America Founded as a Christian Nation

[Porter Rockwell]

America was founded as a Christian nation. It was taken over by secularists in 1962 on the basis of a personal letter written by a founding father, but interpreted to mean opposite of what he meant.

In law, personal letters have no authority, but America was taken over by a de facto / illegal / unconstitutional government that empowered non-whites and non-Christians that savor every moment that they are able to attack the principles upon which the Republic rests. These people have assaulted the family unit, brought us to the time spoken of in Isaiah 5: 20 - 24.

Instead of talking about the OP, we end up on slavery every time. The atheists, communists, and secularists pick that hill to die on. But, their problem will always remain: in the political realm, they always vote for slave masters as their leaders. They even stabbed those who saved them in the back.

We end up on slavery because some of us think slavery is inimical to Christian values. A Christian nation should follow the teachings of Jesus. If it doesn't, then it's not a Christian nation, ne c'est pas? Of course, if we're wrong please enlighten us. Show us where Jesus wanted black people beaten, whipped and forced to pick cotton.

It's obvious that you don't have the facts since your presuppositions are wrong across the board. You hate Christians. Got it. You still support slavery at every opportunity. Start your own thread.

 

[Bezukhov]

America was founded as a Christian nation. It was taken over by secularists in 1962 on the basis of a personal letter written by a founding father, but interpreted to mean opposite of what he meant.

In law, personal letters have no authority, but America was taken over by a de facto / illegal / unconstitutional government that empowered non-whites and non-Christians that savor every moment that they are able to attack the principles upon which the Republic rests. These people have assaulted the family unit, brought us to the time spoken of in Isaiah 5: 20 - 24.

Instead of talking about the OP, we end up on slavery every time. The atheists, communists, and secularists pick that hill to die on. But, their problem will always remain: in the political realm, they always vote for slave masters as their leaders. They even stabbed those who saved them in the back.

We end up on slavery because some of us think slavery is inimical to Christian values. A Christian nation should follow the teachings of Jesus. If it doesn't, then it's not a Christian nation, ne c'est pas? Of course, if we're wrong please enlighten us. Show us where Jesus wanted black people beaten, whipped and forced to pick cotton.

It's obvious that you don't have the facts since your presuppositions are wrong across the board. You hate Christians. Got it. You still support slavery at every opportunity. Start your own thread.

I support slavery? Moi? I'm an Anarcho-Capitalist, the one political philosophy absolutely antithetical to the concept of slavery. One more thing. Where did Jesus instruct His followers to set up earthly political nations, where they can lord over and dominate everyone else? I do remember Him saying that His Kingdom was not part of this World, and that Christians should be seeking His Kingdom first. If they were doing that they wouldn't have time for the grubby business of worldly politics. Of course, to today's Christians, Jesus' kingdom will be established on Earth as soon as every elected office in America is held by Bible Thumping Republicans.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

America was founded as a Christian nation. It was taken over by secularists in 1962 on the basis of a personal letter written by a founding father, but interpreted to mean opposite of what he meant.

In law, personal letters have no authority, but America was taken over by a de facto / illegal / unconstitutional government that empowered non-whites and non-Christians that savor every moment that they are able to attack the principles upon which the Republic rests. These people have assaulted the family unit, brought us to the time spoken of in Isaiah 5: 20 - 24.

Instead of talking about the OP, we end up on slavery every time. The atheists, communists, and secularists pick that hill to die on. But, their problem will always remain: in the political realm, they always vote for slave masters as their leaders. They even stabbed those who saved them in the back.

We end up on slavery because some of us think slavery is inimical to Christian values. A Christian nation should follow the teachings of Jesus. If it doesn't, then it's not a Christian nation, ne c'est pas? Of course, if we're wrong please enlighten us. Show us where Jesus wanted black people beaten, whipped and forced to pick cotton.

It's obvious that you don't have the facts since your presuppositions are wrong across the board. You hate Christians. Got it. You still support slavery at every opportunity. Start your own thread.

