America Founded as a Christian Nation

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION

In closing this thread out, I might as well make the points I was going to make. The consummate troll that destroyed ALL his credibility and pretended he was qualified to judge me wants to now be proven wrong in ways that he had not intended. So, we can summarize over 1000 posts in about thirty six paragraphs. Every time the troll posts, we will start over until all three segments appear and then we can repeat them each and every day until he finds someone that might tolerate him. He wants someone to validate him; I'm satisfied with the facts collected here. They simply need to be put into a summation.

In the course of this thread we found a lot of dishonest people, uneducated people, and many partisan hacks on the Internet. The misinformation was much more prevalent than the correct information. The correct information was spread out, so let us begin once more:

The founders did not want a theocracy. They DID want a constitutional Republic dedicated to the principles of Liberty. The First Amendment states:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

The Congress of the United States is NOT the several states. Congress is not the legislatures in the states. Congress is not the direct voice of the citizenry. The fact that every state constitution did have a reference to Christianity before, during and after the ratification of the United States Constitution should signal to any honest observer of history that Christians would not have signed onto any form of government that would marginalize the cultural, ethnic, and national ties that bound us together as a people. That alone makes zero sense.

There was no need to create a theocracy in America because the people rejected the idea of a King. They wanted religious Liberty, but at the same time, they did not want to alter their identity, as a people and they could not fathom a nation without their God. Modern researchers look at the founding documents and the language of the day, falsely proclaiming that there are no references to our Christian identity therein. Really? Let us start with the Declaration of Independence: We have a reference to a "Nature's God," and a "Creator" in the first two paragraphs. That document ends by talking about the "Supreme Judge of the world" AND then the signatories relied on a "firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence." I would submit to you that, based on the language used in those times, that this is in reference to a Christian God. This is confirmed by the language used in John Winthrop's sermon "A Model of Christian Charity" which was referenced in the first post on this thread. Therein, Winthrop used the following language:

"GOD ALMIGHTY in His most holy and wise providence
...glory of his Creator
... Law of Nature"

These are used in the first two pages of the sermon and not one, single, solitary reference to Jesus Christ. Our forefathers did not lace every sentence with HIS holy name just to wear their religion on their sleeves. We check the sermons of the time period and find that the language used in the Declaration of Independence was consistent with the language used to express a belief in a Christian God. AND there is NO WAY you avoid that reliance on "Divine Providence." That is a reference to the divinity. Period.

The next founding document associated with the founding is the 1783 Treaty of Paris. That treaty ended the American Revolutionary War. The signatories to that legal document are bound thereby. Let us see some of its language:

"In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity.

It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the Hearts of the most Serene and most Potent Prince George the Third, by the Grace of God, King of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, Duke of Brunswick and Lunebourg, Arch- Treasurer and Prince Elector of the Holy Roman Empire etc."

And it ends

"Done at Paris, this third day of September in the year of our Lord, one thousand seven hundred and eighty-three.

D. HARTLEY
JOHN ADAMS
B. FRANKLIN
JOHN JAY"

It is the argument of uneducated men that our forefathers had such an aversion to Christianity that they wanted a non-religious people. Yet these alleged secularists, deists, theists, atheists, and other alleged non-believers signed their names to legal documents acknowledging a Christian God.

Part 2 of this series of posts to follow

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION II

Uninformed writers, even a few Christians claim there is no Christian influence in the Constitution of the United States. Because the document does not call for a theocracy; because it is not laced with affirmations regarding Jesus Christ, the see it as being religion neutral. They are either ignorant or dishonest. The document is a reflection of the people it represented.

There is no established religion, but the values of Christians are very well represented in that document. The most glaring example is the ":Sunday exception rule" :

"If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a law, in like Manner as if he had signed it . . . " Article I Section 7

Bring this one up and you get a long harangue about the debates that centered on this with all kinds of theories parading as logic, but just because Masons, secularists, and even American Indian influences were present in the Constitutional Convention, the ONLY thing that matters is the final product.

And, again, ALL of the signatories signed their name to a legal document (the Constitution) acknowledging a Christian God:

"done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independance of the United States of America the Twelfth..."

Admittedly, the intent would be murky except for the fact that the presidents who were founders appointed people to the United States Supreme Court before the American Bar Association was founded in 1875. Sooo... those Justices were were more in sync with the president than they are even today.

John Jay, the FIRST Justice ever appointed (1789) had this to say:

“Providence has given our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” Oct. 12, 1816, in a statement, The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry Johnston, America's God and Country, William Federer, p.318

Source: Quotation by John Jay

There will be many more entries until I finish and put this all in one spot on this thread. The troll be damned.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION III

As we continue on, I find that this may be a daily ritual until the troll is buried under a mountain of truth whilst he makes his case predicated on the words of a single founder - a conflicted man that contradicted his own writings, depending upon where he stood at any given moment.

We have examined the three most important documents: The Declaration of Independence, The Treaty of Paris 1783 that ended the American Revolutionary War and the Constitution, noting the Christian influence in each of these documents. We created a nation of Christians with Christian values as our measuring rod and a legal system that used biblical principles to differentiate right from wrong; good from evil; etc.


