American unions

[Diuretic]

How is it a contradiction? The person has the choice whether or not he/she wishes to join a union. The company has the choice whether or not it wishes to employ union workers.

I didn't say it was, I was asking if it was. Now, I don't want to misinterpret so I asked. The first par reads that the first par are a person's subjective opinion. The second par can be read as a more objective view. If someone holds views in both first and second par then there would be an internal contradiction. If their second par is not about their thoughts but an objective statement about how things are or might be, no problem.


Then I wrote:

And if a company fires workers for walking off the job shouuld the union then be able to boycott that company?

And you answered:

Depends on whether or not the workers are union. Here, the company is unionized or not. Either all employees are unionized, or they are not. If it is a union shop and it fires workers without cause or for reasons in violation of union laws, then of course the union may strike against the company.

If it is an open shop, and fires employees for whatever reason, the union is irrelevant.

I get it now. It was the case here where if only one person was in the union then the union had certain rights of entry, inspection and representation. Due to changed federal laws that has been severely curtailed. I don't want to confuse the discussion but here there are federal and state jurisdictions in labour relations (or as we say, "industrial relations"). Under the state jurisdictions unions can still sign up one person and gain entry. Under the federal legislation, as I said, they have been cut back and so have the conditions of people employed under the federal industrial relations system.

Interesting to see the differences.

 

[supermarine]

I'll admit I don't know a lot about this subject, so I will talk from personal experience. I work at Whole foods as a bagger, I'm 17. I get paid $11.75 an hour, and we are NOT unionized. My friend works across the street at Safeway and earns $7.25 an hour, and they ARE unionized. Now, if someone wanted to Unionize Whole Foods, I'd probably tell them to go to hell, considering I would have to pay hundreds of dollars in Union dues, and the fact that the Unions do not fight for worker's rights.
The reason why Whole Foods pays so well is because they don't want to become Unionized, so they keep their workers happy. So my view for my situation is that unions should stay to provide that counter balance against anyone who would wish to lower our wages.
As to why Unions (in my personal experiences) aren't effective, is because they are in bed with the corporations themselves. They are these huge National behemoths that no longer fight for the rights of a laborer. It is so heavily regulated, so you cannot create a Union that would be more effective.
But of course this is just my personal experience.

 

[Diuretic]

Why do you think Wholefoods doesn't want the union in there?

 

[supermarine]

Because the Unions force the company to adhere to numerous regulations, regulations that would reduce efficiency. It would reduce profits for Whole Foods. Although a unionized Whole Foods might raise our wages a little, the fact of the matter is it would mean Union dues, which by the way are outrageously expensive. Seriously, $400? If Unions are getting $400 per member, that means they should be doing a whole lot better for laborer rights right now, unless, they, NO, EMBEZZLE?!!! NEVER!
The fact of the matter is that Unions (talking about the big National Unions, I wouldn't really have a problem with a small Union that wouldn't rob me) don't do a whole lot in helping their workers, proof from Safeway.
Now there might be cases where they help out, but i think the best experiences are personal experiences, and I say no to the current unions we have today.
If they were to change the system so that Unions weren't so regulated by the big corporate unions so desperate to cling to their power, there wouldn't be this decline in Union membership.

 

[Diuretic]

Really interesting ideas there, thank you.

 

[supermarine]

Nice to be able to have a political argument without having it turn into a flame war once in a while.

 

[bush lover]

Whirlpool bought out its last American competitor, Maytag, and shut down all of Maytag's factories, and good riddance! Why? Because the union Maytag workers made $35,000 a year and Whirlpool pays its non-union help a more realistic $20,000. And if Whirlpool's workers would like to keep their jobs from going to China, they will have to give up another 5 grand a year probably soon. I think it's outrageous that I have to pay inflated prices for a washer that's a piece of crap made by lazy, incompetent, overpaid union workers. The unions have institutionalized laziness, slovenliness, shoddy work and overpayment. These whining babies can live on $20 grand a year if they are careful with their money. But make them earn it! If these lazy slobs represent the so-called dwindling "middle class," then it SHOULD disappear!

