military. And I don't think you and your partner should get the tax breaks that go along with being married, nor should you be able to adopt. Do you really do that shit? With your spouse? What the fuck is wrong with you? Pervert! People like you should be locked up. Its not natural. The bible even warns us about fornicators like you. Fucking creep. You should be put on a sex offenders list for doing what you do in the privacy of your own home, with your spouse. And then you kiss your kids later with that mouth? Wow! Do you think that is NORMAL? You do realize less than 10% of heteros do that, right? So you are like a gay doing that kinky shit.

At least according to me and my church. We think people like you burn in hell and need to repent. Sinner.

/falls over, sobbing

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You should pick a better source.

Box Turtle Bulletin » Today In History: APA Removes Homosexuality from List of Mental Disorders

FYI, there is conclusive evidence that homosexuality is not genetic.

Ok. If the largest psychological organization in the world is not a good source, then what is?

And the WHOLE POINT of this thread was for people like you to post the "conclusive data."

Go on, leave a link. You didn't just make that up, did you?

If you aren't confident enough in your own sexuality to declare it to be normal just because it is then no source is going to make a difference. If you are, you would be smart enough not to pick a source that declared homosexuality to be a mental defect just a few years ago because they might change their mind again.

As for the conclusive proof, read the studies that people have used to try to prove me wrong.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Odd how gio can write of the genetic predisposition toward addiction, not everyone accepts alcohol & drug addiction have genetic links. Perhaps addicts just have low morals. And of course schizophrenia is caused by mean mothers......

For the hetero "choice" crowd: When did you CHOOSE to be heterosexual?

Summer of 1968, why do you ask?

Did you really give being homosexual a fair shake? No pun intended.

I was 9, I didn't give anything a fair shake. That was, however, when I made up my mind.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Summer of 1968, why do you ask?

Did you really give being homosexual a fair shake? No pun intended.

Do you do any other positions other than missionary? Ew! People who do what you do are weird. I don't think people who do it like you should be allowed to get married or join the military. And I don't think you and your partner should get the tax breaks that go along with being married, nor should you be able to adopt. Do you really do that shit? With your spouse? What the fuck is wrong with you? Pervert! People like you should be locked up. Its not natural. The bible even warns us about fornicators like you. Fucking creep. You should be put on a sex offenders list for doing what you do in the privacy of your own home, with your spouse. And then you kiss your kids later with that mouth? Wow! Do you think that is NORMAL? You do realize less than 10% of heteros do that, right? So you are like a gay doing that kinky shit.

At least according to me and my church. We think people like you burn in hell and need to repent. Sinner.

Do you have any idea how stupid you are?

 

[MaxCha]

If you aren't confident enough in your own sexuality to declare it to be normal just because it is then no source is going to make a difference. If you are, you would be smart enough not to pick a source that declared homosexuality to be a mental defect just a few years ago because they might change their mind again.

As for the conclusive proof, read the studies that people have used to try to prove me wrong.

Yeah boooii, me posting a link to the APA means I'm not confident in my sexuality! Saying "I know being gay is normal and natural because I am gay" is not the point of this thread. I wanted to discuss it scientifically, to see if conservatives were motivated by anything more than hatred, fear and dogma.

And so what if the APA said it was a mental illness decades back? The dictionary and all encyclopedias a century back said negros and yellow people were sub human. People burned "witches" right here on US soil not too long ago. Wanna know why?

Because they were motivated by HATRED, FEAR and DOGMA and not science. Sound familiar?

And nice job at continuing to not present any evidence or facts. Just keep beating round the bush like the sheep always do...

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If you aren't confident enough in your own sexuality to declare it to be normal just because it is then no source is going to make a difference. If you are, you would be smart enough not to pick a source that declared homosexuality to be a mental defect just a few years ago because they might change their mind again.

As for the conclusive proof, read the studies that people have used to try to prove me wrong.

Yeah boooii, me posting a link to the APA means I'm not confident in my sexuality! Saying "I know being gay is normal and natural because I am gay" is not the point of this thread. I wanted to discuss it scientifically, to see if conservatives were motivated by anything more than hatred, fear and dogma.

And so what if the APA said it was a mental illness decades back? The dictionary and all encyclopedias a century back said negros and yellow people were sub human. People burned "witches" right here on US soil not too long ago. Wanna know why?

Because they were motivated by HATRED, FEAR and DOGMA and not science. Sound familiar?

And nice job at continuing to not present any evidence or facts. Just keep beating round the bush like the sheep always do...

You proved that the purpose of this thread isn't what you said it was. I actually tried to have an objective discussion about this and got attacked by all the idiots like you who think that people who disagree with you are motivated by hatred, fear, and dogma.

Since you don't even know enough about the science to actually cite a group that uses science, or even enough to know that I was referring to twin studies when I said that there is conclusive evidence that homosexuality is not genetic, you have no business trying to call other people on their understanding of science.

Simple fact, if sexual orientation is genetic all identical twins, having identical genetic material, would end up with the same sexual orientation.

Simple fact, they don't.

 

[MaxCha]

But really, does anyone who is against gay people being given the right to marry/adopt/not be discriminated against have any evidence to support their opinion?

You want to call yourself married, go ahead. Free speech. What this Libertarian stands against is government defining personal relationships for anyone, gay or straight. Further, government should give no "perks" for being married nor attempt to define the institution of marriage, which as been around a lot longer than our government. If this were the case, government would have no ability to grant or withdraw your right to call yourself married.

