A Tale of Two Surges

[rdean]

I love the way the right says we "WON" something in Iraq. I don't know how many times I have heard them say, "We liberated Iraq and it's now a democracy".

When I point out, "No, Iraq is a hard right Islamic Theocracy", they laugh and point and say, "How idiotic". Then, when I quote the Iraqi Constitution:

Article 2:

First: Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation:

A. No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established.

Full Text of Iraqi Constitution - washingtonpost.com

They come back with, "Oh, that's the OLD constitution".

Then I point out, "No, Iraq was a secular country".

Then they say, "But Saddam was a bad man".

Then I say, "Yea, we always knew that, but now it's worse".

Then they say, "No, Iraq is now free".

Then I point out that, "Women are now in burkas and are pretty much slaves".

Then they say, "So were women under Saddam".

Then I say, "No, women under Saddam were able to attend school, divorce, wear western clothes, have a job and go out alone".

Then they say, "But Democrats didn't like Saddam either".

Then I say, "Yes, but they didn't invade Iraq. In fact, Bush's FATHER didn't invade Iraq".

That's where those on the right lose it. When their delusions are threatened, they start calling you names.

Remember, even George Bush thought the Iraqi's were "ungrateful". After all he did for them. And they didn't even ask for his help.

And the right wing still believes we "Won something".

 

[Intense]

"We did the Cole and we wanted the United States to react. And if they reacted, they are going to invade Afghanistan and that’s what we want … . Then we will start holy war against the Americans, exactly like the Soviets." Mohammed Atef, military commander of Al Qaeda, in November of 2000


Afghanistan is not Iraq last I checked. Bush's surge was not really a surge as the numbers were small, as many foreign nations left as we added.

Bush's surge was a payoff and not a surge as thousands of Sunnis (not sure if they were only ones paid) were pay 300 a month to be good. How's that for military tactics.

Bush's so called surge happened after they killed and killed and we killed and killed and I think that all people get tired of killing and being killed. At least that would seem sensible.


Afghanistan and Vietnam - NYTimes.com

I actually relate to what you say in a very strong way. I like the focus of Mark Twain's "War prayer" before deciding to commit anywhere. We must know before we fight anywhere, other than Defensively, what the true meaning of War and Reconstruction entails.


The War Prayer
by Mark Twain
It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers hissing and spluttering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading spread of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest deeps of their hearts, and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country, and invoked the God of Battles beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpourings of fervid eloquence which moved every listener. It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteousness straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal safety's sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way.

Sunday morning came -- next day the battalions would leave for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their young faces alight with martial dreams -- visions of the stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender! Then home from the war, bronzed heroes, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag, or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths. The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation


*God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest! Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!*
Then came the "long" prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was, that an ever-merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers, and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in the day of battle and the hour of peril, bear them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory --

An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher's side and stood there waiting. With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued with his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal, "Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!"

The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside -- which the startled minister did -- and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes, in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said:

"I come from the Throne -- bearing a message from Almighty God!" The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention. "He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd, and will grant it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import -- that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of -- except he pause and think.

"God's servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two -- one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of Him Who heareth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this -- keep it in mind. If you would beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor's crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it.

"You have heard your servant's prayer -- the uttered part of it. I am commissioned of God to put into words the other part of it -- that part which the pastor -- and also you in your hearts -- fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: 'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!' That is sufficient. the *whole* of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory--*must* follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!

"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle -- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.

(*After a pause.*) "Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits!"

It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.

"The War Prayer"

 

[washamericom]

Quote: Originally Posted by antagon

i'll buy all that. it was similar to the impression i got when it was declared we'd attempt a surge. i'd add the issue which got bush involved in the two wars: confidence in the advise of military leadership. the military is overconfident avout their capabilities. anyone who believes that the military could efficiently effect an occupation in the mideast/southwest asia is overconfident.



this goes along with my theory about "it's human nature that if you spend endless time and money on gearing up for war, you have to use it"

 

[geauxtohell]

Or, the New Coach has misapplied his resources and dropped the ball. There is no substitute for competence.