 

[supermarine]

Two questions,

1. What kind of job do you have? How much do you make?

2. is Bush Lover a troll?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Two questions,

1. What kind of job do you have? How much do you make?

2. is Bush Lover a troll?

Some believe he is a troll yes.

 

[Chips Rafferty]

In another thread there's a subsidiary discussion that is getting into the ideas of unions. I didn't want to derail the thread by taking the discussion in to unions and labour relations but it's a very interesting topic to me and I've been a senior union official in my union (was for some years, not now) so I'm biased in favour of unions and what they do, but I'm not blind to their faults.

US unions are a strange lot to me. Although they are tied up with the AFL-CIO (an interesting organisation) and are supposed to be close to the Democratic Party, US unions seem to me to be highly apolitical (compared to unions in Europe and Australia I mean). I'm not ignoring Canadian unions which are organised similarly to US unions, so I suppose I should have titled this North American unions but I didn't because I didn't want someone to think it was about the <reaches for tinfoil hat> the coming union of Canada, the US and Mexico.

Are you in a union? Do you think unions do good or are just out to get your dues and give you nothing in return? Are unions needed? Are they effective?
Any opinion at all?

Which union, Dee? We may have mutual acquaintances.

I was in the ETU and the Commonwealth Foremen and Supervisory Officers Association (NUW).

If you're concerned the question might reveal your indentity, don't answer, I'll understand.

 

[Diuretic]

Which union, Dee? We may have mutual acquaintances.

I was in the ETU and the Commonwealth Foremen and Supervisory Officers Association (NUW).

If you're concerned the question might reveal your indentity, don't answer, I'll understand.

No worries Chips, I was running our association here (actually went to the ACTU conference in Melbourne when Jenny George was elected president), the equivalent of Paul Mullett in Vic (I'm sure you know his name, being in a blue with the State Govt and just about everyone else in Melbourne ).

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

If you believe that someone should be able to join a union if they wish and you also believe that you believe a company should be able to fire someone who joins a union isn't that a contradiction?

No, why? No one on any side of the political spectrum would deny that I have a right to tell my boss that I'm taking off if I don't get a raise. And no one would deny that he has a right to either agree to my demands, or replace me. His choice will depend on how much I am worth to the company.

The way I see it, if hundreds of people make this decision collectively, it's the same thing. I do think unions have a place in a free market btw. If they didn't, they wouldn't have sprung up. And government should never have broken strikes in the past. If a strike is breaking your company, and you can't find replacements...well it seems to me that you aren't paying the market price for their labor. Either pay up, or go bankrupt.

And if a company fires workers for walking off the job shouuld the union then be able to boycott that company?

Of course. And picket to their heart's content, as long as they aren't on private property or physically harassing people.

Whirlpool bought out its last American competitor, Maytag, and shut down all of Maytag's factories, and good riddance! Why? Because the union Maytag workers made $35,000 a year and Whirlpool pays its non-union help a more realistic $20,000. And if Whirlpool's workers would like to keep their jobs from going to China, they will have to give up another 5 grand a year probably soon. I think it's outrageous that I have to pay inflated prices for a washer that's a piece of crap made by lazy, incompetent, overpaid union workers. The unions have institutionalized laziness, slovenliness, shoddy work and overpayment. These whining babies can live on $20 grand a year if they are careful with their money. But make them earn it! If these lazy slobs represent the so-called dwindling "middle class," then it SHOULD disappear!

Well, in all fairness, Maytag was going gangbusters as recently as 2001. Then the execs took a perfectly good company and started building crap:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north579.html

Two questions,

1. What kind of job do you have? How much do you make?

2. is Bush Lover a troll?

He is someone's gimmick account, yes.