I also pointed out that the presidents that we count as founding fathers nominated men to the United States Supreme Court to interpret the law. the only thing more authoritative than their opinions about the law were actual court rulings. So, until we reach the time when an actual ruling is made, their opinions are more authoritative than even select quotes from the founders since they left the United States Supreme Court in charge of interpreting what the Constitution means. I've quoted the first United States Supreme Court Justice ever appointed. Let's do a couple more:

John Rutledge would be the second person to be nominated, but he doesn't count as he was not confirmed by the Senate. Then came Oliver Ellsworth. According to Wikipedia:

"Once the Judiciary Act was adopted by the Senate, Ellsworth sponsored the Senate's acceptance of the Bill of Rights promoted by Madison in the House of Representatives. Significantly, Madison sponsored the Judiciary Act in the House at the same time. Combined, the Judiciary Act and Bill of Rights gave the Constitution the "teeth" that had been missing in the Articles of Confederation. Judicial Review guaranteed the federal government's sovereignty, whereas the Bill of Rights guaranteed the protection of states and citizens from the misuse of this sovereignty by the federal government.

...However, with the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1865, seventy-five years later, the Bill of Rights could be brought to bear at all levels of government as interpreted by the judiciary with final appeal to the Supreme Court. Needless to say, this had not been the original intention of either Madison or Ellsworth.

Oliver Ellsworth - Wikipedia

This is important to note because before the illegal ratification of the 14th Amendment, many states required office holders to take an oath that they believed in the Christian faith. Since it was an oath and NOT a test, this was constitutional and the states remained culturally Christian; hence, we were a Christian nation.

The Fourth Chief Justice, nominated by John Adams was the very articulate John Marshall. He is the Justice who once said that "the power to tax is the power to destroy." He also said that "a legislative act contrary to the Constitution is not law." The quote I'm most impressed with relative to this conversation is:

“What are the maxims of Democracy? A strict observance of justice and public faith, and a steady adherence to virtue.”

Source: Top 30 quotes of JOHN MARSHALL famous quotes and sayings | inspringquotes.us

John Marshall, appointed by founder and framer John Adams had this to say:


"No person, I believe, questions the importance of religion to the happiness of man even during his existence in this world. It has at all times employed his most serious meditation, and had a decided influence on his conduct.

The American population is entirely Christian, and with us, Christianity and Religion are identified. It would be strange, indeed, if with such a people, our institutions did not presuppose Christianity, and did not often refer to it, and exhibit relations with it."

John Marshall: The American population is entirely Christian, and with us, Christianity and Religion are identified » Sons of Liberty Media

I'm an anti-federalist, but there is no doubt that Marshall understood that, as a people, the United States IS a Christian nation.

We are not done.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION IV

In this summation of the founding of America as a Christian nation, we've been looking at the United States Supreme Court Justices. We covered the Chief Justices that the founders / framers appointed and now I'm starting with some of those that Washington appointed. The first one, William Cushing provides a counter balance to Jefferson, who was just one founder. According to Wikipedia about Cushing:

" He generally held a nationalist view typically in line with the views of the Federalist Party, and often disagreed with Thomas Jefferson's Democratic-Republicans."

William Cushing - Wikipedia

I found little about Cushing save of this in a very brief look into his background:

"American jurist who was the first appointee to the U.S. Supreme Court.

Cushing graduated from Harvard in 1751"

William Cushing | United States jurist


Harvard was founded as a Christian college. According to Wikipedia:

"The early motto of Harvard was Veritas Christo et Ecclesiae, meaning "Truth for Christ and the Church". In the early classes, half the graduates became ministers (though by the 1760s the proportion was down to 15%) and ten of Harvard's first twelve presidents were ministers. Systematic theological instruction was inaugurated in 1721 and by 1827 Harvard became a nucleus of theological teaching in New England"

History of Harvard University - Wikipedia

Safe to say Cushing was influenced by Christianity.

James Wilson, another Washington Supreme Court appointee:

"He changed his practicing religion from Presbyterian to Episcopalian"and in 1779 became the advocate general for France in America.

James Wilson | The Society of the Descendants of the Signers of the Declaration of Independence

Although John Blair received a Christian education, his grand uncle being the founder of William and Mary College, Blair was a Freemason, so score one for the "Deists."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Blair_Jr.

As we make this journey, we aren't so much concerned as to who was what so much as we are concerned with the final product. What did America become?

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION V


I'm still working to show WHO the founders / framers nominated to the United States Supreme Court. And very quickly, picking back up with Washington, who unfortunately was a Freemason (so not very objective on some spiritual matters), he nonetheless nominated James Iredell who is described as:

"The grandson of a clergyman, he was a devout Anglican throughout his life and his writings display an interest in spirituality and metaphysics beyond a simple attachment to organized religion."

James Iredell - Wikipedia

Thomas Johnson was only on the job 163 days so that is insignificant.

William Paterson, another Washington appointee said:



“Religion and morality...{are} necessary to good government, good order, and good laws.” (Maeva Marcus. The Documentary History of the Supreme Court of the United States 1789-1800. New York: Columbia University Press. 1988. Vol III pg 436)
Secondary Source: http://camphillchurch.org/publication_files/the-coping-christian---pt-4.pdf

Samuel Chase (the last of Washington's Supreme Court Justices) was born April 17, 1741, the son of Anglican clergyman Rev. Thomas Chase, and was home-schooled till age 18.

... he founded a Maryland chapter of the Sons of Liberty to protest The Stamp Act of 1765 and the British Government's usurpation of citizen's rights. He was also a signer of the Declaration of Independence.

Justice Samuel Chase rendered the court's decision in the Maryland Supreme Court case of Runkel v. Winemiller, 1799:

" Religion is of general and public concern, and on its support depend, in great measure, the peace and good order of government, the safety and happiness of the people.

By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion;

and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty."

Supreme Court Justice Samuel Chase, 1799, "the Christian religion is the established religion, and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing..."

So, Maryland was officially declared Christian - seems the states were not quite familiar with that so - called "separation of church and state" at the STATE level.

