American unions

[Diuretic]

Thanks for that information nfi - I can see how it works now.

 

[editec]

Di,

One of the things you might NOT understand is that the Iron Workers union is one of the few truly viable unions in America, left.

They are a model, in my opinion, of how unions need to organize, and what the members of the unions must do to insure that their union continues to work for them, too. (they must be willing to fight off the mafia thugs, among other things)

But they do have a couple significant advantages that most unions don't have.

First of all damned few people can be Iron workers because the work is dangerous, and requires enormous skill. Hence they have a supply side workman's advantage few other unions actually have.

Secondly, you cannot outsource their work.

You could, I suppose insource foreign workers, but since the people who end up working in the buildings they make would prefer that the building they are in aren't shoddy pieces of crap that fall down, they're willing to pay for high skilled workers.

 

[Diuretic]

Yes, good points - highly skilled workers are okay just as long as the economy (and I'm using that in the abstract, not referencing any particular economy) is in a state that creates a demand for their skills.

You mentioned insourcing. We did that and we're still doing it, bringing in temporary workers because the previous federal government failed to put in place programmes to train skilled workers. It's wrong on several fronts but I won't go on about it.

And the mention of Ironworkers made me think of this famous old cartoon in my country - ?For gorsake, stop laughing: this is serious!? [First published 29 July, 1933.] - No 65 Autumn 2000 - La Trobe Journal

No disrespect intended to ironworkers or construction workers of course, it's a cartoon from the depression years that is very famous here.

 

[sealybobo]

It's not at all too much of a stretch to note that the decline of purchasing power (not incomes, but the actual value of those wages) has been decling at the same rate that the percentage of working American who are in unions has been going down.

Contrary to the myth of the neo-cons Adam Smith did NOT advise that nations offshore their manufacuturing based on wages. (go check if you doubt me, please)

He was mostly talking about a nation not trying to compete in markets where some other nation had "natural advantages" that made those foreign nation, rather than the nation at hand, the sensible maker of products.

His point wasn't that England should offshore all work, but that England shouldn't try to become (for example) a wine producing nation when Portegual could do it better.

FREE TRADE, as designed by our illustrious leadership, is little more than an undeclared class war.

What cracks me up, is how surprised so many Americans seem to be that we are now in finacial trouble.

Did they really imagine that we could screw about half the American consumers and STILL have a vibrant economy?

Of course they did. Every time you read somebody explaining that only "unskilled workers" are at risk of losing their jobs (and because they were stupid and didn't study hard enough in school or some crap), that is exactly what they were imagining...that the problems of those displaced workers wouldn't come back to effect every American.

Hubris...it's what's for breakfast, luch and dinner, folks.

If your neighbors are getting poorer, guess what? You will be too... and sooner rather than later.

My brother is a VP at a teir one global automotive supplier. This weekend we went on a trip to up north Michigan and had a great time. Funny thing he told me. He said, "you think the Unions in America are bad? They are HORRIBLE in European countries". So bad that he thinks they are going to pull out. For example, in some foreign countries, you can't fire bad workers who don't show up for 100 days in a row. In America, at least there is a cut off point where the Union can't protect the employee any longer and they can be let go. And, the bad employee gets paid while MIA.

I can't remember all the details of what he was telling me, because he sort of goes on and on, but the point was, the Union workers here are not as bad as they are in other countries. American Corporations are finding out that the grass isn't always greener on the other side. They are finding out that American workers aren't as lazy as they thought.

 

[Diuretic]

My brother is a VP at a teir one global automotive supplier. This weekend we went on a trip to up north Michigan and had a great time. Funny thing he told me. He said, "you think the Unions in America are bad? They are HORRIBLE in European countries". So bad that he thinks they are going to pull out. For example, in some foreign countries, you can't fire bad workers who don't show up for 100 days in a row. In America, at least there is a cut off point where the Union can't protect the employee any longer and they can be let go. And, the bad employee gets paid while MIA.

I can't remember all the details of what he was telling me, because he sort of goes on and on, but the point was, the Union workers here are not as bad as they are in other countries. American Corporations are finding out that the grass isn't always greener on the other side. They are finding out that American workers aren't as lazy as they thought.

No nation's workers are "lazy", if they were they wouldn't turn up for work. What might be at play here is the difference in work culture and expectations of conditions. If a business wants to enter a domestic market and employ local labour then it has to deal with that domestic market's work culture. If it doesn't like it then it 's free to pull out.

 

[editec]

My brother is a VP at a teir one global automotive supplier. This weekend we went on a trip to up north Michigan and had a great time. Funny thing he told me. He said, "you think the Unions in America are bad? They are HORRIBLE in European countries". So bad that he thinks they are going to pull out. For example, in some foreign countries, you can't fire bad workers who don't show up for 100 days in a row. In America, at least there is a cut off point where the Union can't protect the employee any longer and they can be let go. And, the bad employee gets paid while MIA.