I support slavery? Moi? I'm an Anarcho-Capitalist, the one political philosophy absolutely antithetical to the concept of slavery. One more thing. Where did Jesus instruct His followers to set up earthly political nations, where they can lord over and dominate everyone else? I do remember Him saying that His Kingdom was not part of this World, and that Christians should be seeking His Kingdom first. If they were doing that they wouldn't have time for the grubby business of worldly politics. Of course, to today's Christians, Jesus' kingdom will be established on Earth as soon as every elected office in America is held by Bible Thumping Republicans.

Did you know that your questions are fully asked and answered in painstakingly detail in the first and second posts of this thread, within the accompanying links?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Post #824. I wonder if Porter Rockwell can tell us what years of his life that Jefferson believed in Jesus's miracles , his resurrection, his born of a virgin, and was The Son God who died for our sins.

Although there is no written evidence throughout his entire adult life where he expressed a belief in what he considered the corrupt church to have taught to irrational believers.


#110 23871647

Also Jefferson took out Jesus's miracles , his resurrection, his born of a virgin, he considered him a wise man. Not a God. Also Jefferson thought the book of Revelation was wrote by a crazed person.

Since Porter Rockwell claims to have proved he was a Christian , we should see the back up for it.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

While Christianity is at an all time low, the United States (as recent as 2012) at least led the world in the number of Christian missionaries sent throughout the world. According to one article:

"The United States sent out 127,000 of the world’s estimated 400,000 missionaries abroad in 2010, according to Todd Johnson, director of the Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in Massachusetts.

In distant second place is Brazil, which sent 34,000 missionaries abroad in 2010, he said."

In 200-year tradition, most Christian missionaries are American

Roughly 25 percent of the missionaries in the world come from the United States. Missionaries not only spread the gospel, but they go into backward countries and help people raise gardens, build houses, and heal the sick. Out of approximately 195 countries in the world, one country provides roughly 25 percent of the missionaries. There is something to be said about our commitment to other people.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

I found this article educational in the pursuance of researching the premise that America was founded as a Christian nation:

The U.S. was founded as a Christian nation - here's more proof

If you ever study law in school they are quick to tell you in the first few days that Britain's Bill of Rights (1689) was founded on a set of Liberties, and about a hundred years later America’s founders echoed these same rights, encoding them into the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

https://www.losal.org/cms/lib7/CA01...hts 1689_American Bill of Rights_Compared.pdf

* Sometimes historians cannot hide their bias by wanting to give an undue amount of credit to the "Enlightenment" period. That period for England was a mere four years old when the English Bill of Rights was ratified. It was in its infancy.

https://www.history.com/topics/british-history/enlightenment

Britain's Bill of Rights was, unequivocally, as Christian a document as one could ever read. Here it is in its entirety:

Avalon Project - English Bill of Rights 1689


Also see this:

http://kwcjohnsonworldhistory.weebly.com/uploads/2/2/8/6/22862952/billofrightscomparison.pdf

The American Bill of Rights | Constitution of United States of America 1789

If you examine this post, access the links, read the first two posts of this thread, and access those links, it will forever change the way you see the Christian people that forged the principles of our Republic into a working form of government that maintained our high moral tone, advanced the cause, and were at the core of our becoming the greatest nation in all of recorded history.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#815.

This post refutes his account of what happened..

Where?

Jefferson never wrote what you said he wrote.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

Your have never shown us where you got it A BOOK, It’s author, it’s publisher, what date, what was written to whom?

Post #531.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

What is the Writings of Thomas Jefferson p. 385. ???

you do owe the board an answer.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

#815.

This post refutes his account of what happened..

Where?

Jefferson never wrote what you said he wrote.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

Your have never shown us where you got it A BOOK, It’s author, it’s publisher, what date, what was written to whom?

Post #531.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

What is the Writings of Thomas Jefferson p. 385. ???

you do owe the board an answer.

NOTFOOLEDBYW'S FINAL RESPONSE

This thread is now 805 posts long as I begin this response. Of those, NOTFOOLEDBYW has made a total of 155 posts. They are posts # 78, 80, 111, 113, 118, 126, 140, 154, 157, 158, 159, 162, 172, 174, 179, 189, 192, 195, 196, 197, 203, 204, 205, 212, 220, 224, 225, 232, 233, 234, 235, 240, 240, 241, 242, 243, 246, 247, 254, 255, 256, 267, 279, 280, 285, 290, 296, 297, 302, 307, 309, 318, 321, 328, 330, 335, 339, 340, 341, 345, 347, 350, 350, 351, 352, 367, 370, 373, 381, 393, 394, 399, 401, 404, 411, 412, 413, 420, 421, 425, 426, 429, 430, 431, 432, 468, 485, 500, 504, 508, 512, 516, 519, 525, 527, 537, 539, 541, 546, 549, 551, 554, 557, 559, 561, 563, 565, 566, 569, 570, 574, 577, 581, 582, 587, 589, 606, 607, 610, 626, 630, 636, 642, 644, 646, 684, 688, 699, 700, 703, 704, 707, 708, 709, 715, 716, 718, 724, 725, 730, 740, 744, 746, 747, 750, 753, 754, 755, 761, 762, 769, 774, 782, 7998, 800, ... that is 155 posts out of 805

In virtually every post NOTFOOLEDBYW has insulted posters, called them liars, misrepresented people, and NOBODY has defended his positions.


By contrast, NOTFOOLEDBYW has been challenged by numerous posters to whom NOTFOOLEDBYW has called liars, fools, morons, and accused them of all manner of wrongdoing. Those posters responded a total of 126 times in posts: #120, 130, 134, 167, 169,174, 176, 175, 176, 180, 185, 206, 207, 250, 282, 299, 346, 346, 354, 396, 397, 403, 405, 406, 407, 414, 415, 416, 424, 427, 428, 433, 434, 438, 439, 440, 445, 446, 447, 448, 450, 451, 452, 453, 454, 455, 456, 457, 458, 460, 461, 464, 465, 466, 467, 469, 470, 472, 474, 476, 483, 484, 490, 491, 492, 493, 494, 496, 497, 498, 499, 501, 502, 517, 518, 521, 526, 528, 531, 558, 562, 564, 567, 568, 571, 573, 576, 578, 579, 588, 591, 593, 594, 595, 596, 598, 599, 600, 603, 608, 612, 613, 615, 618, 627, 628, 629, 633, 645, 648, 653, 658, 665, 668, 698, 701, 705, 706, 711, 722, 723, 726, 751, 764, 765, 779

I have been obliged to respond to NOTFOOLEDBYW a total of 85 times personally. That is a total of 366 posts that have revolved around this one poster.

One poster or another has successfully defeated each and every argument he brings to the table. He is now remaining, claiming I lied about Thomas Jefferson - as if that would change the balance of this discussion. Here is my position:

1) When other posters began discussing this as a conversation rather than a point by point, let's prove everything, I got conversational. I quoted Thomas Jefferson from an unnamed source in an online general conversation.

2) NOTFOOLEDBYW seized upon that accusing me of posting a lie; even claiming that I edited my source. I did not. I did, however, look at where my source got their material and I quoted where it could be found. I did not lie

3) Regardless of how that material reads, the bottom line is Thomas Jefferson said he was a Christian and I took him at his word as his early life indicates such. Jefferson states, and it was quoted on this thread, that his life experiences changed his outlook. Nothing has changed what Jefferson said at that point in his life

4) Regardless of how many times founders did or said one thing or another, I look at the bottom line and if over half the posts here are either one man arguing against those points compared to the scores of posts disagreeing with him, there is no point to prove. If this matters to you and you want to wade through who said what, you have each post - minus my own (which is unnecessary since all those people who agreed with me either quoted the relevant parts and / or the post itself. My point here is I did not lie and every time that troll posts, I will simply cut and paste this response (that took some hours to research just for him.)

If he still wants to call me a liar, he can do it to my face. Otherwise, he has been successfully defeated by other posters to the point that nothing I have to say would be relevant anyway. IF there are any other points to be addressed, I will be happy to entertain them, just not by the resident troll. The dumb ass needs to read. This post refutes his account of what happened.. I know because I'm the one who did it. I copied and pasted the fucking quote as it appeared and no amount of political jockeying will change that. It's over dumbass.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

This is nuts, but in keeping with the thread, we have to repeat this to get back on topic:

I found this article educational in the pursuance of researching the premise that America was founded as a Christian nation:

The U.S. was founded as a Christian nation - here's more proof

If you ever study law in school they are quick to tell you in the first few days that Britain's Bill of Rights (1689) was founded on a set of Liberties, and about a hundred years later America’s founders echoed these same rights, encoding them into the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

https://www.losal.org/cms/lib7/CA01...hts 1689_American Bill of Rights_Compared.pdf

* Sometimes historians cannot hide their bias by wanting to give an undue amount of credit to the "Enlightenment" period. That period for England was a mere four years old when the English Bill of Rights was ratified. It was in its infancy.

https://www.history.com/topics/british-history/enlightenment

Britain's Bill of Rights was, unequivocally, as Christian a document as one could ever read. Here it is in its entirety:

Avalon Project - English Bill of Rights 1689


Also see this:

http://kwcjohnsonworldhistory.weebly.com/uploads/2/2/8/6/22862952/billofrightscomparison.pdf

The American Bill of Rights | Constitution of United States of America 1789

If you examine this post, access the links, read the first two posts of this thread, and access those links, it will forever change the way you see the Christian people that forged the principles of our Republic into a working form of government that maintained our high moral tone, advanced the cause, and were at the core of our becoming the greatest nation in all of recorded history.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#815.

This post refutes his account of what happened..

Where?

Jefferson never wrote what you said he wrote.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

Your have never shown us where you got it A BOOK, It’s author, it’s publisher, what date, what was written to whom?

Post #531.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

What is the Writings of Thomas Jefferson p. 385. ???

you do owe the board an answer.

NOTFOOLEDBYW'S FINAL RESPONSE

This thread is now 805 posts long as I begin this response. Of those, NOTFOOLEDBYW has made a total of 155 posts. They are posts # 78, 80, 111, 113, 118, 126, 140, 154, 157, 158, 159, 162, 172, 174, 179, 189, 192, 195, 196, 197, 203, 204, 205, 212, 220, 224, 225, 232, 233, 234, 235, 240, 240, 241, 242, 243, 246, 247, 254, 255, 256, 267, 279, 280, 285, 290, 296, 297, 302, 307, 309, 318, 321, 328, 330, 335, 339, 340, 341, 345, 347, 350, 350, 351, 352, 367, 370, 373, 381, 393, 394, 399, 401, 404, 411, 412, 413, 420, 421, 425, 426, 429, 430, 431, 432, 468, 485, 500, 504, 508, 512, 516, 519, 525, 527, 537, 539, 541, 546, 549, 551, 554, 557, 559, 561, 563, 565, 566, 569, 570, 574, 577, 581, 582, 587, 589, 606, 607, 610, 626, 630, 636, 642, 644, 646, 684, 688, 699, 700, 703, 704, 707, 708, 709, 715, 716, 718, 724, 725, 730, 740, 744, 746, 747, 750, 753, 754, 755, 761, 762, 769, 774, 782, 7998, 800, ... that is 155 posts out of 805

In virtually every post NOTFOOLEDBYW has insulted posters, called them liars, misrepresented people, and NOBODY has defended his positions.


By contrast, NOTFOOLEDBYW has been challenged by numerous posters to whom NOTFOOLEDBYW has called liars, fools, morons, and accused them of all manner of wrongdoing. Those posters responded a total of 126 times in posts: #120, 130, 134, 167, 169,174, 176, 175, 176, 180, 185, 206, 207, 250, 282, 299, 346, 346, 354, 396, 397, 403, 405, 406, 407, 414, 415, 416, 424, 427, 428, 433, 434, 438, 439, 440, 445, 446, 447, 448, 450, 451, 452, 453, 454, 455, 456, 457, 458, 460, 461, 464, 465, 466, 467, 469, 470, 472, 474, 476, 483, 484, 490, 491, 492, 493, 494, 496, 497, 498, 499, 501, 502, 517, 518, 521, 526, 528, 531, 558, 562, 564, 567, 568, 571, 573, 576, 578, 579, 588, 591, 593, 594, 595, 596, 598, 599, 600, 603, 608, 612, 613, 615, 618, 627, 628, 629, 633, 645, 648, 653, 658, 665, 668, 698, 701, 705, 706, 711, 722, 723, 726, 751, 764, 765, 779

I have been obliged to respond to NOTFOOLEDBYW a total of 85 times personally. That is a total of 366 posts that have revolved around this one poster.

One poster or another has successfully defeated each and every argument he brings to the table. He is now remaining, claiming I lied about Thomas Jefferson - as if that would change the balance of this discussion. Here is my position:

1) When other posters began discussing this as a conversation rather than a point by point, let's prove everything, I got conversational. I quoted Thomas Jefferson from an unnamed source in an online general conversation.

2) NOTFOOLEDBYW seized upon that accusing me of posting a lie; even claiming that I edited my source. I did not. I did, however, look at where my source got their material and I quoted where it could be found. I did not lie

3) Regardless of how that material reads, the bottom line is Thomas Jefferson said he was a Christian and I took him at his word as his early life indicates such. Jefferson states, and it was quoted on this thread, that his life experiences changed his outlook. Nothing has changed what Jefferson said at that point in his life

4) Regardless of how many times founders did or said one thing or another, I look at the bottom line and if over half the posts here are either one man arguing against those points compared to the scores of posts disagreeing with him, there is no point to prove. If this matters to you and you want to wade through who said what, you have each post - minus my own (which is unnecessary since all those people who agreed with me either quoted the relevant parts and / or the post itself. My point here is I did not lie and every time that troll posts, I will simply cut and paste this response (that took some hours to research just for him.)

If he still wants to call me a liar, he can do it to my face. Otherwise, he has been successfully defeated by other posters to the point that nothing I have to say would be relevant anyway. IF there are any other points to be addressed, I will be happy to entertain them, just not by the resident troll. The dumb ass needs to read. This post refutes his account of what happened.. I know because I'm the one who did it. I copied and pasted the fucking quote as it appeared and no amount of political jockeying will change that. It's over dumbass.

Rockwell obviously cannot show a verifiable source where Jefferson wrote this To Whom? What Date and what context:

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Can anyone find a direct quote by Thomas Jefferson that reads this way in these exact words. If you do I will no longer post to this thread.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#114.

You and I do not have the luxury of judging him.

FOR THE RECORD #832 I am not judging Jefferson. I am going by what Jefferson actually wrote about being a Christian.

 

[Correll]

23985744

THe few that remained, like W, have done what they could, but they have not been able to deny Rockwell's premise.

Rockwell’s premise is dead. It goes nowhere. He lied. He took a statement from Jefferson and edited out words from a sentence to change what the writer meant.

Rockwell removed words from Jefferson’s sentence that were not separated by a comma. He did that. He distorted the entire context and intent of what was said. Nobody does that. He cannot deny he did that. The proof is in writing that he did that. What kind of dishonest person would do that and continue claiming they did nothing writing.

What’ kind of idiot can’t see what PR did?

W, all you are doing now, is making Rockwell look like the reasonable and honest one. You should ask yourself if that is what you want to do, and if not, change tactics accordingly.