Ant that was Washington's court nominees. Let's look at another president's nominees in my next installment.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION VI

The sad part of having to keep repeating this is that the troll and his sockpuppets have not responded to the OP one single time. This is not about what they think America is today; it's not about a USA Theorcacy or their delusions of a secular nation... AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION.

Let us continue on:

Alfred Moore was one of Jefferson's picks on the United States Supreme Court.

"Moore is noted for having written just one opinion for the Court during his term of service:"

Alfred Moore - Wikipedia

The rest of the Justices and their religious affiliation is located at:

Religion of the Supreme Court

The most notable of the United States Supreme Court Justices that were close to the founders / framers was Joseph Story. Story was what legends are made of. He was nominated to the Court by President Madison.

"His father was Dr. Elisha Story, a member of the Sons of Liberty who took part in the Boston Tea Party in 1773

He graduated from Harvard ( A Christian college) in 1798, second in his class behind William Ellery Channing; he noted that his graduation was with "many bitter tears

...In November 15, 1811, at the age of 32 years, 58 days, Story became—and, as of 2019 remains—the youngest person nominated to serve on the U.S. Supreme Court."

Joseph Story - Wikipedia

The note I end this portion of the thread is a quote from one of Story's rulings:

" Christianity...is not to be maliciously and openly reviled and blasphemed against, to the annoyance of believers or the injury of the public....

It is unnecessary for us, however, to consider the establishment of a school or college, for the propagation of...Deism, or any other form of infidelity.

Such a case is not to be presumed to exist in a Christian country..."
Vidal v. Girard's Executors, 1844

Imagine a Supreme Court Justice like THIS! -Justice Joseph Story "The real object of the FIRST AMENDMENT was not to...advance Mohammedanism...or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity, but to..."

It seems that I keep finding cases to dismantle the liberals arguments with

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION VII

The more the troll posts, the more I will challenge his world view. I do not read his posts, so he can pound sand while we talk about ONE subject... America was founded as a Christian Nation.

We've looked at the basic documents that established the United States of America: the Declaration of Independence, the 1783 Treaty of Paris (which ended the American Revolutionary War), and the Constitution. We've seen that these documents were connected to Christianity - mostly that the signatories acknowledged a Christian God.

We've witnessed the legal opinions of most of the jurists during the earliest years of the Republic. No president (except Thomas Jefferson) ever nominated a Supreme Court Justice of which they disagreed with across the board. Now, we move to the laws. Instead of reinventing the wheel, I like citing the Holy Trinity case in which the United States Supreme Court said:

"But, beyond all these matters, no purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation. The commission to Christopher Columbus, prior to his sail westward, is from 'Ferdinand and Isabella, by the grace of God, king and queen of Castile,' etc., and recites that 'it is hoped that by God's assistance some of the continents and islands in the ocean will be discovered,' etc.

...Coming nearer to the present time, the declaration of independence recognizes the presence of the Divine in human affairs in these words: 'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that thet are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.' 'We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare,' etc.; 'And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

...If we examine the constitutions of the various states, we find in them a constant recognition of religious obligations. Every constitution of every one of the 44 states contains language which, either directly or by clear implication, recognizes a profound reverence for religion, and an assumption that its influence in all human affairs is essential to the well-being of the community.

...Even the constitution of the United States, which is supposed to have little touch upon the private life of the individual, contains in the first amendment a declaration common to the constitutions of all the states, as follows: 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' etc.,—and also provides in article 1, § 7, (a provision common to many constitutions,) that the executive shall have 10 days (Sundays excepted) within which to determine whether he will approve or veto a bill.

There is no dissonance in these declarations. There is a universal language pervading them all, having one meaning. They affirm and reaffirm that this is a religious nation. These are not individual sayings, declarations of private persons. They are organic utterances. They speak the voice of the entire people.

...These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation." Holy Trinity v. United States, 143 U.S.457 (1892)

RECTOR, ETC., OF HOLY TRINITY CHURCH v. UNITED STATES. | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute

Between all those ellipsis in my quotes lies an abundance of proof of our Christian heritage. In the First Amendment Congress had no need to establish a religion. The people of the several states (44 of them at the time) had accepted biblical principles for the basis of how they conducted their lives. All that the federal government did, according to the judges who weighed in on the question, was to put all denominations on an equal footing. As Samuel Chase ruled in 1799 in Runkel v. Winemiller:

" Religion is of general and public concern, and on its support depend, in great measure, the peace and good order of government, the safety and happiness of the people.

By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion;

and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty." Runkel vs. Winemiller, et. al. 4 H. & McH. 429 (1799)

https://cite.case.law/h-mch/4/429/

Samuel Chase was nominated to the United States Supreme Court by George Washington and he served from 1796 to 1811. He was one of the most influential jurists in American history.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION VIII

I believe that every person has a Right to their own opinions, but no man has a Right to wrong in his facts. The facts that we've produced thus far is that the founders / framers did, in fact, make Christianity a part of our culture and ethnic identity. By the adoption of the common law we made Christianity a part of our legal system.

The facts are that the founders / framers should have known what they were saying and doing. Today we have court rulings to rely on in the interpretation of what the laws was WHEN AMERICA WAS FOUNDED. That is not to be confused with what happened later on. The topic of this thread is America was founded as a Christian nation and nothing less, nothing more. The efforts by our resident troll, posting under various board names, cannot negate the facts. I'm not presenting my opinions until I've made the requisite points that the first 1000 posts necessitated.

Critics will try to seize upon the weaknesses of human beings and according to a study done in 2011:

"Americans change religious affiliation early and often. In total, about half of American adults have changed religious affiliation at least once during their lives. Most people who change their religion leave their childhood faith before age 24, and many of those who change religion do so more than once."

Faith in Flux

Many of the founders / framers changed their beliefs several times during this period they call "the Enlightenment." Still, they remained loyal to their roots. Thomas Jefferson took an oath with a "firm reliance on Divine Protection" which I demonstrated is consistent with a Christian God and the language used as such by many ministers of Jefferson's time. Then we have the United States Supreme Court noting the accuracy of that observation. That is pretty compelling evidence.

Jefferson worked on the state constitution of Virginia which, in the end contained the following language:

"SEC. 16. That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other."

Constitution of Virginia, 1776

If Jefferson did not believe in it, why in the Hell did he help write it? And, as governor, he had to take an oath that contains the phrase "So help me God."

Founders Online: 98. A Bill Prescribing the Oath of Fidelity, and the Oaths of …

So, in 1776 he has a firm reliance on Divine Providence AND urges all his fellow Virginians to practice "Christian forbearance" (sic.) And he takes oath saying "So help me God" AND he is willing to buy a Bible for anyone who cannot afford to. He may have spent a lot of his life mad at organized religion and denouncing the pet tenets of the day, but he was always conflicted and always doing a lot of soul searching. It's unfortunate that the secularists, theists, deists, and atheists cannot accept that.

Then there was Benjamin Franklin, the man who signed the 1783 Treaty of Paris acknowledging the Divinity. He was the smartest American that ever lived. Franklin was the man who said America would "ultimately be ruled by tyrants or ruled by God."

Franklin, like Washington and a few others, was influenced by Freemasonry. Freemasonry is connected to the Illuminati. In my twenties, I was both a Christian AND an officer in a satellite organization with ties to these groups. So, I can relate to the confusion and it caused me to be all over the map at different points in my life. At the end of the day, what matters is what the final product was.

 

[anynameyouwish]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION VIII

I believe that every person has a Right to their own opinions, but no man has a Right to wrong in his facts. The facts that we've produced thus far is that the founders / framers did, in fact, make Christianity a part of our culture and ethnic identity. By the adoption of the common law we made Christianity a part of our legal system.

The facts are that the founders / framers should have known what they were saying and doing. Today we have court rulings to rely on in the interpretation of what the laws was WHEN AMERICA WAS FOUNDED. That is not to be confused with what happened later on. The topic of this thread is America was founded as a Christian nation and nothing less, nothing more. The efforts by our resident troll, posting under various board names, cannot negate the facts. I'm not presenting my opinions until I've made the requisite points that the first 1000 posts necessitated.

Critics will try to seize upon the weaknesses of human beings and according to a study done in 2011:

"Americans change religious affiliation early and often. In total, about half of American adults have changed religious affiliation at least once during their lives. Most people who change their religion leave their childhood faith before age 24, and many of those who change religion do so more than once."

Faith in Flux

Many of the founders / framers changed their beliefs several times during this period they call "the Enlightenment." Still, they remained loyal to their roots. Thomas Jefferson took an oath with a "firm reliance on Divine Protection" which I demonstrated is consistent with a Christian God and the language used as such by many ministers of Jefferson's time. Then we have the United States Supreme Court noting the accuracy of that observation. That is pretty compelling evidence.

Jefferson worked on the state constitution of Virginia which, in the end contained the following language:

"SEC. 16. That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other."

Constitution of Virginia, 1776

If Jefferson did not believe in it, why in the Hell did he help write it? And, as governor, he had to take an oath that contains the phrase "So help me God."

Founders Online: 98. A Bill Prescribing the Oath of Fidelity, and the Oaths of …

So, in 1776 he has a firm reliance on Divine Providence AND urges all his fellow Virginians to practice "Christian forbearance" (sic.) And he takes oath saying "So help me God" AND he is willing to buy a Bible for anyone who cannot afford to. He may have spent a lot of his life mad at organized religion and denouncing the pet tenets of the day, but he was always conflicted and always doing a lot of soul searching. It's unfortunate that the secularists, theists, deists, and atheists cannot accept that.

Then there was Benjamin Franklin, the man who signed the 1783 Treaty of Paris acknowledging the Divinity. He was the smartest American that ever lived. Franklin was the man who said America would "ultimately be ruled by tyrants or ruled by God."

Franklin, like Washington and a few others, was influenced by Freemasonry. Freemasonry is connected to the Illuminati. In my twenties, I was both a Christian AND an officer in a satellite organization with ties to these groups. So, I can relate to the confusion and it caused me to be all over the map at different points in my life. At the end of the day, what matters is what the final product was.

The USA was not founded as a christian nation.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION VIII

I believe that every person has a Right to their own opinions, but no man has a Right to wrong in his facts. The facts that we've produced thus far is that the founders / framers did, in fact, make Christianity a part of our culture and ethnic identity. By the adoption of the common law we made Christianity a part of our legal system.

The facts are that the founders / framers should have known what they were saying and doing. Today we have court rulings to rely on in the interpretation of what the laws was WHEN AMERICA WAS FOUNDED. That is not to be confused with what happened later on. The topic of this thread is America was founded as a Christian nation and nothing less, nothing more. The efforts by our resident troll, posting under various board names, cannot negate the facts. I'm not presenting my opinions until I've made the requisite points that the first 1000 posts necessitated.

Critics will try to seize upon the weaknesses of human beings and according to a study done in 2011:

"Americans change religious affiliation early and often. In total, about half of American adults have changed religious affiliation at least once during their lives. Most people who change their religion leave their childhood faith before age 24, and many of those who change religion do so more than once."