As if it was going swimmingly when Junior was in charge. We wouldn't still be there if he had any degree of competence.

Neither of them have done a good job.

However, Obama got handed a giant turd that was six years in the making by Bush. It will fall in his lap ultimately, but it's not like he's the one that started this goat fuck.

He was just the next guy in line.

 

[Intense]

Why would you buy that? If Bush was successful, we wouldn't still be in Afghanistan.

Obama is doing his best to put momentum back into an effort that stalled out five years ago.

It's not that the effort stalled out 5 years ago, it's that your perception was flawed, your premise. You were misinformed because the truth conflicted with a political agenda. The only thing that has happened since, is the truth has caught up with you.

What the fuck does that even mean, slappy?

I was there 5 years ago. I watched us try and conduct Afghanistan on the cheap. Do you know my Infantry Battalion was responsible for an area the size of the state of Vermont? How does an Infantry Battalion cover that much mountainous terrain? Not very well. So don't piss down my leg and tell me it's raining.

You follow orders. Your Superior's pick and choose, and try not to over reach and sacrifice the integrity of combat effectiveness, by being spread out too thin, or be caught unprepared. What else would you do?

 

[washamericom]

I love the way the right says we "WON" something in Iraq. I don't know how many times I have heard them say, "We liberated Iraq and it's now a democracy".

When I point out, "No, Iraq is a hard right Islamic Theocracy", they laugh and point and say, "How idiotic". Then, when I quote the Iraqi Constitution:

Article 2:

First: Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation:

A. No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established.

Full Text of Iraqi Constitution - washingtonpost.com

They come back with, "Oh, that's the OLD constitution".

Then I point out, "No, Iraq was a secular country".

Then they say, "But Saddam was a bad man".

Then I say, "Yea, we always knew that, but now it's worse".

Then they say, "No, Iraq is now free".

Then I point out that, "Women are now in burkas and are pretty much slaves".

Then they say, "So were women under Saddam".

Then I say, "No, women under Saddam were able to attend school, divorce, wear western clothes, have a job and go out alone".

Then they say, "But Democrats didn't like Saddam either".

Then I say, "Yes, but they didn't invade Iraq. In fact, Bush's FATHER didn't invade Iraq".

That's where those on the right lose it. When their delusions are threatened, they start calling you names.

Remember, even George Bush thought the Iraqi's were "ungrateful". After all he did for them. And they didn't even ask for his help.

i think you are more describing iran. iraq is a better place, because the free world helped them out. we could have helped iran, but obama blew it. why people continue to defend saddam is amazing

Article 5: The law is sovereign. The people are the source of authorities and its legitimacy, which the people shall exercise in a direct general secret ballot and through their constitutional institutions.

 

[geauxtohell]

I actually relate to what you say in a very strong way. I like the focus of Mark Twain's "War prayer" before deciding to commit anywhere. We must know before we fight anywhere, other than Defensively, what the true meaning of War and Reconstruction entails.


The War Prayer
by Mark Twain
It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers hissing and spluttering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading spread of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest deeps of their hearts, and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country, and invoked the God of Battles beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpourings of fervid eloquence which moved every listener. It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteousness straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal safety's sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way.

Sunday morning came -- next day the battalions would leave for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their young faces alight with martial dreams -- visions of the stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender! Then home from the war, bronzed heroes, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag, or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths. The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation


*God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest! Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!*
Then came the "long" prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was, that an ever-merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers, and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in the day of battle and the hour of peril, bear them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory --

An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher's side and stood there waiting. With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued with his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal, "Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!"

The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside -- which the startled minister did -- and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes, in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said:

"I come from the Throne -- bearing a message from Almighty God!" The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention. "He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd, and will grant it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import -- that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of -- except he pause and think.

"God's servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two -- one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of Him Who heareth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this -- keep it in mind. If you would beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor's crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it.

