American unions

[Diuretic]

In another thread there's a subsidiary discussion that is getting into the ideas of unions. I didn't want to derail the thread by taking the discussion in to unions and labour relations but it's a very interesting topic to me and I've been a senior union official in my union (was for some years, not now) so I'm biased in favour of unions and what they do, but I'm not blind to their faults.

US unions are a strange lot to me. Although they are tied up with the AFL-CIO (an interesting organisation) and are supposed to be close to the Democratic Party, US unions seem to me to be highly apolitical (compared to unions in Europe and Australia I mean). I'm not ignoring Canadian unions which are organised similarly to US unions, so I suppose I should have titled this North American unions but I didn't because I didn't want someone to think it was about the <reaches for tinfoil hat> the coming union of Canada, the US and Mexico.

Are you in a union? Do you think unions do good or are just out to get your dues and give you nothing in return? Are unions needed? Are they effective?
Any opinion at all?

 

[midcan5]

I was in a union for many years, was even shop steward before moving up the food chain. In America, the right wing corporate powers have pretty much destroyed unions. Unions during the last century established our middle class and rose the life boat for everyone. Reagan helped destroy the last remnants of power when he fired the air traffic controllers.

Unions can be good and bad, I can remember defending people I would never hire, but your role was neutral, similar to a lawyer's role. Our wages are still good in many fields but again the more conservative South, the home of so much slavery, never accepted unions. I have lived through many mergers and I have people who do the same job but have a large gap in salary due to the lack of a union. The Northeast in America was the strongest union area.

Right now American workers in many fields live in fear as jobs are being sent overseas and the worker in American is pretty much getting screwed by K street and corporate republicanism. Any more questions ask.

Reagan began the downfall of America in the 80's in my opinion.

The US Economy Since 1980 By Seth Sandronsky

"What makes the U.S. so unlike other rich nations? There is no single answer. At the top of a list is the power of the business class to shape policy-making and the lives of the nation's populace. In The United States Since 1980, economist Dean Baker focuses on the policies that have set the country on a business-friendly path. There have been far-reaching effects.

"For most of the population of the United States, the quarter century from 1980 to 2005 was an era in which they became far less secure economically, and the decrease in security affected their lives and political attitudes," he writes. "It is important to note that this decrease was the result of conscious policy, not the accidental workings of the market.""


http://www.counterpunch.com/sandronsky09292007.html

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0521677556/counterpunchmaga[/ame]

 

[Gunny]

I was in a union for many years, was even shop steward before moving up the food chain. In America, the right wing corporate powers have pretty much destroyed unions. Unions during the last century established our middle class and rose the life boat for everyone. Reagan helped destroy the last remnants of power when he fired the air traffic controllers.

Unions can be good and bad, I can remember defending people I would never hire, but your role was neutral, similar to a lawyer's role. Our wages are still good in many fields but again the more conservative South, the home of so much slavery, never accepted unions. I have lived through many mergers and I have people who do the same job but have a large gap in salary due to the lack of a union. The Northeast in America was the strongest union area.

Right now American workers in many fields live in fear as jobs are being sent overseas and the worker in American is pretty much getting screwed by K street and corporate republicanism. Any more questions ask.

Reagan began the downfall of America in the 80's in my opinion.

The US Economy Since 1980 By Seth Sandronsky

"What makes the U.S. so unlike other rich nations? There is no single answer. At the top of a list is the power of the business class to shape policy-making and the lives of the nation's populace. In The United States Since 1980, economist Dean Baker focuses on the policies that have set the country on a business-friendly path. There have been far-reaching effects.

"For most of the population of the United States, the quarter century from 1980 to 2005 was an era in which they became far less secure economically, and the decrease in security affected their lives and political attitudes," he writes. "It is important to note that this decrease was the result of conscious policy, not the accidental workings of the market.""


http://www.counterpunch.com/sandronsky09292007.html

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0521677556/counterpunchmaga&tag=ff0d01-20

Right wing corporate powers? LMAO. Trade unions have priced themselves out of business.