 

[Psychoblues]

Let's cut to the chase, my brothers and sisters. American Republicans are truly scared to death of any organization of peoples that are not inclined towards fear tactics, political fasehoods, corporate domination, military protection against national revolt against the unfairness and truly falseness of their senses of emergency as well as protection for their own unearned riches.

Good God, even an imbecile can see through the ambitions of the Republicans. The question is: Do you believe in America or are you supporting your own demise?

 

[Diuretic]

Unions were around before Smith's Wealth of Nations, so they preceded the idea of the free market. I know you know, I'm just making the point that the guilds were about artisans controlling the price of their labour by controlling their numbers. The same tactic is used today by the medical profession.

There ain't much new under the sun.

 

[Psychoblues]

You obfuscate the subject, doc. Have you anything to say about the post in general?

 

[actsnoblemartin]

For what its worth, im a pro-union guy. I think they are generally a positive and are needed.

Let's cut to the chase, my brothers and sisters. American Republicans are truly scared to death of any organization of peoples that are not inclined towards fear tactics, political fasehoods, corporate domination, military protection against national revolt against the unfairness and truly falseness of their senses of emergency as well as protection for their own unearned riches.

Good God, even an imbecile can see through the ambitions of the Republicans. The question is: Do you believe in America or are you supporting your own demise?

 

[Diuretic]

You obfuscate the subject, doc. Have you anything to say about the post in general?

I've pretty much had my say PB, I have pretty strong views on unions, coming from a union family and being involved in my own union at grassroots and at senior executive level over the years. I'm not uncritical of our unions and their need to re-think themselves, I was interested in the views of posters on unions in the US and while I do shoot my keyboard off now and again I was really wanting to reflect on people's views and not looking to make it a case of right/wrong.

 

[Chips Rafferty]

I've pretty much had my say PB, I have pretty strong views on unions, coming from a union family and being involved in my own union at grassroots and at senior executive level over the years. I'm not uncritical of our unions and their need to re-think themselves, I was interested in the views of posters on unions in the US and while I do shoot my keyboard off now and again I was really wanting to reflect on people's views and not looking to make it a case of right/wrong.

THE LAWD HAS DELIVERED HIM INTO OUR HANDS! BRAISE THE LAWD!!

He stands condemned by his own American denyin’ Commie mouth, folks.

He effectively said he speaks from personal experience, not from Faux Channel or clerical inculcation, like youse well-brought-up biddable Bubbas!

BURN THE WORKER LOVIN" WITCH!!

 

[Psychoblues]

Fair enough, my friend.

I've pretty much had my say PB, I have pretty strong views on unions, coming from a union family and being involved in my own union at grassroots and at senior executive level over the years. I'm not uncritical of our unions and their need to re-think themselves, I was interested in the views of posters on unions in the US and while I do shoot my keyboard off now and again I was really wanting to reflect on people's views and not looking to make it a case of right/wrong.

Companies here are still attempting to murder unionists or at least they are succeeding in ruining the lives of employees that might take notice of or encourage a need for recognition of the American Constitution with it's amendments. Organization on whatever level is a tribute to responsible leadership and acceptable business practice. When the organization is to stifle the rights and general welfare of the working population the organization is doomed for failure. In the short term, however, the profits amassed promote the greed of the leeches that would suck the blood of their own dead mothers to promote the financial comforts of themselves.

What more could I possibly say on this subject?

 

[indago]

It seemed that it was all right for the States to organize into a Union to utilize the strength of numbers against the arbitrary oppressions of Great Britain; or for the manufacturers, mining and railroad corporations to organize into unions, or trusts, to gain greater advantage in the marketplace; but America was not quite ready for the American workingman to organize into a union to gain the strength of numbers to deal with the oppressions of the railroad companies and manufacturers. It is quite humorous to hear, now and then, an American say that he hates unions, and would never be associated with one; obviously not realizing that he participates in one of the greatest Unions in the world; the Union of American States.