I can't remember all the details of what he was telling me, because he sort of goes on and on, but the point was, the Union workers here are not as bad as they are in other countries. American Corporations are finding out that the grass isn't always greener on the other side. They are finding out that American workers aren't as lazy as they thought.

Well that probably explains why most of our chacha crap isn't imported from Europe.

I wonder how unionism is doing in China and Vietnam?

Odd, don't you think, that our corporations are so willing to work with, invest in and cozy up to the residually still communist nations, and nations where the government is more totalitarian than ours or Europe's, isn't it?

Or, if you really think about it, maybe not odd at all.

 

[editec]

Any union that has meetings that don't break out into fistfights is probably no longer really a union working for the workers because they workers no longer are involved.

I'm only half kidding, BTW.

 

[sealybobo]

In another thread there's a subsidiary discussion that is getting into the ideas of unions. I didn't want to derail the thread by taking the discussion in to unions and labour relations but it's a very interesting topic to me and I've been a senior union official in my union (was for some years, not now) so I'm biased in favour of unions and what they do, but I'm not blind to their faults.

US unions are a strange lot to me. Although they are tied up with the AFL-CIO (an interesting organisation) and are supposed to be close to the Democratic Party, US unions seem to me to be highly apolitical (compared to unions in Europe and Australia I mean). I'm not ignoring Canadian unions which are organised similarly to US unions, so I suppose I should have titled this North American unions but I didn't because I didn't want someone to think it was about the <reaches for tinfoil hat> the coming union of Canada, the US and Mexico.

Are you in a union? Do you think unions do good or are just out to get your dues and give you nothing in return? Are unions needed? Are they effective?
Any opinion at all?

A guy at my work just said its the unions fault his retired "salary" dad lost his health benefit. I pointed out that if not for the union, his dad would never have had it. And because my dad was in the union, he still gets it. I pointed out that our company doesn't have a union, so if unions are the problem, why don't we get a retirement? since reagan, the gop has been breaking the unions. I won't go into my conspiracy theories, but pnac, a conservative think tank, is practicing disaster capitalism. I truly believe they are bankrupting the treasury and corporations so they can break unions, privatize government, outsource jobs, hire illegals, etc.

They sold America that unions are the problem. Unions are why we all make the money we make, why we get sick days, labor laws, workers rights, etc. Now that they have all but broken them, wages are going down, we pay more for health insurance and their asking for more hours.

I think we need a union for all labor. If corporations push too far, we all stay home. I call it the next union. lol

Ps. My brother says unions in other countries are worse. They don't work as hard as we do.

pps. remember jobs americans won't do? another lie to lower wages.

 

[Diuretic]

It's in the interest of any corporation to not have a union in its business. When it comes to bargaining about pay and benefits the company is better off dealing with x number of individuals rather than with a union representing x number of members. So they do everything they can to get rid of unions and some governments will hop in to help them to do so.

I do think that collective bargaining is a good idea and unions bargaining with individual businesses is a good idea because the union, provided the company is frank and open with its financials, can ensure that the interests of its members are balanced with the need for the company to remain viable.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I've been in a union and really all i saw was lazy ass incompetents that did shoddy work, didn't show up or put in bogus disability claims and couldn't be fired because of the fucking union.

one case comes to mind of a guy who sprained a finger and collected disability for something like 18 months. when he didn't show up for hearings on his case they just kept rescheduling because the union rep wouldn't allow a meeting if the scumbag wasn't there. so said scumbag managed to collect his bogus disability pay for another 6 months thats 2 years of pay for a fucking sprained finger!. Meanwhile the rest of us slobs were stuck doing his work forced into double shifts to make up the slack etc.

in short Unions had their place and time but it's time to find a better way.

 

[Diuretic]

That's interesting. I don't think our unions have that sort of power. The federal and state industrial relations (aka labor relations) laws wouldn't countenance that sort of thing.

 

[Striker]

I didn't read this whole thread because it was just too long but I'd like to throw this in for thought.

I don't have this all worked out but wouldn't a system that required, in some way, that a corporation that goes public set aside a block of stock that is reserved for all employees, can only be traded between employees and provides for a substantial vote on corporate issues? As each new block is offered, another block becomes available to the employees.

A pay scale could be negotiated w/ Government mediators, raises could be tied to the cost of living index plus 5% and stock awarded as a bonus for seniority etc?

If everyone had some control, everyone would have a stake in keeping cost down, profits up and effiency at a maximum.