You want to blame developers and business owners for spending less to get more? And hate to burst your bubble, but there are as many or more left wing developers and business owners here as right wing.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

I wanna talk to you NOW!

Right wing corporate powers? LMAO. Trade unions have priced themselves out of business.

You want to blame developers and business owners for spending less to get more? And hate to burst your bubble, but there are as many or more left wing developers and business owners here as right wing.

 

[Diuretic]

Right wing corporate powers? LMAO. Trade unions have priced themselves out of business.

You want to blame developers and business owners for spending less to get more? And hate to burst your bubble, but there are as many or more left wing developers and business owners here as right wing.

Did unions force that air conditioning business to move to Mexico?

The truth is that unions never priced themselves out of business. The truth is that greedy companies have shifted to places where they can get the product made at lower wage rates then they can sell back into the domestic US market without passing on the cost differential into pricing. They'll drop their prices though when the demand goes down because people can't pay for their goods because they are unemployed because their jobs were exported.

I've been to a collective bargaining training course in Austin, Tx. One of the exercises we did in training was to analyse the employer's true financial situation so that the demand could take into account a reasonable abililty to pay so as to not bankrupt the employer and destroy jobs. The unions didn't send jobs offshore, the bosses did and they still are.

 

[Diuretic]

I was in a union for many years, was even shop steward before moving up the food chain. In America, the right wing corporate powers have pretty much destroyed unions. Unions during the last century established our middle class and rose the life boat for everyone. Reagan helped destroy the last remnants of power when he fired the air traffic controllers.

Unions can be good and bad, I can remember defending people I would never hire, but your role was neutral, similar to a lawyer's role. Our wages are still good in many fields but again the more conservative South, the home of so much slavery, never accepted unions. I have lived through many mergers and I have people who do the same job but have a large gap in salary due to the lack of a union. The Northeast in America was the strongest union area.

Right now American workers in many fields live in fear as jobs are being sent overseas and the worker in American is pretty much getting screwed by K street and corporate republicanism. Any more questions ask.

Reagan began the downfall of America in the 80's in my opinion.

The US Economy Since 1980 By Seth Sandronsky

"What makes the U.S. so unlike other rich nations? There is no single answer. At the top of a list is the power of the business class to shape policy-making and the lives of the nation's populace. In The United States Since 1980, economist Dean Baker focuses on the policies that have set the country on a business-friendly path. There have been far-reaching effects.

"For most of the population of the United States, the quarter century from 1980 to 2005 was an era in which they became far less secure economically, and the decrease in security affected their lives and political attitudes," he writes. "It is important to note that this decrease was the result of conscious policy, not the accidental workings of the market.""


http://www.counterpunch.com/sandronsky09292007.html

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0521677556/counterpunchmaga&tag=ff0d01-20

Thanks for the info on that. I agree with you about Reagan's actions, but there are and again PATCO (?) had some big problems as well. I had to look at a case study and the PATCO case was an example of how not to run a union particularly in a collective bargaining situation.

 

[CSM]

Did unions force that air conditioning business to move to Mexico?

The truth is that unions never priced themselves out of business. The truth is that greedy companies have shifted to places where they can get the product made at lower wage rates then they can sell back into the domestic US market without passing on the cost differential into pricing. They'll drop their prices though when the demand goes down because people can't pay for their goods because they are unemployed because their jobs were exported.

I've been to a collective bargaining training course in Austin, Tx. One of the exercises we did in training was to analyse the employer's true financial situation so that the demand could take into account a reasonable abililty to pay so as to not bankrupt the employer and destroy jobs. The unions didn't send jobs offshore, the bosses did and they still are.

I just have to ask: why sholdn't companies shift to places where they can get a product made at lower wage rates? What can the ewe ess gummint or unions or anyone else do to MAKE them stay in the US?

I know everyone wants to blame the corporations, but what has this country done to make manufacturing/production businesses want to stay in the US?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Ya Unions are great. They can FORCE people to join in order to get a job while FORCING a shop to not hire Union. Totally fair. The large Unions are corrupt as hell and are nothing more than the big Business they were created to fight.

Remind me again how a Union Big Boss and his staff should be paid Corporate wages while ordering their rank and file to strike and live on the leavings of welfare?

They have most definately priced themselves out of work. Rather then looking out for the worker they are all about dues and retirement funds ( that they raid and steal). Given a choice of better benefits or higher wages, guess which one the Bosses pick for the rank and file? Higher wages, then they can increase dues and increase their own fat paychecks.

When a business proves it can not operate and increase wages and rather offers other incentives at the bargaining table US Unions shut them down. Remind me again, what is better for a union man, a paycheck and incentives OR no job? And again when those "negotiators" shut down a company, they don't lose a dime or their jobs.

Then we have the action of Unions to unionize a company, straight up thug tactics, threats, violence and vandalism. During a strike we have more violence, death threats, attempted murder and sometimes murder, vandalism.

When car manufacturing companies can not make reasonable profits because they have to pay employees 50 bucks an hour to turn a screw driver or a wrench, I would say Unions have priced themselves out of work.

Unions are the old bosses and organizations they were created to fight. Want a Union job? Better be prepared to pay someone off to get a union card. Better be ready to toe the party line on any and all issues. Better be willing to accept your retirement funds will be stolen and the big bosses will live like kings. And if you don't? Better have 5 or 6 big armed buddies to walk you around and guard your family and house.

 

[Dr Grump]

Diuretic

I think you have to bear in mind is that US unions are quite a bit different from unions in NZ and Oz (although Oz unions are a bit more militant). Remember the likes of Hoffa etc were involved in unions and it seems US unions are more politicised (which it looks like we disagree on) even than the Oz unions which heavily favour Labor. Also, US unions almost seem part of big business themselves (I don't mean the members, but the people who run them)

 

[Diuretic]

I just have to ask: why sholdn't companies shift to places where they can get a product made at lower wage rates? What can the ewe ess gummint or unions or anyone else do to MAKE them stay in the US?

I know everyone wants to blame the corporations, but what has this country done to make manufacturing/production businesses want to stay in the US?

My point was that it wasn't unions that forced businesses to relocate to low wage countries to manufacture and then export/import into domestic US markets. Corporations do that because they can see that they can make products cheaper in a low-wage country and then sell them back in the domestic market and increase profit (allowing for other costs such as transportation of course).

 

[Diuretic]

Ya Unions are great. They can FORCE people to join in order to get a job while FORCING a shop to not hire Union. Totally fair. The large Unions are corrupt as hell and are nothing more than the big Business they were created to fight.

Isn't that illegal in the US? It's illegal here.

Remind me again how a Union Big Boss and his staff should be paid Corporate wages while ordering their rank and file to strike and live on the leavings of welfare?

Unions aren't run by people who give orders. The rank and file members have to approve any job action, as far as I'm aware. I do know that US unions also have funds which not only help members on strike but also help them in case of a lockout by the employer.

They have most definately priced themselves out of work. Rather then looking out for the worker they are all about dues and retirement funds ( that they raid and steal). Given a choice of better benefits or higher wages, guess which one the Bosses pick for the rank and file? Higher wages, then they can increase dues and increase their own fat paychecks.

I dealt with the allegations about unions pricing themselves out of work. Please try to come up with a counterpoint and not just repeat what has already been dealt with. As for the rest of the paragraph, I'll consider it hyperbole.

The UAW is in the process of shutting down GM now right? And I suppose it was the Steelworkers rather than South Korean mini steel mills that shut down the big US steel corporations was it?

Then we have the action of Unions to unionize a company, straight up thug tactics, threats, violence and vandalism. During a strike we have more violence, death threats, attempted murder and sometimes murder, vandalism.

Yes, towards the workers. How do you think Pinkerton's got its start? They were union-busting thugs hired by the bosses. I tell you, go and rent Matewan and see how the miners were dealt with. Better yet, read a few books on labour history in the US and you'll see why state police forces were created. The employers, the bosses, hired the thugs to attack working people.