"You have heard your servant's prayer -- the uttered part of it. I am commissioned of God to put into words the other part of it -- that part which the pastor -- and also you in your hearts -- fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: 'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!' That is sufficient. the *whole* of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory--*must* follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!

"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle -- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.

(*After a pause.*) "Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits!"

It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.

"The War Prayer"

You do realize that Twain was using satire here, right? The entire "Mysterious Stranger" story was a slam on our American values system.

Twain was very dis-enchanted at the end of his life.

 

[antagon]

Why would you buy that? If Bush was successful, we wouldn't still be in Afghanistan.

Obama is doing his best to put momentum back into an effort that stalled out five years ago.

i presumed that rabbi was referring to the surge in iraq. this is widely regarded as a success, and it could be attributed to a recession in insurgency in some parts of iraq. with the US functions in iraq reduced, a great deal of those issues resurfaced since. enough for me to conclude that there wasnt much success in the endeavor at all.

this is why i was opposed to the decision to follow suit with the iraq method altogether, then questioned what might be achieved.

Or, the New Coach has misapplied his resources and dropped the ball. There is no substitute for competence.

since this is not a totalitarian dictatorship, the competence of others is a ready substitute for the competence of any one individual. i see iraq and afghanistan as failed tests for our military, intel and political leadership... some 1000+ individuals and 15+ systems plus contractors, allies and consultants.

it has been nearly a decade we've shown our asses.

 

[Intense]

Or, the New Coach has misapplied his resources and dropped the ball. There is no substitute for competence.

As if it was going swimmingly when Junior was in charge. We wouldn't still be there if he had any degree of competence.

Neither of them have done a good job.

However, Obama got handed a giant turd that was six years in the making by Bush. It will fall in his lap ultimately, but it's not like he's the one that started this goat fuck.

He was just the next guy in line.

You mean like Nixon didn't start Nam?

The Armed Forces as a whole seem to have allot more respect for both Bush's than they do Obama. Why is that?

 

[geauxtohell]

i think you are more describing iran. iraq is a better place, because the free world helped them out. we could have helped iran, but obama blew it.

Oh, we did help Iran. Soon after we set foot in Iraq, the moderate PM of Iran was tossed out of office and the Mullahocracy gained enormous strength. We also eliminated their key rival in the region. Which freed them up to cross the border and kill our own troops, under Bushes watch. Of course, the mighty pretender from Texas shrugged that off.

We helped Iran, just not the Iranians that it was in our interest to help.

 

[DaGoose]

I love the way the right says we "WON" something in Iraq. I don't know how many times I have heard them say, "We liberated Iraq and it's now a democracy".

When I point out, "No, Iraq is a hard right Islamic Theocracy", they laugh and point and say, "How idiotic". Then, when I quote the Iraqi Constitution:

Article 2:

First: Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation:

A. No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established.

Full Text of Iraqi Constitution - washingtonpost.com

They come back with, "Oh, that's the OLD constitution".

Then I point out, "No, Iraq was a secular country".

Then they say, "But Saddam was a bad man".

Then I say, "Yea, we always knew that, but now it's worse".

Then they say, "No, Iraq is now free".

Then I point out that, "Women are now in burkas and are pretty much slaves".

Then they say, "So were women under Saddam".

Then I say, "No, women under Saddam were able to attend school, divorce, wear western clothes, have a job and go out alone".

Then they say, "But Democrats didn't like Saddam either".

Then I say, "Yes, but they didn't invade Iraq. In fact, Bush's FATHER didn't invade Iraq".

That's where those on the right lose it. When their delusions are threatened, they start calling you names.

Remember, even George Bush thought the Iraqi's were "ungrateful". After all he did for them. And they didn't even ask for his help.

And the right wing still believes we "Won something".

But whatever we supposedly won sure wasn't worth the thousands of military deaths it took to win it.

 

[Intense]

i presumed that rabbi was referring to the surge in iraq. this is widely regarded as a success, and it could be attributed to a recession in insurgency in some parts of iraq. with the US functions in iraq reduced, a great deal of those issues resurfaced since. enough for me to conclude that there wasnt much success in the endeavor at all.

this is why i was opposed to the decision to follow suit with the iraq method altogether, then questioned what might be achieved.