At the end of a 20-30 year career the stock could be reintroduced into the pool and hopefully would solve some retirement issues.

Just a thought. Unions sure ain't cuttin' it.

 

[sealybobo]

It's in the interest of any corporation to not have a union in its business. When it comes to bargaining about pay and benefits the company is better off dealing with x number of individuals rather than with a union representing x number of members. So they do everything they can to get rid of unions and some governments will hop in to help them to do so.

I do think that collective bargaining is a good idea and unions bargaining with individual businesses is a good idea because the union, provided the company is frank and open with its financials, can ensure that the interests of its members are balanced with the need for the company to remain viable.

Well my brother deals with paying the top brass their bonus'. I don't think the way they do that is right either. Imagine if labor got to decide how much they got paid. Do you think the white collar guys are any different?

If anyone thinks labor gets paid too much and the executives don't, then they are fooling themselves.

 

[editec]

Thanks to the greedy, corrupt unions, the "average wage" is $17.50 an hourn America!!!!! AN HOUR!!!! That is $36,400 a year for crying out loud!! Who the hell needs that much money??? The unions need to be abolished so we can get our wages down to normal and sensible levels. Chinese make 50 cents an hour and Mexicans get about a buck or so. If we go down to 10 bucks or even 8 bucks, we can compete better with the foreigners. I know for a fact that these outrageously high union wages are driving American corporations to locate jobs overseas, because they all say that in the shareholders material I get every year. The greedy unions are costing the regular people jobs and costing us shareholders dividends, and that's a fact. God, I hate Guiliani's sordid private life and all, but Jesus, please elect him. He is the only pro-American running and he was the hero of 9/11. We need him!

What a fucking tool.

 

[Striker]

Well my brother deals with paying the top brass their bonus'. I don't think the way they do that is right either. Imagine if labor got to decide how much they got paid. Do you think the white collar guys are any different?

If anyone thinks labor gets paid too much and the executives don't, then they are fooling themselves.

Gotta give you kudos for that.

A $10,000,000.00 bonus for an ingenius plan to save money on healthcare costs by cutting the employees coverage should be indictable.

A rep bump for you. Go Girl.

 

[sealybobo]

What a fucking tool.

HA HA! His wish is coming true.

Iowa meatpacking plant raid uncovers illegal immigrants, underage workers


POSTVILLE, Iowa — When federal immigration agents raided the kosher meatpacking plant here in May and rounded up 389 illegal immigrants, they found more than 20 under-age workers, some as young as 13.

Iowa meatpacking plant raid uncovers illegal immigrants, underage workers | Dallas Morning News | News for Dallas, Texas | Headline | National News

 

[sealybobo]

Gotta give you kudos for that.

A $10,000,000.00 bonus for an ingenius plan to save money on healthcare costs by cutting the employees coverage should be indictable.

A rep bump for you. Go Girl.

Thanks. But fyi, I'm a dude.

 

[Striker]

Thanks. But fyi, I'm a dude.

Check your pm. I just realized I might have made that mistake and sent you an apology a few minutes ago. Again, sorry.

 

[editec]

I didn't read this whole thread because it was just too long but I'd like to throw this in for thought.

I don't have this all worked out but wouldn't a system that required, in some way, that a corporation that goes public set aside a block of stock that is reserved for all employees, can only be traded between employees and provides for a substantial vote on corporate issues? As each new block is offered, another block becomes available to the employees.

A pay scale could be negotiated w/ Government mediators, raises could be tied to the cost of living index plus 5% and stock awarded as a bonus for seniority etc?

If everyone had some control, everyone would have a stake in keeping cost down, profits up and effiency at a maximum.

At the end of a 20-30 year career the stock could be reintroduced into the pool and hopefully would solve some retirement issues.

Just a thought. Unions sure ain't cuttin' it.

Sears roebuck did that.

it was called profit sharing.

Many's the Sears employee who retired comfortably on their stocks.

Then along comes the discount houses and the foreign imports and FREE TRADE (which isn't free for the working classes)

Bye bye worker security at retirement

Bye bye stock sharing ventures and vested employees/ctock owners who actually CARE about the company's bottom line

Hello massive income disparity and working poor.

Life in America, millenium three.

 

[Striker]

Sears roebuck did that.

it was called profit sharing.

Many's the Sears employee who retired comfortably on their stocks.

Then along comes the discount houses and the foreign imports and FREE TRADE (which isn't free for the working classes)

Bye bye worker security at retirement

Bye bye stock sharing ventures and vested employees/ctock owners who actually CARE about the company's bottom line

Hello massive income disparity and working poor.

Life in America, millenium three.

Damn Clinton for signing NAFTA and damn the Repubs for puttin' it together.

They really screwed the pooch on this one and we're the bitch.