Faith in Flux

Many of the founders / framers changed their beliefs several times during this period they call "the Enlightenment." Still, they remained loyal to their roots. Thomas Jefferson took an oath with a "firm reliance on Divine Protection" which I demonstrated is consistent with a Christian God and the language used as such by many ministers of Jefferson's time. Then we have the United States Supreme Court noting the accuracy of that observation. That is pretty compelling evidence.

Jefferson worked on the state constitution of Virginia which, in the end contained the following language:

"SEC. 16. That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other."

Constitution of Virginia, 1776

If Jefferson did not believe in it, why in the Hell did he help write it? And, as governor, he had to take an oath that contains the phrase "So help me God."

Founders Online: 98. A Bill Prescribing the Oath of Fidelity, and the Oaths of …

So, in 1776 he has a firm reliance on Divine Providence AND urges all his fellow Virginians to practice "Christian forbearance" (sic.) And he takes oath saying "So help me God" AND he is willing to buy a Bible for anyone who cannot afford to. He may have spent a lot of his life mad at organized religion and denouncing the pet tenets of the day, but he was always conflicted and always doing a lot of soul searching. It's unfortunate that the secularists, theists, deists, and atheists cannot accept that.

Then there was Benjamin Franklin, the man who signed the 1783 Treaty of Paris acknowledging the Divinity. He was the smartest American that ever lived. Franklin was the man who said America would "ultimately be ruled by tyrants or ruled by God."

Franklin, like Washington and a few others, was influenced by Freemasonry. Freemasonry is connected to the Illuminati. In my twenties, I was both a Christian AND an officer in a satellite organization with ties to these groups. So, I can relate to the confusion and it caused me to be all over the map at different points in my life. At the end of the day, what matters is what the final product was.

The USA was not founded as a christian nation.

You ain't fooling nobody NOTFOOINGANYONE. You are a desperate troll who is getting owned. If the mods object after posting under multiple accounts, you may not be here any longer. I'll give you your daily acknowledgements.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

ACKNOWLEDGING THE TROLL 11 Feb 2020 Update

aka anynameyouwish, Breezewood and the regular troll - all one true and everliving TROLL.

I made no such claims. NONE OF NOTFOOLEDBYW'S CRITICISMS REFLECT MY VIEWS; NOTHING HE SAYS IS TRUE This list of NOTFOOLEDBYW updated today and an addendum follows in the next post...

NOTFOOLEDBYW - YOU ARE A FILTHY LIAR. SEE THE UPDATES THAT PROVE SAME. Bolded for everyone's convenience

NOTFOOLEDBYW'S FINAL RESPONSE

This thread is now 1158 posts long as I begin this response. Of those, NOTFOOLEDBYW has made a total of 213 posts. They are posts # 78, 80, 111, 113, 118, 126, 140, 154, 157, 158, 159, 162, 172, 174, 179, 189, 192, 195, 196, 197, 203, 204, 205, 212, 220, 224, 225, 232, 233, 234, 235, 240, 240, 241, 242, 243, 246, 247, 254, 255, 256, 267, 279, 280, 285, 290, 296, 297, 302, 307, 309, 318, 321, 328, 330, 335, 339, 340, 341, 345, 347, 350, 350, 351, 352, 367, 370, 373, 381, 393, 394, 399, 401, 404, 411, 412, 413, 420, 421, 425, 426, 429, 430, 431, 432, 468, 485, 500, 504, 508, 512, 516, 519, 525, 527, 537, 539, 541, 546, 549, 551, 554, 557, 559, 561, 563, 565, 566, 569, 570, 574, 577, 581, 582, 587, 589, 606, 607, 610, 626, 630, 636, 642, 644, 646, 684, 688, 699, 700, 703, 704, 707, 708, 709, 715, 716, 718, 724, 725, 730, 740, 744, 746, 747, 750, 753, 754, 755, 761, 762, 769, 774, 782, 7998, 800, ... that is 155 posts out of 805, 807, 812, 824, 827, 830, 831, 832, 844, 847, 860, 872, 899, 904,913, 929, 936, 943, 946, 951, 965, 973, 986, 999, 1011, 1018,1033, 1037, 1039, 1040, 1047, 1049, 1052, 1063, 1074, 1076, 1079, 1080, 1083, 1090, 1096, 1097, 1108, 1111, 1124, 1132, 1140, 1146, 1147, 1152, 1153, 1154

In virtually every post NOTFOOLEDBYW has insulted posters, called them liars, misrepresented people, and NOBODY has defended his positions.


By contrast, NOTFOOLEDBYW has been challenged by numerous posters to whom NOTFOOLEDBYW has called liars, fools, morons, and accused them of all manner of wrongdoing. Those posters responded a total of 137 times in posts: #120, 130, 134, 167, 169,174, 176, 175, 176, 180, 185, 206, 207, 250, 282, 299, 346, 346, 354, 396, 397, 403, 405, 406, 407, 414, 415, 416, 424, 427, 428, 433, 434, 438, 439, 440, 445, 446, 447, 448, 450, 451, 452, 453, 454, 455, 456, 457, 458, 460, 461, 464, 465, 466, 467, 469, 470, 472, 474, 476, 483, 484, 490, 491, 492, 493, 494, 496, 497, 498, 499, 501, 502, 517, 518, 521, 526, 528, 531, 558, 562, 564, 567, 568, 571, 573, 576, 578, 579, 588, 591, 593, 594, 595, 596, 598, 599, 600, 603, 608, 612, 613, 615, 618, 627, 628, 629, 633, 645, 648, 653, 658, 665, 668, 698, 701, 705, 706, 711, 722, 723, 726, 751, 764, 765, 779, 834, 837, 839, 954, 971, 974, 976, 1002, 1016, 1019 - and I have not recorded the people who have disagreed with him past this point

I have been obliged to respond to NOTFOOLEDBYW more than 100 times personally. There are roughly 500 posts that have revolved around this one poster. TO DATE NOBODY IS SUPPORTING HIS CRAP AND HE'S EVEN SUNK SO LOW AS TO HAVE SOCKPUPPET ACCOUNTS.

One poster or another has successfully defeated each and every argument he brings to the table. He is now remaining, claiming I lied about Thomas Jefferson - as if that would change the balance of this discussion. Here is my position:

1) When other posters began discussing this as a conversation rather than a point by point, let's prove everything, I got conversational. I quoted Thomas Jefferson from an unnamed source in an online general conversation.

I really do not want to restart any conversations with THIS idiot about Thomas Jefferson and my quote. But, I cut and pasted the quote as I found it on the Internet:

http://peace2you.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Faith-of-Founding-Fathers1.pdf

If you look a few quotes down, you can see where I got it from. When that troll made a big deal out of my inadvertent faux pas of leaving out the link, I looked up the book from where the quote was obtained and put it in post #552. I DIDN'T LIE AND NOTFOOLEDBYW IS A ROTTEN, FILTHY, STINKING, LIAR. ALL of his posts were responded to honestly and openly. Check his posts... he's quoting me and it's there.


2) NOTFOOLEDBYW seized upon that accusing me of posting a lie; even claiming that I edited my source. I did not. I did, however, look at where my source got their material and I quoted where it could be found. I did not lie

3) Regardless of how that material reads, the bottom line is Thomas Jefferson said he was a Christian and I took him at his word as his early life indicates such. Jefferson states, and it was quoted on this thread, that his life experiences changed his outlook. Nothing has changed what Jefferson said at that point in his life

4) Regardless of how many times founders did or said one thing or another, I look at the bottom line and if over half the posts here are either one man arguing against those points compared to the scores of posts disagreeing with him, there is no point to prove. If this matters to you and you want to wade through who said what, you have each post - minus my own (which is unnecessary since all those people who agreed with me either quoted the relevant parts and / or the post itself. My point here is I did not lie and every time that troll posts, I will simply cut and paste this response (that took some hours to research just for him.)

If he still wants to call me a liar, he can do it to my face. Otherwise, he has been successfully defeated by other posters to the point that nothing I have to say would be relevant anyway. IF there are any other points to be addressed, I will be happy to entertain them, just not by the resident troll. The dumb ass needs to read. This post refutes his account of what happened.. I know because I'm the one who did it. I copied and pasted the fucking quote as it appeared and no amount of political jockeying will change that. It's over dumbass

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AN ADDENDUM TO NOTFOOLEDBYW AKA anynameyouwish and "BREEZEWOOD" if you are following that whizzing contest

Just in case anyone has followed the saga of the poster known as NOTFOOLEDBYW, I want to take a moment to acknowledge his vicious attacks on me that, as I type those were 187 out of the 1025 posts. He received 137 negative responses for his attacks and a single hit and run poster (which is against the rules) took a swipe at me (and that violated the rules in this zone.)

NOTFOOLEDBYW's very first post (#78) was to take a swipe at Christianity with a claim that it was bullshit (sic.) The post did not address the OP; it was just an off topic insult. If his post was not relative to the OP (it was not) then he deliberately, knowingly and purposely insulted me.

NOTFOOLEDBYW has made it his mission to claim I insulted him first. My position is that his post did not address the OP, it started the thread on a downward spiral. So, when I said "ignorance is bliss," he comes unglued for 187 posts so far. His entire argument rests on an accusation regarding what "I" said. I left a quote from a source. The quote is italicized and in quotation marks AND the title and page of a book, but no link. It should be apparent to any idiot that those were not my words.

NOTFOOLEDBYW made a big deal about it, so I researched the book and posted the title and everything needed to locate it on the page my link said it was on. Then NOTFOOLEDBYW issued a challenge in post # 831. He says:

"Can anyone find a direct quote by Thomas Jefferson that reads this way in these exact words. If you do I will no longer post to this thread.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

In post # 838 I accepted his challenge and repeated the quote I had from the Internet:

http://peace2you.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Faith-of-Founding-Fathers1.pdf

NOTFOOLEDBYW's argument is that I lied. Pardon my language, but you have to be one dumb fuck not to understand that a quote in quotation marks AND in italics are not my words, but a quote. Consequently, it is dishonest to say I lied. I provided the source and there is no requirement in NOTFOOLEDBYW'S challenge that says the quote must be accurate or fit some standard. NOTFOOLEDBYW is a dishonorable liar that did not keep his word.

And so this saga has caused NOTFOOLEDBYW to misrepresent my positions, lie, complain, and attempt to derail this thread to the point that correll wants to lock the thread. I simply don't want to give one troll that kind of power over me. NOTFOOLEDBYW has gotten 137 negative responses and he has called posters here morons, liars, fools, LUNATICS, etc. He wanted to be the poster boy for the secularists or maybe humanists. The best he could do is waste a tremendous amount of bandwidth over one word. Ironically, with or without that word, it does not change the facts that were brought to the table AND WHOLLY IRRELEVANT TO THE OP.

SOCKPUPPET ACCOUNTS, DAILY HARASSMENT, THE GUY IS A COWARD AND NOT A MAN OF HIS WORD

 

[Porter Rockwell]

SEE POSTS 1261 THROUGH 1268 AND YOU WON'T BE SUBJECT TO THE TROLLING

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#1274 reply to #1271.

NONE OF NOTFOOLEDBYW'S CRITICISMS REFLECT MY VIEWS; NOTHING HE SAYS IS TRUE

I still say my very first sentence in my very first post on this thread is true.