Or, the New Coach has misapplied his resources and dropped the ball. There is no substitute for competence.

since this is not a totalitarian dictatorship, the competence of others is a ready substitute for the competence of any one individual. i see iraq and afghanistan as failed tests for our military, intel and political leadership... some 1000+ individuals and 15+ systems plus contractors, allies and consultants.

it has been nearly a decade we've shown our asses.

Yet the Military and Intelligence Arm is Totalitarian. At least till you hit Command Level, there is no choice, it is a command structure.

 

[geauxtohell]

You mean like Nixon didn't start Nam?

Did I ever claim Nixon started Viet Nam? Would anyone with half a brain claim that Nixon lost Viet Nam?

The Armed Forces as a whole seem to have allot more respect for both Bush's than they do Obama. Why is that?

Quantify that statement. I've found that people on the right seem to think the military is some sort of GOP cheerleading club. The military affords the proper respect to the CINC no matter how big of a dipshit he is.

 

[antagon]

Or, the New Coach has misapplied his resources and dropped the ball. There is no substitute for competence.

As if it was going swimmingly when Junior was in charge. We wouldn't still be there if he had any degree of competence.

Neither of them have done a good job.

However, Obama got handed a giant turd that was six years in the making by Bush. It will fall in his lap ultimately, but it's not like he's the one that started this goat fuck.

He was just the next guy in line.

You mean like Nixon didn't start Nam?

The Armed Forces as a whole seem to have allot more respect for both Bush's than they do Obama. Why is that?

the armed forces seem to respect those neoconservatives who send them to war.

 

[Intense]

I love the way the right says we "WON" something in Iraq. I don't know how many times I have heard them say, "We liberated Iraq and it's now a democracy".

When I point out, "No, Iraq is a hard right Islamic Theocracy", they laugh and point and say, "How idiotic". Then, when I quote the Iraqi Constitution:

Article 2:

First: Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation:

A. No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established.

Full Text of Iraqi Constitution - washingtonpost.com

They come back with, "Oh, that's the OLD constitution".

Then I point out, "No, Iraq was a secular country".

Then they say, "But Saddam was a bad man".

Then I say, "Yea, we always knew that, but now it's worse".

Then they say, "No, Iraq is now free".

Then I point out that, "Women are now in burkas and are pretty much slaves".

Then they say, "So were women under Saddam".

Then I say, "No, women under Saddam were able to attend school, divorce, wear western clothes, have a job and go out alone".

Then they say, "But Democrats didn't like Saddam either".

Then I say, "Yes, but they didn't invade Iraq. In fact, Bush's FATHER didn't invade Iraq".

That's where those on the right lose it. When their delusions are threatened, they start calling you names.

Remember, even George Bush thought the Iraqi's were "ungrateful". After all he did for them. And they didn't even ask for his help.

And the right wing still believes we "Won something".

But whatever we supposedly won sure wasn't worth the thousands of military deaths to win it.

Who knows what path the expansion of Sharia Law, or Jihad would have taken, had we not acted?

 

[antagon]

Or, the New Coach has misapplied his resources and dropped the ball. There is no substitute for competence.

since this is not a totalitarian dictatorship, the competence of others is a ready substitute for the competence of any one individual. i see iraq and afghanistan as failed tests for our military, intel and political leadership... some 1000+ individuals and 15+ systems plus contractors, allies and consultants.

it has been nearly a decade we've shown our asses.

Yet the Military and Intelligence Arm is Totalitarian. At least till you hit Command Level, there is no choice, it is a command structure.

a lot rides on the competency of majors who couldnt effectively execute their commands or communicate circumstances to their commanders.

 

[geauxtohell]

You follow orders. Your Superior's pick and choose, and try not to over reach and sacrifice the integrity of combat effectiveness, by being spread out too thin, or be caught unprepared. What else would you do?

Just that.