If a private adoption agency prefers to give their kids to people meeting certain criteria, that's their right. If you don't like it, start an adoption agency for gay couples only.

Regarding discrimination, you'll have to be more specific. If you're looking for special class status, you'll not get my support. If you're looking for government to not treat you differently than anyone else, you've got my undying support. Equal justice, not social justice.

Okay. Didn't see this until now.

I understand what you're saying about marriage, but if we assume that being gay is something that a person cannot change (life experience and all the studies I have read make me 100% certain of this) then a segment of the population will never have the right to marry someone they love. What harm would come from letting them do so? Same sex marriage has been legal in some European countries for a decade and there have been no negative consequences that have surfaced (one Christian sight makes reference to a "higher divorce rate" but cites no study, and if you look up the divorce rate in the Netherlands a graph shows it has stayed almost exactly the same for the past 20 years).

And if a Christian adoption agency wishes to not allow gay couples, I guess I wouldn't argue against it. But the US has non-discriminatory policies that disallow organization from excluding people based upon ethnicity, religious background etc... I won't use a slippery slope fallacy and say "Who will they deny next! The blacks!!" but laws in the US cover a lot of ground, so then in theory couldn't a school refuse to allow gay people work soley because they're gay? Or a restaurant decide to not allow gay patrons? Laws are so broad, hence tricky.

One thing I do know is there are NO studies that have concluded that children of gay parents are any worse off mentally or physically than children of straight people. And many studies have been done with the hypothesis that the kids would be maladjusted. Check peer reviewed article sites like PsycInfo and search "homosexuality" and "parents."

And as to your last paragraph - I'd say "of course I don't want gays to have special rights" but I must realize that might not be obvious to some. I would reject any law that wishes to grant gays more rights, and would reject (if such a thing existed) any attempt to include gays in any kind of Affirmative Action type program. All I personally want is for people to just leave us alone and let us have the right to adopt or serve in the military like anyone else, as well as be rejected from such programs if found unfit - just like everybody else. But to deny these things to someone who is a fit parent or soldier only because they are gay, that is what I want to stop.

As for marriage, i'll leave that on the sideline for now. I can imagine what it might feel like to some people who have little experience or some misunderstandings about it. Even though I don't think gay marriage "forces" anything on anybody, I'll just leave that out of the conversation for now as it's all a matter of opinion.

Sorry that was real long..

 

[MaxCha]

You proved that the purpose of this thread isn't what you said it was. I actually tried to have an objective discussion about this and got attacked by all the idiots like you who think that people who disagree with you are motivated by hatred, fear, and dogma.

Since you don't even know enough about the science to actually cite a group that uses science, or even enough to know that I was referring to twin studies when I said that there is conclusive evidence that homosexuality is not genetic, you have no business trying to call other people on their understanding of science.

Simple fact, if sexual orientation is genetic all identical twins, having identical genetic material, would end up with the same sexual orientation.

Simple fact, they don't.

Yes, I agree you are correct as to how I behaved in the last few pages.

I am really not here to fight. Serious, I actually respect anybody's opinion that is stated without any anger, ridicule or religious texts.

If you have the time, please read through the first 8 pages of this thread and look to see if I tried to remain civil and responsive to the one or two people who actually asked me a question. Look at the other posts and tell me if practically every opposing view point was not calling me a fudge packing AIDS spreading degenerate faggot.

I didn't engage in any arguing or name calling, I honestly tried my best to keep on topic and be respectful and answer every question presented.

Your first post on this thread wasn't a question, it was something about how you don't support the term gay rights but instead individual rights. I understand and agree if the term "gay rights" isn't further defined it may appear as if gays want something more than perfect equality. But I didn't think there was a question in your post that required an answer.

 

[Sunni Man]

I didn't engage in any arguing or name calling, I honestly tried my best to keep on topic and be respectful and answer every question presented.

You are a blatant liar.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5367972

 

[bodecea]

I assume you have a to back this claim up.

Waiting................

Still waiting.......................

I've already given two links. Do you want them again? Or can you be bothered to scroll back a few pages at most to see them?

 

[bodecea]

If you aren't confident enough in your own sexuality to declare it to be normal just because it is then no source is going to make a difference. If you are, you would be smart enough not to pick a source that declared homosexuality to be a mental defect just a few years ago because they might change their mind again.

As for the conclusive proof, read the studies that people have used to try to prove me wrong.

Yeah boooii, me posting a link to the APA means I'm not confident in my sexuality! Saying "I know being gay is normal and natural because I am gay" is not the point of this thread. I wanted to discuss it scientifically, to see if conservatives were motivated by anything more than hatred, fear and dogma.

And so what if the APA said it was a mental illness decades back? The dictionary and all encyclopedias a century back said negros and yellow people were sub human. People burned "witches" right here on US soil not too long ago. Wanna know why?

Because they were motivated by HATRED, FEAR and DOGMA and not science. Sound familiar?

And nice job at continuing to not present any evidence or facts. Just keep beating round the bush like the sheep always do...

I read an interesting book, years ago, and I wish I could remember the title...but it was a collection of Medical articles from the late 1800s, primarily talking about how women were too weak or to emotional to do certain things. One of my favorite was an article attempting to make the case that women's brains were too scattered to operate the newly invented typewriter and the sewing machine.

It was a hoot.