#78.

There were Christians involved in the founding and revolt against the King,

I wonder why Porter Rockwell thinks it isn’t.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#1275 reply to #1250.

He wants someone to validate him;

Actually that is not true. The fact that you do not read my posts validates the fact that you cannot dispute, deny, disprove, refute one single post and argument I’ve made is validation enough.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

#1274 reply to #1271.

NONE OF NOTFOOLEDBYW'S CRITICISMS REFLECT MY VIEWS; NOTHING HE SAYS IS TRUE

I still say my very first sentence in my very first post on this thread is true.

#78.

There were Christians involved in the founding and revolt against the King,

I wonder why Porter Rockwell thinks it isn’t.

You first post was opinionated and ran off the target audience and nobody gives a shit what you have to say... neither do I.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

ACKNOWLEDGING THE TROLL 11 Feb 2020 Update

aka anynameyouwish, Breezewood and the regular troll - all one true and everliving TROLL.

I made no such claims. NONE OF NOTFOOLEDBYW'S CRITICISMS REFLECT MY VIEWS; NOTHING HE SAYS IS TRUE This list of NOTFOOLEDBYW updated today and an addendum follows in the next post...

NOTFOOLEDBYW - YOU ARE A FILTHY LIAR. SEE THE UPDATES THAT PROVE SAME. Bolded for everyone's convenience

NOTFOOLEDBYW'S FINAL RESPONSE

This thread is now 1158 posts long as I begin this response. Of those, NOTFOOLEDBYW has made a total of 213 posts. They are posts # 78, 80, 111, 113, 118, 126, 140, 154, 157, 158, 159, 162, 172, 174, 179, 189, 192, 195, 196, 197, 203, 204, 205, 212, 220, 224, 225, 232, 233, 234, 235, 240, 240, 241, 242, 243, 246, 247, 254, 255, 256, 267, 279, 280, 285, 290, 296, 297, 302, 307, 309, 318, 321, 328, 330, 335, 339, 340, 341, 345, 347, 350, 350, 351, 352, 367, 370, 373, 381, 393, 394, 399, 401, 404, 411, 412, 413, 420, 421, 425, 426, 429, 430, 431, 432, 468, 485, 500, 504, 508, 512, 516, 519, 525, 527, 537, 539, 541, 546, 549, 551, 554, 557, 559, 561, 563, 565, 566, 569, 570, 574, 577, 581, 582, 587, 589, 606, 607, 610, 626, 630, 636, 642, 644, 646, 684, 688, 699, 700, 703, 704, 707, 708, 709, 715, 716, 718, 724, 725, 730, 740, 744, 746, 747, 750, 753, 754, 755, 761, 762, 769, 774, 782, 7998, 800, ... that is 155 posts out of 805, 807, 812, 824, 827, 830, 831, 832, 844, 847, 860, 872, 899, 904,913, 929, 936, 943, 946, 951, 965, 973, 986, 999, 1011, 1018,1033, 1037, 1039, 1040, 1047, 1049, 1052, 1063, 1074, 1076, 1079, 1080, 1083, 1090, 1096, 1097, 1108, 1111, 1124, 1132, 1140, 1146, 1147, 1152, 1153, 1154

In virtually every post NOTFOOLEDBYW has insulted posters, called them liars, misrepresented people, and NOBODY has defended his positions.


By contrast, NOTFOOLEDBYW has been challenged by numerous posters to whom NOTFOOLEDBYW has called liars, fools, morons, and accused them of all manner of wrongdoing. Those posters responded a total of 137 times in posts: #120, 130, 134, 167, 169,174, 176, 175, 176, 180, 185, 206, 207, 250, 282, 299, 346, 346, 354, 396, 397, 403, 405, 406, 407, 414, 415, 416, 424, 427, 428, 433, 434, 438, 439, 440, 445, 446, 447, 448, 450, 451, 452, 453, 454, 455, 456, 457, 458, 460, 461, 464, 465, 466, 467, 469, 470, 472, 474, 476, 483, 484, 490, 491, 492, 493, 494, 496, 497, 498, 499, 501, 502, 517, 518, 521, 526, 528, 531, 558, 562, 564, 567, 568, 571, 573, 576, 578, 579, 588, 591, 593, 594, 595, 596, 598, 599, 600, 603, 608, 612, 613, 615, 618, 627, 628, 629, 633, 645, 648, 653, 658, 665, 668, 698, 701, 705, 706, 711, 722, 723, 726, 751, 764, 765, 779, 834, 837, 839, 954, 971, 974, 976, 1002, 1016, 1019 - and I have not recorded the people who have disagreed with him past this point

I have been obliged to respond to NOTFOOLEDBYW more than 100 times personally. There are roughly 500 posts that have revolved around this one poster. TO DATE NOBODY IS SUPPORTING HIS CRAP AND HE'S EVEN SUNK SO LOW AS TO HAVE SOCKPUPPET ACCOUNTS.

One poster or another has successfully defeated each and every argument he brings to the table. He is now remaining, claiming I lied about Thomas Jefferson - as if that would change the balance of this discussion. Here is my position:

1) When other posters began discussing this as a conversation rather than a point by point, let's prove everything, I got conversational. I quoted Thomas Jefferson from an unnamed source in an online general conversation.

I really do not want to restart any conversations with THIS idiot about Thomas Jefferson and my quote. But, I cut and pasted the quote as I found it on the Internet:

http://peace2you.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Faith-of-Founding-Fathers1.pdf

If you look a few quotes down, you can see where I got it from. When that troll made a big deal out of my inadvertent faux pas of leaving out the link, I looked up the book from where the quote was obtained and put it in post #552. I DIDN'T LIE AND NOTFOOLEDBYW IS A ROTTEN, FILTHY, STINKING, LIAR. ALL of his posts were responded to honestly and openly. Check his posts... he's quoting me and it's there.


2) NOTFOOLEDBYW seized upon that accusing me of posting a lie; even claiming that I edited my source. I did not. I did, however, look at where my source got their material and I quoted where it could be found. I did not lie

3) Regardless of how that material reads, the bottom line is Thomas Jefferson said he was a Christian and I took him at his word as his early life indicates such. Jefferson states, and it was quoted on this thread, that his life experiences changed his outlook. Nothing has changed what Jefferson said at that point in his life

4) Regardless of how many times founders did or said one thing or another, I look at the bottom line and if over half the posts here are either one man arguing against those points compared to the scores of posts disagreeing with him, there is no point to prove. If this matters to you and you want to wade through who said what, you have each post - minus my own (which is unnecessary since all those people who agreed with me either quoted the relevant parts and / or the post itself. My point here is I did not lie and every time that troll posts, I will simply cut and paste this response (that took some hours to research just for him.)

If he still wants to call me a liar, he can do it to my face. Otherwise, he has been successfully defeated by other posters to the point that nothing I have to say would be relevant anyway. IF there are any other points to be addressed, I will be happy to entertain them, just not by the resident troll. The dumb ass needs to read. This post refutes his account of what happened.. I know because I'm the one who did it. I copied and pasted the fucking quote as it appeared and no amount of political jockeying will change that. It's over dumbass

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AN ADDENDUM TO NOTFOOLEDBYW AKA anynameyouwish and "BREEZEWOOD" if you are following that whizzing contest

Just in case anyone has followed the saga of the poster known as NOTFOOLEDBYW, I want to take a moment to acknowledge his vicious attacks on me that, as I type those were 187 out of the 1025 posts. He received 137 negative responses for his attacks and a single hit and run poster (which is against the rules) took a swipe at me (and that violated the rules in this zone.)

NOTFOOLEDBYW's very first post (#78) was to take a swipe at Christianity with a claim that it was bullshit (sic.) The post did not address the OP; it was just an off topic insult. If his post was not relative to the OP (it was not) then he deliberately, knowingly and purposely insulted me.

NOTFOOLEDBYW has made it his mission to claim I insulted him first. My position is that his post did not address the OP, it started the thread on a downward spiral. So, when I said "ignorance is bliss," he comes unglued for 187 posts so far. His entire argument rests on an accusation regarding what "I" said. I left a quote from a source. The quote is italicized and in quotation marks AND the title and page of a book, but no link. It should be apparent to any idiot that those were not my words.

NOTFOOLEDBYW made a big deal about it, so I researched the book and posted the title and everything needed to locate it on the page my link said it was on. Then NOTFOOLEDBYW issued a challenge in post # 831. He says:

"Can anyone find a direct quote by Thomas Jefferson that reads this way in these exact words. If you do I will no longer post to this thread.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

In post # 838 I accepted his challenge and repeated the quote I had from the Internet:

http://peace2you.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Faith-of-Founding-Fathers1.pdf

NOTFOOLEDBYW's argument is that I lied. Pardon my language, but you have to be one dumb fuck not to understand that a quote in quotation marks AND in italics are not my words, but a quote. Consequently, it is dishonest to say I lied. I provided the source and there is no requirement in NOTFOOLEDBYW'S challenge that says the quote must be accurate or fit some standard. NOTFOOLEDBYW is a dishonorable liar that did not keep his word.

And so this saga has caused NOTFOOLEDBYW to misrepresent my positions, lie, complain, and attempt to derail this thread to the point that correll wants to lock the thread. I simply don't want to give one troll that kind of power over me. NOTFOOLEDBYW has gotten 137 negative responses and he has called posters here morons, liars, fools, LUNATICS, etc. He wanted to be the poster boy for the secularists or maybe humanists. The best he could do is waste a tremendous amount of bandwidth over one word. Ironically, with or without that word, it does not change the facts that were brought to the table AND WHOLLY IRRELEVANT TO THE OP.

SOCKPUPPET ACCOUNTS, DAILY HARASSMENT, THE GUY IS A COWARD AND NOT A MAN OF HIS WORD

 

[BreezeWood]

SEE POSTS 1261 THROUGH 1268 AND YOU WON'T BE SUBJECT TO THE TROLLING

.
why would someone pm - sockpuppet ... being on the board is where it belongs, have little desire to pm strangers.

rockwell, have you thought to make an appointment with the guy and his couch.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

This is from post #254 by NOTFOOLEDBYW as he replies to another poster:

"No, you moron. You started this by saying a government that would be neutral on religious matters is not in conflict with that same government being set up as a Christian Nation.

And I explained to you that America is a nation defined exactly by the system of government that was established at the founding.

Note that I used the term ”system” to define government.

it’s very important that you recognize my use of the words “system of government”.

Your failure to comprehend what I wrote makes it obvious you are stupid."

Everybody that disagrees with this condescending prick is called names and belittled. He has not earned the Right to debate squat with me and he should STFU, pay attention and learn. More than one poster exposed this know it all. And the above is the way he chooses to conduct his "debating" skills.

Everybody is stupid and NOTFOOLEDBYW thinks he has a monopoly on understanding. I simply acknowledge his trolling just to help him destroy any credibility he thought he had.

For this guy to use sockpuppets as soon as he posts to make him look like he has any credibility is beyond the pale of reason.

SEE POSTS 1261 THROUGH 1268 AND YOU WON'T BE SUBJECT TO THE TROLLING