That's all you can do when the CINC is a fucking moron who decides to put a conflict in the "Graveyard Of Superpowers" on the back burner while charging into another conflict.

Bush could have been great. If he'd have flooded Afghansitan with every available soldier and Marine right after the SF teams took out the Taliban and dumped a ton of money, time and resources in Afghanistan in the three to four years the Taliban was reeling after Tora Bora, the situation would be much different now.

Instead, he decided to ignore Afghanistan for five years and start a new war under false pretenses.

And you guys would have us believe that Obama is the one that fucked this situation up.

 

[washamericom]

people on the right seem to think the military is some sort of GOP cheerleading club

i like this. is it the reason obama wants a "civilian army"??
the is no subsitute for victory

that's also the battle in this country. sharia law will never "trump" our constitution

loosely translated "you can't treat your momen like shit here, and you can't kill us infidels"

 

[geauxtohell]

since this is not a totalitarian dictatorship, the competence of others is a ready substitute for the competence of any one individual. i see iraq and afghanistan as failed tests for our military, intel and political leadership... some 1000+ individuals and 15+ systems plus contractors, allies and consultants.

it has been nearly a decade we've shown our asses.

Yet the Military and Intelligence Arm is Totalitarian. At least till you hit Command Level, there is no choice, it is a command structure.

a lot rides on the competency of majors who couldnt effectively execute their commands or communicate circumstances to their commanders.

Majors? Other than in SF, Majors aren't in charge of tactical units. They are staff officers. LTCs are kings in Afghanistan, and they had no trouble telling their commanders what was going on. It's irrelevant when the guy at the top isn't listening.

 

[Intense]

As if it was going swimmingly when Junior was in charge. We wouldn't still be there if he had any degree of competence.

Neither of them have done a good job.

However, Obama got handed a giant turd that was six years in the making by Bush. It will fall in his lap ultimately, but it's not like he's the one that started this goat fuck.

He was just the next guy in line.

You mean like Nixon didn't start Nam?

The Armed Forces as a whole seem to have allot more respect for both Bush's than they do Obama. Why is that?

the armed forces seem to respect those neoconservatives who send them to war.

HMMMM.........

Great Depression and World War II
"New" conservatives initially approached this view from the political left. The forerunners of neoconservatism were most often socialists or sometimes liberals who strongly supported the Allied cause in World War II, and who were influenced by the Great Depression-era ideas of the New Deal, trade unionism, and Trotskyism, particularly those who followed the political ideas of Max Shachtman.[citation needed] A number of future neoconservatives, such as Jeane Kirkpatrick,[citation needed] were Shachtmanites in their youth; some were later involved with Social Democrats USA.

Some members of the mid-20th century literary group, The New York Intellectuals were forebears of neoconservatism.[15] The most notable was literary critic Lionel Trilling, who wrote, "In the United States at this time liberalism is not only the dominant but even the sole intellectual tradition." It was this liberal vital center, a term coined by the historian and liberal theorist Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr., that the neoconservatives would see as threatened by New Left extremism. But the majority of vital center liberals remained affiliated with the Democratic Party,[citation needed] retained left-of-center viewpoints, and opposed Republican politicians such as Richard Nixon, who first attracted neoconservative support.[citation needed]

Initially, the neoconservatives were less concerned with foreign policy than with domestic policy. Irving Kristol's journal, The Public Interest, focused on ways that government planning in the liberal state had produced unintended harmful consequences. Norman Podhoretz's magazine Commentary, formerly a journal of the liberal left, had more of a cultural focus, criticizing excesses in the movements for black equality and women's rights, and in the academic left.[citation needed] Through the 1950s and early 1960s the future neoconservatives had been socialists or liberals strongly supportive of the American Civil Rights Movement, integration, and Martin Luther King, Jr..[16][17]

The neoconservatives, arising from the anti-Stalinist left of the 1950s, opposed the anti-capitalism of the New Left of the 1960s. They broke from the liberal consensus of the early post-World War II years in foreign policy, and opposed Détente with the Soviet Union in the late 1960s and 1970s.

Neoconservatism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia