American unions

[Psychoblues]

I would suggest that you get your education the hard way, bvbm, like I did.

I'm not terribly familiar with the history of labor unions. I know that government troops have broken strikes in the past, which of course is flagrantly wrong. My skepticism was directed at the statement that companies *are* attempting to murder unionists. As in, here and now, in the year 2007 AD. If you could link me to an article or two, that would be great, because I honestly have not heard this.

However, the internet is an easy tool for you to use. Use it.

 

[midcan5]

http://www.counterpunch.org/kuhn11262007.html

 

[Diuretic]

http://www.counterpunch.org/kuhn11262007.html

As you'd expect from the author, that was a very good article. The "Your Rights at Work" grassroots (making savvy use of all those tubes on the internets) movement will continue even under Rudd Labor, albeit with different tactics. Howard forgot, "be careful what you wish for."

Check this out:

SMALL businesses are being urged to sack workers before Labor overhauls the industrial relations laws as one of the nation's biggest employers races to put 15,000 staff on five-year employment contracts before Work Choices is scrapped.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22839804-11949,00.html

 

[Toro]

The truth is that unions never priced themselves out of business. The truth is that greedy companies have shifted to places where they can get the product made at lower wage rates then they can sell back into the domestic US market without passing on the cost differential into pricing.

I am pretty certain this is incorrect. The effect of Wal-Mart in the United States has been massive in changing the psychology of inflation in this country. Much of the goods in Wal-Mart are produced offshore, which is due primarily to Wal-Mart's razor like precision in running its distribution system and its insistence on keeping prices low.

Though manufacturing output in the United States continues to rise, the number of jobs in manufacturing has been falling for some time. This is due primarily to lower productivity jobs being moved offshore as many low-end manufacturing companies simply cannot compete with cheap imports. There are examples of nefarious companies using unscrupulous methods. However, the average manufacturing company in the Rust Belt simply cannot compete with foreign competition. Thus, the choice for the manufacturing company becomes one where either the American company will produce offshore and sell into the US or the foreign company will produce offshore and sell into the US.

 

[Toro]

Because the Unions force the company to adhere to numerous regulations, regulations that would reduce efficiency.

This is the biggest problem with unions IMO. Labor unions often negotiate for rigid job classifications and work rules which inhibit flexibility and imposes a cost on the company that is usually unnecessary.

There is nothing wrong with unions per se. After all, the law protects capital so why not labor? However, many of things organized labor fought for are now enshrined in law, such as the minimum wage to occupational safety, thus there is less of an imperative for a union. Most Americans do not want a union because it takes money off their paycheck. And to some, unions used to symbolize communism, fair or not, as they are often associated with communist movements elsewhere. Unions have arisen where companies treat their employees poorly. Corporations get the unions they deserve. These days, corporations treat their employees better than they did 40, 50 years ago, which means people are less apt to want a union.

 

[Diuretic]

I am pretty certain this is incorrect. The effect of Wal-Mart in the United States has been massive in changing the psychology of inflation in this country. Much of the goods in Wal-Mart are produced offshore, which is due primarily to Wal-Mart's razor like precision in running its distribution system and its insistence on keeping prices low.

Though manufacturing output in the United States continues to rise, the number of jobs in manufacturing has been falling for some time. This is due primarily to lower productivity jobs being moved offshore as many low-end manufacturing companies simply cannot compete with cheap imports. There are examples of nefarious companies using unscrupulous methods. However, the average manufacturing company in the Rust Belt simply cannot compete with foreign competition. Thus, the choice for the manufacturing company becomes one where either the American company will produce offshore and sell into the US or the foreign company will produce offshore and sell into the US.

Point taken re Wal-Mart. I assume from your post that Wal-Mart contracts with suppliers who are offshore. They would be able to keep the cost of stock to them fairly low due to their size I would think. They can keep the cost of domestic labour down as well because, as I understand it, they don't allow collective bargaining (I'm asking because I don't know).

I don't understand how manufacturing output in the US continues to rise. I'm assuming you're suggesting that such output is indeed purely domestic (ie made in the USA) and not simply produced offshore and imported or reassembled inside the US.

Hah this is fun, I'm totally out of my depth but I'm keen to learn

 

[Diuretic]

This is the biggest problem with unions IMO. Labor unions often negotiate for rigid job classifications and work rules which inhibit flexibility and imposes a cost on the company that is usually unnecessary.

There is nothing wrong with unions per se. After all, the law protects capital so why not labor? However, many of things organized labor fought for are now enshrined in law, such as the minimum wage to occupational safety, thus there is less of an imperative for a union. Most Americans do not want a union because it takes money off their paycheck. And to some, unions used to symbolize communism, fair or not, as they are often associated with communist movements elsewhere. Unions have arisen where companies treat their employees poorly. Corporations get the unions they deserve. These days, corporations treat their employees better than they did 40, 50 years ago, which means people are less apt to want a union.

Interesting and reasonable comments. I've long said (and I was involved in the union movement as an official at senior levels for some years) that unions have to re-invent themselves and also have to differentiate themselves. The so-called "blue collar" unions no less than the "white collar" unions have to do so. The first thing is to drop the class warfare thing, it's not useful.

On the model for white collar occupations I can suggest no better than this union in Australia - http://www.apesma.asn.au/

On labour laws and occ safety laws. Good if they're enforced properly. If they're in name only and no-one's enforcing them they they're only going to be useful after a terrible event.

 

[Toro]

Point taken re Wal-Mart. I assume from your post that Wal-Mart contracts with suppliers who are offshore. They would be able to keep the cost of stock to them fairly low due to their size I would think. They can keep the cost of domestic labour down as well because, as I understand it, they don't allow collective bargaining (I'm asking because I don't know).

I don't understand how manufacturing output in the US continues to rise. I'm assuming you're suggesting that such output is indeed purely domestic (ie made in the USA) and not simply produced offshore and imported or reassembled inside the US.

Hah this is fun, I'm totally out of my depth but I'm keen to learn

It continues to rise because manufacturing in the US continues to get more productive. Most of the jobs that have been moved offshore have been lower productivity jobs.

 

[Diuretic]

So high-skilled jobs remain and low-skilled jobs go offshore? Is that what happens?

That causes a problem for the low-skilled/unskilled I suppose who are left without work.

But from a national policy point of view it makes sense. Low-skill jobs are going to go offshore in a global economy and there's nothing a national government can do about it short of nationalising an entire industry and that's not going to happen. So, the policy response should be to ensure that the workforce becomes more highly skilled. Those low-skilled workers can be given an opportunity to re-train and upskill (I hate that neologism but sometimes it fits) and that must benefit the economy surely.

 

[Chips Rafferty]

So high-skilled jobs remain and low-skilled jobs go offshore? Is that what happens?

That causes a problem for the low-skilled/unskilled I suppose who are left without work.

But from a national policy point of view it makes sense. Low-skill jobs are going to go offshore in a global economy and there's nothing a national government can do about it short of nationalising an entire industry and that's not going to happen. So, the policy response should be to ensure that the workforce becomes more highly skilled. Those low-skilled workers can be given an opportunity to re-train and upskill (I hate that neologism but sometimes it fits) and that must benefit the economy surely.

...and the really smart ones become plumbers, carpenters, etc and charge the mug intelligensia a motzah for doing the jobs that are beyond their ability/below their dignity!

As Guru Bob would say, "Think aboud id!"

 

[Diuretic]

...and the really smart ones become plumbers, carpenters, etc and charge the mug intelligensia a motzah for doing the jobs that are beyond their ability/below their dignity!

As Guru Bob would say, "Think aboud id!"

My dad was a plumber (worked for BHP), bloody shame it was when there were plenty of skilled workers. He'd be stunned to see all the "cashed up Bogans" (not my phrase but I llke it) driving stupidly expensive utes from job to job. Anyway, good luck to them.

 

[Diuretic]

Why we still need unions:

Boss who hit worker with hammer jailed


November 29, 2007 - 4:04PM


A Sydney boss who attacked a young employee with a claw hammer, breaking his jaw and leaving him blind in one eye, has been jailed for two years but could face further charges.

Samuel Kautai, 21, lost all sight in his right eye after his boss, Manuel Purauto, hit him in the face with a hammer in December 2005.

Mr Kautai's jaw and some of his teeth were also broken and he had bruises which took 18 months to heal.

In Sydney's Downing Centre Local Court on Thursday, Magistrate Hugh Dillon jailed Purauto for a maximum two years over the "vicious and brutal attack".

He said it was part of a campaign of violent discipline he exercised over his young workers.

Mr Dillon also forwarded the brief to the Commonwealth and Queensland Directors of Public Prosecutions (DPP) for consideration as to whether there had been breaches of their laws.

Mr Kautai was one of five Cook Islander men brought to Australia by Purauto to work under a two-year "indentured agreement".

He lived in Purauto's Sydney home from June 2004 and was effectively under the 44-year-old's guardianship.

"This was a very tight ship indeed, it was a regime where Mr Purauto's rules were vigorously enforced," Mr Dillon said.

"It involved gratuitous cruelty."

Mr Dillon said Purauto would throw tools and metal bars or punch his workers in the face, with conditions so bad three employees ran away with virtually nothing in their pockets.

They were treated "brutally and shamefully", being paid $50 or $60 occasionally and only allowed to go out if Purauto was in a good mood.

The construction union helped Mr Kautai bring the matter to court, and was also successful in winning him an order for $136,000 in unpaid wages.

CFMEU spokesman Tim Vollmer said it was most vicious case of exploitation the union had seen.

"You've got an employer using his ethnic contacts to bring in underage workers from overseas, treating them effectively as slaves... and using violence and intimidation to force them to work for him," Mr Vollmer said.

"We definitely welcome this going further, the union was actually hoping the federal police would investigate this as a people trafficking matter... this is the first step, but there's a long way to go."

Mr Dillon imposed the maximum available penalty for maliciously inflicting grievous bodily harm, saying it was a "brutal and gratuitously violent offence".

Mr Dillon said it was so serious that the local court was not the appropriate forum for the case, and he would write to the NSW DPP and attorney-general to voice his concerns.

Outside court police were forced to step between Mr Kautai's supporters and members of the Purauto family, who were visibly distressed by the outcome.

"Are you happy? You're going to end up in jail, you," Purauto's sister yelled at the victim, clinging to her brother as he was led away by corrective services officers.

Outside court, Mr Kautai said the legal battle had been worth it.

"But it's not enough," he told reporters.

"Two years is not enough (jail time)."

His hopes of a "good life" in Australia had been shattered, and Mr Kautai said he was going to return to the Cook Islands.

This story was found at: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/11/29/1196037056363.html

Bastard should have got ten years.

 

[Chips Rafferty]

My dad was a plumber (worked for BHP), bloody shame it was when there were plenty of skilled workers. He'd be stunned to see all the "cashed up Bogans" (not my phrase but I llke it) driving stupidly expensive utes from job to job. Anyway, good luck to them.

Supply and demand, Dee, supply and demand.

After the Black Plague swept Europe, the poor aristocrats complained bitterly that the uppity peasants were demanding, and getting, up to seven times their pre-plague rates because of the shortage of unskilled labour.

There is a similar killin’ to be made when De Lawd raptures up all the trailer trash “process workers” asinine enough to worship him.

 

[Diuretic]

Supply and demand, Dee, supply and demand.

After the Black Plague swept Europe, the poor aristocrats complained bitterly that the uppity peasants were demanding, and getting, up to seven times their pre-plague rates because of the shortage of unskilled labour.

There is a similar killin’ to be made when De Lawd raptures up all the trailer trash “process workers” asinine enough to worship him.

That explains the Statute of Labourers in Elizabethan (the First) England. Looks like Howard was a history buff after all, Work Choices really was Serf Choices. But...but....won't all our good capitalist fans tell us that the laws of supply and demand were only invented after good old Dr Smith did this thing??

Ah, yes, the Rapture. Been done before though:

Some time ago a crazy dream came to me,
I dreamt I was walkin' into World War Three,
I went to the doctor the very next day
To see what kinda words he could say.
He said it was a bad dream.
I wouldn't worry 'bout it none, though,
They were my own dreams and they're only in my head.

I said, "Hold it, Doc, a World War passed through my brain."
He said, "Nurse, get your pad, this boy's insane,"
He grabbed my arm, I said "Ouch!"
As I landed on the psychiatric couch,
He said, "Tell me about it."

Well, the whole thing started at 3 o'clock fast,
It was all over by quarter past.
I was down in the sewer with some little lover
When I peeked out from a manhole cover
Wondering who turned the lights on.

Well, I got up and walked around
And up and down the lonesome town.
I stood a-wondering which way to go,
I lit a cigarette on a parking meter
And walked on down the road.
It was a normal day.

Well, I rung the fallout shelter bell
And I leaned my head and I gave a yell,
"Give me a string bean, I'm a hungry man."
A shotgun fired and away I ran.
I don't blame them too much though,
I know I look funny.

Down at the corner by a hot-dog stand
I seen a man, I said, "Howdy friend,
I guess there's just us two."
He screamed a bit and away he flew.
Thought I was a Communist.

Well, I spied a girl and before she could leave,
"Let's go and play Adam and Eve."
I took her by the hand and my heart it was thumpin'
When she said, "Hey man, you crazy or sumpin',
You see what happened last time they started."

Well, I seen a Cadillac window uptown
And there was nobody aroun',
I got into the driver's seat
And I drove 42nd Street
In my Cadillac.
Good car to drive after a war.

Well, I remember seein' some ad,
So I turned on my Conelrad.
But I didn't pay my Con Ed bill,
So the radio didn't work so well.
Turned on my player-
It was Rock-A-Day, Johnny singin',
"Tell Your Ma, Tell Your Pa,
Our Loves Are Gonna Grow Ooh-wah, Ooh-wah."

I was feelin' kinda lonesome and blue,
I needed somebody to talk to.
So I called up the operator of time
Just to hear a voice of some kind.
"When you hear the beep
It will be three o'clock,"
She said that for over an hour
And I hung it up.

Well, the doctor interrupted me just about then,
Sayin, "Hey I've been havin' the same old dreams,
But mine was a little different you see.
I dreamt that the only person left after the war was me.
I didn't see you around."

Well, now time passed and now it seems
Everybody's having them dreams.
Everybody sees themselves walkin' around with no one else.
Half of the people can be part right all of the time,
Some of the people can be all right part of the time.
But all the people can't be all right all the time
I think Abraham Lincoln said that.
"I'll let you be in my dreams if I can be in yours,"
I said that.

Bob Dylan, Talkin' World War III Blues.

 

[Toro]

So high-skilled jobs remain and low-skilled jobs go offshore? Is that what happens?

That causes a problem for the low-skilled/unskilled I suppose who are left without work.

But from a national policy point of view it makes sense. Low-skill jobs are going to go offshore in a global economy and there's nothing a national government can do about it short of nationalising an entire industry and that's not going to happen. So, the policy response should be to ensure that the workforce becomes more highly skilled. Those low-skilled workers can be given an opportunity to re-train and upskill (I hate that neologism but sometimes it fits) and that must benefit the economy surely.

That's correct. And eventually, as the productivity of countries like China grow, more of the jobs that are considered higher productivity now will also move offshore. The task will be to improve productivity at home. As long as higher productivity jobs are being created at home, then manufacturing production will continue to rise.

And your policy response is dead on. I am a big believer in free trade and globalization, but also that governments should construct policies to deal with the dislocations arising from those. And that includes increasing education for the lesser skilled, a policy that other free-marketers such as Alan Greenspan and Jagdish Bhagwati also support.

 

[Psychoblues]

Ridiculous. American manufacturing is as competitive as anywhere. The moves offshore are purely profit motivated with no other benefit to the American workers that were displaced by the move. It would take several books to explain all this but really do we want to live in a country that cannot produce the clothes that our citizens wear, the machines that our industries need for IT or even mechanical production, the books that we all enjoy or even the weaponry that we need for our own military?

It's been going this way for a long time. It is now time for Americans to end it. I'm doing my best to push the Democratic Party in that direction. What are you doing to protect your own interests as well as the interests of your country?

 

[indago]

CNN — LOU DOBBS TONIGHT — Aired December 6, 2007 - 19:00 ET

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The future for American factory workers continues to dim as millions of jobs move to other countries. The government expects this country to keep losing manufacturing jobs because American companies are shifting their manufacturing base away from U.S. soil. Bill Tucker reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There was a time when more than 60 percent of people in America worked in manufacturing. Jobs were good. They paid well and they allowed working class Americans to enter the middle class. Today, fewer people work in manufacturing at the United States than any time since June of 1950. Now, only 12 percent earn their paychecks in the manufacturing sector. Its future is dwindling. Since 2000, we've lost more than 3 million manufacturing jobs. In the next eight we'll lose another 1.5 million according to estimates by the Bureau of Labor Statistics but those losses don't tell even half of the story.

SCOTT PAUL, AMERICAN ALLIANCE FOR MANUFACTURING: Their jobs support four or five other jobs in the economy. They have a great multiplier effect. The fact is these retail jobs don't have that kind of multiplier effect. We'll see fewer opportunities down the road for young people or for people who don't have college degrees.

TUCKER: Almost 9 percent of our scientists are employed in the manufacturing sector. The report is nearly twice as large as the rest of the economy. Beyond the ripple effect, there's the financial question of what happens to the wealth of the country which moves its manufacturing overseas, driving America to rack up massive trade deficits.

LLOYD WOOD, AMER. MFG. TRADE ACTION COALITION: What are the foreigners going to do with the trade surpluses like the Chinese and their $1.4 trillion? They are going to turn around and buy up U.S. assets and take profit streams and send them back home to the market.

TUCKER: Then it's not just jobs but wealth of the country being exported.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TUCKER: Some people see that as a China problem or Indian problem. Trade policy critics say, and this is not a blame game. America needs to get its own house in order. So that we understand its importance to our country's future.

ROMANS: So many people have written off the industrial base, though. They say it's so last century, that now we're a service economy.

TUCKER: I know it's interesting and students of history should go back and look. That was the original idea when this country started. Leave the manufacturing offshore. But we learned and Hamilton showed us, you can't be a nation state without an industrial base. It just doesn't happen.

ROMANS: All right, Bill Tucker. Thanks, Bill.

 

[Chips Rafferty]

Ridiculous. American manufacturing is as competitive as anywhere. The moves offshore are purely profit motivated with no other benefit to the American workers that were displaced by the move. It would take several books to explain all this but really do we want to live in a country that cannot produce the clothes that our citizens wear, the machines that our industries need for IT or even mechanical production, the books that we all enjoy or even the weaponry that we need for our own military?

It's been going this way for a long time. It is now time for Americans to end it. I'm doing my best to push the Democratic Party in that direction. What are you doing to protect your own interests as well as the interests of your country?

Efficiency is defined by the capitalists as working 16/7/365 for a small bowl of company boiled rice and sleeping two to a palliasse by your work station, to turn out trinkets that westerners don't need/cant afford because they wont work 16/7/365 for a small bowl of company boiled rice and sleep two to a palliasse by their work station, to turn out trinkets that westerners don't need/cant afford.

 

[bush lover]

Thanks to the greedy, corrupt unions, the "average wage" is $17.50 an hourn America!!!!! AN HOUR!!!! That is $36,400 a year for crying out loud!! Who the hell needs that much money??? The unions need to be abolished so we can get our wages down to normal and sensible levels. Chinese make 50 cents an hour and Mexicans get about a buck or so. If we go down to 10 bucks or even 8 bucks, we can compete better with the foreigners. I know for a fact that these outrageously high union wages are driving American corporations to locate jobs overseas, because they all say that in the shareholders material I get every year. The greedy unions are costing the regular people jobs and costing us shareholders dividends, and that's a fact. God, I hate Guiliani's sordid private life and all, but Jesus, please elect him. He is the only pro-American running and he was the hero of 9/11. We need him!

 

[Chips Rafferty]

Thanks to the greedy, corrupt unions, the "average wage" is $17.50 an hourn America!!!!! AN HOUR!!!! That is $36,400 a year for crying out loud!! Who the hell needs that much money??? The unions need to be abolished so we can get our wages down to normal and sensible levels. Chinese make 50 cents an hour and Mexicans get about a buck or so. If we go down to 10 bucks or even 8 bucks, we can compete better with the foreigners. I know for a fact that these outrageously high union wages are driving American corporations to locate jobs overseas, because they all say that in the shareholders material I get every year. The greedy unions are costing the regular people jobs and costing us shareholders dividends, and that's a fact. God, I hate Guiliani's sordid private life and all, but Jesus, please elect him. He is the only pro-American running and he was the hero of 9/11. We need him!

Careful, BL. American's don't do irony!