When car manufacturing companies can not make reasonable profits because they have to pay employees 50 bucks an hour to turn a screw driver or a wrench, I would say Unions have priced themselves out of work.

And CEOs are earning how much more now as a ratio to someone on the shop floor? How much money does one person actually need? Do they need the fabulous amounts of money they screw boards over to get? As for the 50 an hour to turn a screwdriver, if you can show it to me then I'll concede it.

Unions are the old bosses and organizations they were created to fight. Want a Union job? Better be prepared to pay someone off to get a union card. Better be ready to toe the party line on any and all issues. Better be willing to accept your retirement funds will be stolen and the big bosses will live like kings. And if you don't? Better have 5 or 6 big armed buddies to walk you around and guard your family and house.

Show me the evidence and I'll discuss it. If any of that is happening then obviously it's wrong but if it's not being dealt with then I smell collusion.

 

[Diuretic]

Diuretic

I think you have to bear in mind is that US unions are quite a bit different from unions in NZ and Oz (although Oz unions are a bit more militant). Remember the likes of Hoffa etc were involved in unions and it seems US unions are more politicised (which it looks like we disagree on) even than the Oz unions which heavily favour Labor. Also, US unions almost seem part of big business themselves (I don't mean the members, but the people who run them)

I think Doc half the problem is that unions in the US are not politicised, apart from a few they have virtually no political views. Heck the Teamsters backed Reagan. I mean, how fricking stupid is that? But that reflects the fact that there's not much of a difference between the major parties in the US, they're all about protecting the privileged, just the GOP is up front about it while the Democrats pretend to furrow their brows when they think of the poor folks they are going to help, yeah right.

From the little I know of US labour history I do know that the union movement there has stuffed up. Were you aware that it was Harry Bridges, an Australian, who breathed life in the west coast longshoremen's union because it was so damn moribund? The usual suspects here have come down on unions without realising that ever since Samuel Gompers and John Lewis unions in the US have been largely about accommodating the bosses' wants. They have no ideology beyond a blue collar conservatism. Our friends here would die with one leg in the air if they confronted a union with a progressive approach to it representation.

As an example, the Australian trade union movement has an arm which seeks to help other workers in the region and internationally. It seeks to help unionists in countries where they kill you for trying to organise (oh I forgot, they did that to Joe Hill didn't they?). On the surface it's progressive and humane but it also means that if they can increase the wages and benefits for workers in those low-wage non-unionised economies they may be protecting jobs from being offshored by domestic corporations.

Anyway this isn't about Aus unions, it's about US unions. I feel for decent unionists in the US if the type of responses I've read here are commonplace in the US, no wonder they adopted a protect the system approach. They probably feared being fitted up and executed. Note to my usual detractors, I too can use a bit of hyperbole

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Your uninformed on US laws and Unions. Badly so.

In the US it is illegal to have a non union shop. Meaning a shop that refuses to hire Union members. It is totally legal to have a Union shop, which requires that with in 6 months of being hired you MUST be a union member. Which is a joke, the 6 months is supposed to be to let you get in the Union, the truth is you do not get the job unless the Union tells the Job you can have it.

American Unions ARE political, heavily so and predominately back the Democratic party. They are also crooked as hell, run by mobsters and criminals.

The rank and file do NOT run the Unions. The Union Corporate bosses run the union and get paid until there is no more money in the Union till. Local Unions have to maintain their own strike fund, seperate from the National Union, which does NOT provide a strike fund.

National Union headquarters can and does order strikes with out regard to local rank and file wishes. And again they continue to get paid. They are awash in criminal activity, heavily infiltrated by organized crime.

Some local Unions with no national affiliations are still rank and file run to be sure. And they do work for said rank and file. Not so the Big Unions. That would be why they are losing members and affiliates, not because the Government is cutting them off. And not because Business owners are hurting them.

Companies haven't been involved in intimidation and murder since the 30's. There are no Pinkertons anymore. The laws are heavily in favor of Unions, Companies face heavy legal problems if they do anything like was done in the 20's and 30's.

However, union members routinely attack non union members, shot at and burn homes of Union members that oppose some Union plan. The last big 18 wheeler strike snipers were on overpasses firing on trucks that were not even Union , they killed at least one driver. Others wait on overpasses and drop large rocks or cement on passing trucks.

Rank and file vote against the National bosses at their peril. Mobsters, assassins and thugs routinely kill or harm any local official that goes against the national Interest.

The latest attempt by National Unions was to make all votes open votes, no secret ballots. Why? Because then the thugs and criminals at the meetings when the vote is taken can identify those that disagree and "take care" of the problem. Now they can only do that to the outspoken members dumb enough to get caught talking or acting against the national Union. Which still gets the message across to rank and file.

 

[Diuretic]

Your uninformed on US laws and Unions. Badly so.

In the US it is illegal to have a non union shop. Meaning a shop that refuses to hire Union members. It is totally legal to have a Union shop, which requires that with in 6 months of being hired you MUST be a union member. Which is a joke, the 6 months is supposed to be to let you get in the Union, the truth is you do not get the job unless the Union tells the Job you can have it.

Is that right? In which states? I bet below the Mason-Dixon line it doesn't happen, given there's a predominance of employment at will states.

American Unions ARE political, heavily so and predominately back the Democratic party. They are also crooked as hell, run by mobsters and criminals.

Predominantly back the Democratic Party. They may as well, because the GOP will give them nothing. I found it amazing that a union could endorse a conservative party. As far as crooks are concerned, yes I know the claims and it's an indictment of the union and the broader movement when organised crime is permitted to inflitrate unions. So what's being done about it? Are the FBI investigating using RICO statutes? If so why is it still happening? If they're not, why not?

The rank and file do NOT run the Unions. The Union Corporate bosses run the union and get paid until there is no more money in the Union till. Local Unions have to maintain their own strike fund, seperate from the National Union, which does NOT provide a strike fund.

Then they need to fix that up.

National Union headquarters can and does order strikes with out regard to local rank and file wishes. And again they continue to get paid. They are awash in criminal activity, heavily infiltrated by organized crime.

What's being done about it? See above.

Some local Unions with no national affiliations are still rank and file run to be sure. And they do work for said rank and file. Not so the Big Unions. That would be why they are losing members and affiliates, not because the Government is cutting them off. And not because Business owners are hurting them.

Governments and business hate big unions, they like small, powerless unions.

Companies haven't been involved in intimidation and murder since the 30's. There are no Pinkertons anymore. The laws are heavily in favor of Unions, Companies face heavy legal problems if they do anything like was done in the 20's and 30's.

And rightly so, good to hear it.

However, union members routinely attack non union members, shot at and burn homes of Union members that oppose some Union plan. The last big 18 wheeler strike snipers were on overpasses firing on trucks that were not even Union , they killed at least one driver. Others wait on overpasses and drop large rocks or cement on passing trucks.

With all that organised crime in there I'm not surprised. Why isn't something being done about it?

Rank and file vote against the National bosses at their peril. Mobsters, assassins and thugs routinely kill or harm any local official that goes against the national Interest.

The latest attempt by National Unions was to make all votes open votes, no secret ballots. Why? Because then the thugs and criminals at the meetings when the vote is taken can identify those that disagree and "take care" of the problem. Now they can only do that to the outspoken members dumb enough to get caught talking or acting against the national Union. Which still gets the message across to rank and file.

I'm appalled. How did it get to that point? Who's fostering or allowing this to happen? Why isn't it being attacked?

 

[Gunny]

Did unions force that air conditioning business to move to Mexico?

The truth is that unions never priced themselves out of business. The truth is that greedy companies have shifted to places where they can get the product made at lower wage rates then they can sell back into the domestic US market without passing on the cost differential into pricing. They'll drop their prices though when the demand goes down because people can't pay for their goods because they are unemployed because their jobs were exported.

I've been to a collective bargaining training course in Austin, Tx. One of the exercises we did in training was to analyse the employer's true financial situation so that the demand could take into account a reasonable abililty to pay so as to not bankrupt the employer and destroy jobs. The unions didn't send jobs offshore, the bosses did and they still are.

I disagree. Unions represent the same corporate bureaucracy based on greed they are supposed to be fighting against. And, the HAVE priced themselves out of business.

A business, by law, cannot keep a trade union out if the employees want it. Obviously then, since the unions have become weaker and weaker, the employees DON'T want it. Why? Not enough return for the investment. When you blow away all the smokescreen, the union does not truly represent the individual ... it represents the corporate union.

Obviously, you missed part of what I said in your haste to point a finger at the employers and attempt to exonerate trade unions. I don't agree with EITHER doing what is not in th ebest interest of this nation.

I don't agree with owners/employers exporting jobs ... and I also don't agree with trade unions, in their present state, as being beneficial to the people of this nation.

Try to differentiate that with I am not against the ideal behind trade unions, nor am I against the ideal of capitalism ... both within reason.

 

[Diuretic]

I attended a really interesting lecture in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia, given by a professor from Boston University to a bunch of us at the national trade union movement training centre.

He made the point that a union goes through various stages of development and decay and this was in the context of renewal of unions. I hope I remember this correctly but in a nutshell this was what he said

The union at each stage of its development has it's "heroes" and they reflect the value and purpose of the union.

In the organising phase the heroes are the organisers, the people who sometimes risk their wellbeing by trying to organise workers.

When the union has established itself and is in the position to negotiate its first contract the heroes are the negotiators.

When the union has won contracts for its members and has established itself as a powerful, useful and beneficial organisation the heroes are the people who manage to keep the union ticking along at peak performance.

When the union turns into a bureaucracy that becomes self-serving then the bureaucrats are the heroes.

His point was that when the union honours its bureaucrats then it's time for renewal.

I thought his thesis was very interesting and it made and still makes sense to me.

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

My views on unions are very simple. You should be able to join one and make whatever demands you want, and walk off the job if you want. After all, you already have those rights as an individual, and if everyone in a company decides to exercise their rights all together at once, there should be nothing illegal about that.

Of course, a company should be perfectly free to hire whoever they want, union or non-union; and unless they've signed a legal contract that specifies otherwise, they should be able to fire people for walking off the job or being union members.

 

[Diuretic]

My views on unions are very simple. You should be able to join one and make whatever demands you want, and walk off the job if you want. After all, you already have those rights as an individual, and if everyone in a company decides to exercise their rights all together at once, there should be nothing illegal about that.

Of course, a company should be perfectly free to hire whoever they want, union or non-union; and unless they've signed a legal contract that specifies otherwise, they should be able to fire people for walking off the job or being union members.

If you believe that someone should be able to join a union if they wish and you also believe that you believe a company should be able to fire someone who joins a union isn't that a contradiction?

And if a company fires workers for walking off the job shouuld the union then be able to boycott that company?

 

[Alucard]

My views on unions are very simple. You should be able to join one and make whatever demands you want, and walk off the job if you want. After all, you already have those rights as an individual, and if everyone in a company decides to exercise their rights all together at once, there should be nothing illegal about that.

Of course, a company should be perfectly free to hire whoever they want, union or non-union; and unless they've signed a legal contract that specifies otherwise, they should be able to fire people for walking off the job or being union members.

Stay in school!

 

[Gunny]

If you believe that someone should be able to join a union if they wish and you also believe that you believe a company should be able to fire someone who joins a union isn't that a contradiction?

How is it a contradiction? The person has the choice whether or not he/she wishes to join a union. The company has the choice whether or not it wishes to employ union workers.

And if a company fires workers for walking off the job shouuld the union then be able to boycott that company?

Depends on whether or not the workers are union. Here, the company is unionized or not. Either all employees are unionized, or they are not. If it is a union shop and it fires workers without cause or for reasons in violation of union laws, then of course the union may strike against the company.

If it is an open shop, and fires employees for whatever reason, the union is irrelevant.