Abortion is murder

[ding]

That doesn't surprise me at all. These guys and gals all say that those people are full of shit.

Dr. Micheline Matthews-Roth Harvard Medical School
Dr. Jasper Williams, Former President of the National Medical Association
Dr. William Reville, University College Cork, Ireland
Okada et al., A role for the elongator complex in zygotic paternal genome demethylation, NATURE 463:554 (Jan. 28, 2010)
Signorelli et al., Kinases, phosphatases and proteases during sperm capacitation, CELL TISSUE RES. 349(3):765 (Mar. 20, 2012)
Coy et al., Roles of the oviduct in mammalian fertilization, REPRODUCTION 144(6):649 (Oct. 1, 2012)
Marcello et al., Fertilization, ADV. EXP. BIOL. 757:321 (2013)
Steven Ertelt”Undisputed Scientific Fact: Human Life Begins at Conception, or Fertilization” LifeNews.com 11/18/13
Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2003. pp. 16, 2.
Kaluger, G., and Kaluger, M., Human Development: The Span of Life, page 28-29, The C.V. Mosby Co., St. Louis, 1974.
F Beck Human Embryology, Blackwell Scientific Publications, 1985 page vi
Clark Edward and Corliss Patten’s Human Embryology, McGraw – Hill Inc., 30
The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology fifth edition, Moore and Persaud, 1993, Saunders Company, page 1
Prenatal Care, US Department Of Health And Human Services, Maternal and Child Health Division, 1990
Landrum B. Shettles “Rites of Life: The Scientific Evidence for Life Before Birth” Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1983 p 40
Keith L. Moore & T.V.N. Persaud Before We Are Born – Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects (W.B. Saunders Company, 1998. Fifth edition.) Page 500
Sally B Olds, et al., Obstetric Nursing (Menlo Park, California: Addison – Wesley publishing, 1980) P 136
Eric Pastuszek. Is the Fetus Human? (Rockford, Illinois: Tan books And Publishers Inc., 1991)
J.P. Greenhill and E.A. Freidman. Biological Principles and Modern Practice of Obstetrics.
T.W. Sadler, Langman’s Medical Embryology, 10th edition.
Keith L. Moore, Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology, 7th edition.
Ronan O’Rahilly and Fabiola Miller, Human Embryology and Teratology, 3rd edition.
Dr. Morris Krieger “The Human Reproductive System”
James Bopp, ed., Human Life and Health Care Ethics, vol. 2
Rand McNally, Atlas of the Body (New York: Rand McNally, 1980) 139, 144
Prenatal Care, US Department of Health and Human Services, Maternal and Child Health Div 1990
Leslie Brainerd Arey, “Developmental Anatomy” seventh edition
In the Womb, National Geographic, 2005
DeCoursey, R.M., The Human Organism, 4th edition
Thibodeau, G.A., and Anthony, C.P., Structure and Function of the Body, 8th edition
Scarr, S., Weinberg, R.A., and Levine A., Understanding Development
Clark, J. ed., The Nervous System: Circuits of Communication in the Human Body
Turner, J.S., and Helms, D.B., Lifespan Developmental, 2nd ed
Carlson, Bruce M. Patten’s Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition.
Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand’s Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition
Lennart Nilsson A Child is Born: Completely Revised Edition
Kaluger, G., and Kaluger, M., Human Development: The Span of Life
Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition
Human Embryology, 3rd ed. Bradley M. Patten
Essentials of Human Embryology, William J. Larsen
From Human Embryology & Teratology, Ronan R. O’Rahilly, Fabiola Muller
The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed. Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md.

That only speaks to abortion. There are other reasons people seek to end human life which many find reasonable.

And I note, you won't even stand behind your own convictions when it comes to abortion. When asked if you want abortion to be illegal -- you won't answer "yes" or "no."

That is the only issue we are discussing here. I am afraid if you want to make a two wrongs makes a right argument you will need to have that discussion with someone else as I would only laugh at such a ridiculous assertion. As to my convictions, I really couldn't care less of what you think.

You said, "There really is no good reason to end a human life."

That is not limited to abortion and there are other reasons some people believe there are good reasons to end a human life.

But speaking of abortion ... if you think abortion is wrong, why don't you want it outlawed?

Of course it's not limited to abortion.

As to the legality of abortion... Sorry, I can only have that discussion with some one who is genuine. That rules you out.

LOL

That you can't even state your position speaks volumes about you.

So not only is abortion not murder, you can't even render a valid objection because you can't even say it should be illegal.

I can live with you thinking that. It's not so bad. I've been clear on what I require from you to go forward with that discussion. You are unwilling to bend and so am I. What's left to discuss?

 

[Divine Wind]

The truth usually hurts before it helps. The choice is yours. Choose wisely.

Excellent advice. You should take it.

 

[ding]

The truth usually hurts before it helps. The choice is yours. Choose wisely.

Excellent advice. You should take it.

Yep, and the best way is to die to self to confront reality.

 

[Divine Wind]

I don't claim to be a saint.

Me neither, but you routinely put yourself above others. You ignore Christ's wisdom by casting stones even though you now, however tangentially, claim to have sinned. You, sir, are a fucking hypocrite and a proven liar.

 

[Divine Wind]

The short answer is that ending a human life is always wrong. That goes for abortion, the death penalty, war and even defending one's self. How do I know? Because of how it makes you feel. Even if it is truly justified, most people with a conscience will still feel bad about doing it. So, how do I rationalize that it is right? I don't. I don't need to do it. I can ask for forgiveness. As long as I admit that I did wrong and truly repent I can be forgiven. Saying our sins out loud to another person has an incredible healing power. It releases the power that sin has upon us. In effect, we are only as sick as the secrets we keep.

Interesting. After several requests, you post without quoting and admit you are against all forms of killing. That's good, but try as I might, I can't find a single post by you that claims to be against the death penalty or protesting war. Why? Am I missing something or is it because those posts don't exist?

 

[Faun]

A zygote is a human being. Have God explain it to you when you meet Him.

God has when I died. I'll pray for the liars and haters like you who have stepped away from God's grace.

When you die you will be forced to judge yourself, except this time you will do so without the aid of an ego which is clouding your vision. The reality is that you condone abortion which is the taking of one of God's creatures. You can rationalize it all you want here on earth, but when you meet Him, you will see your error. Every single life that is aborted or lost naturally in the womb will be with God who is their Creator.

Oh? When does ensoulment occur in a baby?

 

[Faun]

The short answer is that ending a human life is always wrong. That goes for abortion, the death penalty, war and even defending one's self. How do I know? Because of how it makes you feel. Even if it is truly justified, most people with a conscience will still feel bad about doing it. So, how do I rationalize that it is right? I don't. I don't need to do it. I can ask for forgiveness. As long as I admit that I did wrong and truly repent I can be forgiven. Saying our sins out loud to another person has an incredible healing power. It releases the power that sin has upon us. In effect, we are only as sick as the secrets we keep.

Interesting. After several requests, you post without quoting and admit you are against all forms of killing. That's good, but try as I might, I can't find a single post by you that claims to be against the death penalty or protesting war. Why? Am I missing something or is it because those posts don't exist?

He said he's against the death penalty.

 

[Divine Wind]

He said he's against the death penalty.

Correct....after several hours and several requests. Still, as I posted, I can't find one post of him discussing this issue once much less as fervently as he does anti-abortionism. He also hasn't, to my knowledge, posted any anti-war posts. All we have is a hypocritical, self-righteous sanctimonious liar standing on his pedestal tell anyone who disagrees with him that they are going to Hell.

 

[Faun]

He said he's against the death penalty.

Correct....after several hours and several requests. Still, as I posted, I can't find one post of him discussing this issue once much less as fervently as he does anti-abortionism. He also hasn't, to my knowledge, posted any anti-war posts. All we have is a hypocritical, self-righteous sanctimonious liar standing on his pedestal tell anyone who disagrees with him that they are going to Hell.

I always get a good laugh when folks proclaim themselves to be morally superior. Folks like Ted Haggard, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker, etc... They're the ones who fall the hardest.

 

[Divine Wind]

I always get a good laugh when folks proclaim themselves to be morally superior. Folks like Ted Haggard, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker, etc... They're the ones who fall the hardest.

Unfortunately true.

It's fine to stand for a cause and to fervently believe in one's own perceptions, but to believe they are morally superior crosses the line, IMHO.

Those you mentioned deserved to fall. They preyed on others even as they claimed they prayed for the weak.

 

[ding]

The short answer is that ending a human life is always wrong. That goes for abortion, the death penalty, war and even defending one's self. How do I know? Because of how it makes you feel. Even if it is truly justified, most people with a conscience will still feel bad about doing it. So, how do I rationalize that it is right? I don't. I don't need to do it. I can ask for forgiveness. As long as I admit that I did wrong and truly repent I can be forgiven. Saying our sins out loud to another person has an incredible healing power. It releases the power that sin has upon us. In effect, we are only as sick as the secrets we keep.

Interesting. After several requests, you post without quoting and admit you are against all forms of killing. That's good, but try as I might, I can't find a single post by you that claims to be against the death penalty or protesting war. Why? Am I missing something or is it because those posts don't exist?

That is an over simplification, but if it gives you closure, then bob's your uncle.

 

[ding]

I always get a good laugh when folks proclaim themselves to be morally superior. Folks like Ted Haggard, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker, etc... They're the ones who fall the hardest.

Unfortunately true.

It's fine to stand for a cause and to fervently believe in one's own perceptions, but to believe they are morally superior crosses the line, IMHO.

Those you mentioned deserved to fall. They preyed on others even as they claimed they prayed for the weak.

I don't claim to be morally superior. I claim to be awake.

 

[ding]

The short answer is that ending a human life is always wrong. That goes for abortion, the death penalty, war and even defending one's self. How do I know? Because of how it makes you feel. Even if it is truly justified, most people with a conscience will still feel bad about doing it. So, how do I rationalize that it is right? I don't. I don't need to do it. I can ask for forgiveness. As long as I admit that I did wrong and truly repent I can be forgiven. Saying our sins out loud to another person has an incredible healing power. It releases the power that sin has upon us. In effect, we are only as sick as the secrets we keep.

Interesting. After several requests, you post without quoting and admit you are against all forms of killing. That's good, but try as I might, I can't find a single post by you that claims to be against the death penalty or protesting war. Why? Am I missing something or is it because those posts don't exist?

He said he's against the death penalty.

Is that what I wrote? Or is that your interpretation of what I wrote?

 

[ding]

A zygote is a human being. Have God explain it to you when you meet Him.

God has when I died. I'll pray for the liars and haters like you who have stepped away from God's grace.

When you die you will be forced to judge yourself, except this time you will do so without the aid of an ego which is clouding your vision. The reality is that you condone abortion which is the taking of one of God's creatures. You can rationalize it all you want here on earth, but when you meet Him, you will see your error. Every single life that is aborted or lost naturally in the womb will be with God who is their Creator.

Oh? When does ensoulment occur in a baby?

Why does that matter?

 

[ding]

I don't claim to be a saint.

Me neither, but you routinely put yourself above others. You ignore Christ's wisdom by casting stones even though you now, however tangentially, claim to have sinned. You, sir, are a fucking hypocrite and a proven liar.

No. I don't. When did I do that?

 

[ding]

I think what we all learned here is that people have a need to dehumanize life to rationalize the taking of that life. Thus proving that man does know right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept he rationalizes that he didn't violate it. It appears that man has learned nothing in the past 4500 years.

 

[ding]

Yes. All life does begin at conception because it does meet the definition of a living thing.

.
ding: Yes. All life does begin at conception because it does meet the definition of a living thing.


that's not what you were asked ....

the point people are trying to make with you is that all life begins at conception, or is there a difference with you ...

are humans living things ....

.

I guess I don't understand your question. Yes, all life begins at conception when a new living being, as identified by his unique DNA, that has never existed before and will never exist again, is created into existence. That's about as clear as I can be on this subject. So, what is it that you want to know?

.

ding: Yes, all life begins at conception when a new living being, as identified by his unique DNA, that has never existed before and will never exist again, is created into existence.

is your unborn equivalent to to the Lamb being led to slaughter ...

Political C did not reply to the question above, whether the relative value of an embryo is greater than the life of a living being ... care to give a reply

Ending any human life for selfish reasons is wrong.

for selfish reasons ... ?


... is that to mean otherwise it is fine ? - such as for the sustenance of Garden Earth.

.

No. There really is no good reason to end a human life.

.

No. There really is no good reason to end a human life.

why not answer questions people are interested in for a reply - is the human embryo greater than the life of a Lamb being led to slaughter ...

are you a vegetarian ...

.

Genesis 1
29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

Genesis 9
9 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. 2 The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

 

[Faun]

I always get a good laugh when folks proclaim themselves to be morally superior. Folks like Ted Haggard, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker, etc... They're the ones who fall the hardest.

Unfortunately true.

It's fine to stand for a cause and to fervently believe in one's own perceptions, but to believe they are morally superior crosses the line, IMHO.

Those you mentioned deserved to fall. They preyed on others even as they claimed they prayed for the weak.

I don't claim to be morally superior. I claim to be awake.

You can lie to yourself but you can't lie to others....

Your belief in what is moral is defined by society. I have a higher standard than that.

 

[Faun]

The short answer is that ending a human life is always wrong. That goes for abortion, the death penalty, war and even defending one's self. How do I know? Because of how it makes you feel. Even if it is truly justified, most people with a conscience will still feel bad about doing it. So, how do I rationalize that it is right? I don't. I don't need to do it. I can ask for forgiveness. As long as I admit that I did wrong and truly repent I can be forgiven. Saying our sins out loud to another person has an incredible healing power. It releases the power that sin has upon us. In effect, we are only as sick as the secrets we keep.

Interesting. After several requests, you post without quoting and admit you are against all forms of killing. That's good, but try as I might, I can't find a single post by you that claims to be against the death penalty or protesting war. Why? Am I missing something or is it because those posts don't exist?

He said he's against the death penalty.

Is that what I wrote? Or is that your interpretation of what I wrote?

Well you said state sanctioned executions are murder and you said murder is wrong and you are against murder.

What other conclusion can one reasonably reach on where you stand on executions other than you're against them?

 

[Faun]

A zygote is a human being. Have God explain it to you when you meet Him.

God has when I died. I'll pray for the liars and haters like you who have stepped away from God's grace.

When you die you will be forced to judge yourself, except this time you will do so without the aid of an ego which is clouding your vision. The reality is that you condone abortion which is the taking of one of God's creatures. You can rationalize it all you want here on earth, but when you meet Him, you will see your error. Every single life that is aborted or lost naturally in the womb will be with God who is their Creator.

Oh? When does ensoulment occur in a baby?

Why does that matter?

You claimed that every dead fetus is with G-d. Only souls are with Him. So where's your evidence that ensoulment occurs at conception?