 

[Likkmee]

Can anyone find a direct quote by Thomas Jefferson that reads this way in these exact words. If you do I will no longer post to this thread.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

"Christianity" has gone down many paths over the centuries. Most have been complete bullshit by select interpretations of a quote or three of scripture

 

[Penelope]

Can anyone find a direct quote by Thomas Jefferson that reads this way in these exact words. If you do I will no longer post to this thread.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

"Christianity" has gone down many paths over the centuries. Most have been complete bullshit by select interpretations of a quote or three of scripture

he is one of the demons. LOL Sweetheart, love your eyes, etc, he is in it for the money.

He is a very real devil. I can't listen to him any longer. He is so full of BS.

 

[Likkmee]

It's just business...........

 

[Correll]

Can anyone find a direct quote by Thomas Jefferson that reads this way in these exact words. If you do I will no longer post to this thread.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

It is clear that what you are doing, is trying actively to avoid looking at the forest, by looking at one tree.


It is obvious to everyone, including yourself, that this is what someone does, when they know they have lost the debate and the best they can do, is to try to bury their loss in confusion and garbage to hide it.


No one wants you to stop posting. YOu are one of the few liberals who actually believe what they say.


Speaking for myself of course. Perhaps Rockwell does want you to stop. But, this thread would die without any libs in it.


And nearly all of your buddies ran away. Why do you think that is?

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Can anyone find a direct quote by Thomas Jefferson that reads this way in these exact words. If you do I will no longer post to this thread.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

You have made this a challenge. I told you I was no longer wanting to pursue this. I inadvertently left out a link in one post. You called me a liar and said if someone can find that direct quote, you will no longer post on this thread. Today, we get to see if you are a man of your word.

My post appeared in # 531. You made it a big deal, but I thought nothing of the quote itself. So, today, you have to leave this thread IF you are a man of your word. Check this link, exactly as I copied and pasted it:

http://peace2you.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Faith-of-Founding-Fathers1.pdf

Additionally, to show that I did not want anyone to think that the quote was bogus, I looked up the book and cited where that link came from. I posted that in post # 552. So, you have the direct quote you asked for, the explanation of how I ended up posting the specifics to the book and now if you are a man of your word, you can leave now. If not, the real liar is you. Save face and go away. You don't even have to apologize.

 

[Correll]

Can anyone find a direct quote by Thomas Jefferson that reads this way in these exact words. If you do I will no longer post to this thread.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

You have made this a challenge. I told you I was no longer wanting to pursue this. I inadvertently left out a link in one post. You called me a liar and said if someone can find that direct quote, you will no longer post on this thread. Today, we get to see if you are a man of your word.

My post appeared in # 531. You made it a big deal, but I thought nothing of the quote itself. So, today, you have to leave this thread IF you are a man of your word. Check this link, exactly as I copied and pasted it:

http://peace2you.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Faith-of-Founding-Fathers1.pdf

Additionally, to show that I did not want anyone to think that the quote was bogus, I looked up the book and cited where that link came from. I posted that in post # 552. So, you have the direct quote you asked for, the explanation of how I ended up posting the specifics to the book and now if you are a man of your word, you can leave now. If not, the real liar is you. Save face and go away. You don't even have to apologize.

The lib changed the subject of this thread, from "America founded as a Christian Nation",


BECAUSE HE KNOWS THAT HE LOST. THAT AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION.


Now he is doing damage control, trying to bury his loss under irrelevant crap.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Can anyone find a direct quote by Thomas Jefferson that reads this way in these exact words. If you do I will no longer post to this thread.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

"Christianity" has gone down many paths over the centuries. Most have been complete bullshit by select interpretations of a quote or three of scripture

Timing is everything. Look at long you've been posting at USM and this is the first time you've shown up... AFTER it was pointed out that the resident troll went 366 posts without a single supporter. Hmmm. I'm thinking sockpuppet. You're not keeping your word if you restart the argument under a new name. And anybody with an IQ larger than their shoe size can see the paltry number of posts you've made over that length of time and know. You did not follow this thread. You are a sockpuppet and 3 of those have been banned that posted on this thread. Check the names of posters where the word BANNED appears under their name on this thread. You could become number 4.