A Tale of Two Surges

[washamericom]

Now there's a fascinating concept.

Yeah, it's called gutless demagoguery. The Dems opposed Bush's policies and voted against them many times but refrained from actually taking action, like ending funding, which would make them take responsibility.

Well, take comfort in the fact that the Republicans can now defund the Afghan war in January.

that may happen

 

[geauxtohell]

I still find it funny that people think there is a military solution in Afghanistan that can be solved with a magic "surge" of troops.

It's like there is a magic number of troops we have to find or something.

The problem in Afghanistan is economic in nature.

BTW, the surge was just window dressing. Iraq was starting to stabilize prior to it.

 

[The Rabbi]

I still find it funny that people think there is a military solution in Afghanistan that can be solved with a magic "surge" of troops.

It's like there is a magic number of troops we have to find or something.

The problem in Afghanistan is economic in nature.

BTW, the surge was just window dressing. Iraq was starting to stabilize prior to it.

Harry Reid: The War is lost.

January 5, 2007: Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi sent a letter to Bush stating, “Surging forces is a strategy that you have already tried and that has already failed. Like many current and former military leaders, we believe that trying again would be a serious mistake.”

Looks like you're wrong on that one.

 

[geauxtohell]

I still find it funny that people think there is a military solution in Afghanistan that can be solved with a magic "surge" of troops.

It's like there is a magic number of troops we have to find or something.

The problem in Afghanistan is economic in nature.

BTW, the surge was just window dressing. Iraq was starting to stabilize prior to it.

Harry Reid: The War is lost.

January 5, 2007: Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi sent a letter to Bush stating, “Surging forces is a strategy that you have already tried and that has already failed. Like many current and former military leaders, we believe that trying again would be a serious mistake.”

Looks like you're wrong on that one.

Oh, so you respect Reid's opinion now?

Reid's a moron. Quit deflecting.

Again, hilarious that you think a magic "surge" can solve every American conflict. Of course, conservatives have demonstrated time and again that they are completely ignorant of tactics in the 21st century.

I mean, how surprised were you guys when Iraq turned into an insurgency fight? I thought we were supposed to be in and out in a few months?

You guys are clueless and, if a simple surge really was the magic bullet to Afghanistan (or any tactical move) or some quick fix, then why didn't Bush do it? I mean, we've been in Afghanistan for two years longer than Iraq.

 

[washamericom]

i had a friend come home from afghanastan not too long after it started, he said "no way" not in these mountains, we'll never find osama. so, orography and economics. choke the poppy supply, cut off the monster's ugly head

 

[geauxtohell]

i had a friend come home from afghanastan not too long after it started, he said "no way" not in these mountains, we'll never find osama. so, orography and economics. choke the poppy supply

When I came home from Afghanistan after a year there in March of 2005, my opinion was that we had exceeded our shelf-life there.

Now, some five years later..............

We've fucked around in that country for almost a decade. Now it's too late to do much of anything. While Obama is the CINC and this will fall in his lap, Bush mismanaged Afghanistan from the onset.

He wasn't interested in fighting a war in Afghanistan. That's why he got our asses in Iraq.

 

[antagon]

i liked the biden deescalation plan. i dont see what is supposed to be gained by a surge in afghanistan.

I presume the goal was to achieve the same level of success as Bush. And to overcome Obama's lack of foreign policy/military experience. Also to give some patina of truth to Obama's criticism of Bush and his claim that Afghanist was "the just war."
In all of those the policy is a gross failure.

i'll buy all that. it was similar to the impression i got when it was declared we'd attempt a surge. i'd add the issue which got bush involved in the two wars: confidence in the advise of military leadership. the military is overconfident avout their capabilities. anyone who believes that the military could efficiently effect an occupation in the mideast/southwest asia is overconfident.

 

[Intense]

i liked the biden deescalation plan. i dont see what is supposed to be gained by a surge in afghanistan.

I presume the goal was to achieve the same level of success as Bush. And to overcome Obama's lack of foreign policy/military experience. Also to give some patina of truth to Obama's criticism of Bush and his claim that Afghanist was "the just war."
In all of those the policy is a gross failure.

Two things have remained constant.

First is my support to going into Afghanistan to find and kill Bin Laden. (You know, the guy Bush said he wasn't concerned about.)

Second is my opposition to the Iraq Invasion and Occupation. (You know, the one Bush said was for finding those pesky WMD's and got thousands of our military KILLED to prove it.)

And to say Bush "had success in Iraq" is like saying Hitler had success in Poland.

And to say Obama's not handling those two items correctly is disingenious at best. Bush fought the Afghan war only half heartily which Obama had to correct.

Equating Iraq to Poland is a bit over the edge Goose, Again equating Bush to Hitler. Peace loving Iraq? Don't you get tired of that bullshit, ever. The problem with Iraq, was Daddy Bush should have resolved it the first time around. His bullshit PC plan was a fail before Desert Storm started. You don't turn your back on a wounded Animal, and that is what Hussein was, spewing poison for a decade, because of a fucked up plan.

 

[geauxtohell]

i liked the biden deescalation plan. i dont see what is supposed to be gained by a surge in afghanistan.

I presume the goal was to achieve the same level of success as Bush. And to overcome Obama's lack of foreign policy/military experience. Also to give some patina of truth to Obama's criticism of Bush and his claim that Afghanist was "the just war."
In all of those the policy is a gross failure.

i'll buy all that. it was similar to the impression i got when it was declared we'd attempt a surge. i'd add the issue which got bush involved in the two wars: confidence in the advise of military leadership. the military is overconfident avout their capabilities. anyone who believes that the military could efficiently effect an occupation in the mideast/southwest asia is overconfident.

Why would you buy that? If Bush was successful, we wouldn't still be in Afghanistan.

Obama is doing his best to put momentum back into an effort that stalled out five years ago.

 

[geauxtohell]

Equating Iraq to Poland is a bit over the edge Goose, Again equating Bush to Hitler. Peace loving Iraq? Don't you get tired of that bullshit, ever. The problem with Iraq, was Daddy Bush should have resolved it the first time around. His bullshit PC plan was a fail before Desert Storm started. You don't turn your back on a wounded Animal, and that is what Hussein was, spewing poison for a decade, because of a fucked up plan.

Daddy was smart enough to know it would turn into a clusterfuck the first time and didn't want to inherit a nation building operation, which is why we didn't go into Baghdad and remove Saddam. We got them out of Kuwait and the stated objectives were accomplished. It was a smart move. Of course, Daddy knew his ass from a hole in the ground because he ran the CIA for a few years and was capable of assessing these things.

Junior was just a fuck up. He should personally kiss the ass of every American Serviceman and woman who served in Iraq. Because it if wasn't for their blood, sweat, and tears in stabilizing Iraq, Bush would most likely be impeached and in prison right now.

 

[antagon]

I presume the goal was to achieve the same level of success as Bush. And to overcome Obama's lack of foreign policy/military experience. Also to give some patina of truth to Obama's criticism of Bush and his claim that Afghanist was "the just war."
In all of those the policy is a gross failure.

i'll buy all that. it was similar to the impression i got when it was declared we'd attempt a surge. i'd add the issue which got bush involved in the two wars: confidence in the advise of military leadership. the military is overconfident avout their capabilities. anyone who believes that the military could efficiently effect an occupation in the mideast/southwest asia is overconfident.

Why would you buy that? If Bush was successful, we wouldn't still be in Afghanistan.

Obama is doing his best to put momentum back into an effort that stalled out five years ago.

i presumed that rabbi was referring to the surge in iraq. this is widely regarded as a success, and it could be attributed to a recession in insurgency in some parts of iraq. with the US functions in iraq reduced, a great deal of those issues resurfaced since. enough for me to conclude that there wasnt much success in the endeavor at all.

this is why i was opposed to the decision to follow suit with the iraq method altogether, then questioned what might be achieved.

 

[DaGoose]

Equating Iraq to Poland is a bit over the edge Goose, Again equating Bush to Hitler. Peace loving Iraq? Don't you get tired of that bullshit, ever. The problem with Iraq, was Daddy Bush should have resolved it the first time around. His bullshit PC plan was a fail before Desert Storm started. You don't turn your back on a wounded Animal, and that is what Hussein was, spewing poison for a decade, because of a fucked up plan.

Daddy was smart enough to know it would turn into a clusterfuck the first time and didn't want to inherit a nation building operation, which is why we didn't go into Baghdad and remove Saddam. We got them out of Kuwait and the stated objectives were accomplished. It was a smart move. Of course, Daddy knew his ass from a hole in the ground because he ran the CIA for a few years and was capable of assessing these things.

Junior was just a fuck up. He should personally kiss the ass of every American Serviceman and woman who served in Iraq. Because it if wasn't for their blood, sweat, and tears in stabilizing Iraq, Bush would most likely be impeached and in prison right now.

This is exactly right.

The reason Bush 1 didn't go into Iraq is to avoid exactly what happened when Sonny Boy did it.

And it's too bad thousand of our military people had be be killed to see that.

 

[DaGoose]

i'll buy all that. it was similar to the impression i got when it was declared we'd attempt a surge. i'd add the issue which got bush involved in the two wars: confidence in the advise of military leadership. the military is overconfident avout their capabilities. anyone who believes that the military could efficiently effect an occupation in the mideast/southwest asia is overconfident.

Why would you buy that? If Bush was successful, we wouldn't still be in Afghanistan.

Obama is doing his best to put momentum back into an effort that stalled out five years ago.

i presumed that rabbi was referring to the surge in iraq. this is widely regarded as a success, and it could be attributed to a recession in insurgency in some parts of iraq. with the US functions in iraq reduced, a great deal of those issues resurfaced since. enough for me to conclude that there wasnt much success in the endeavor at all.

this is why i was opposed to the decision to follow suit with the iraq method altogether, then questioned what might be achieved.

Yes....militarily speaking the surge in Iraq was a success.

But going there in the first place was a monumental blunder of foreign policy that sadly cost thousands of our military personnel their lives.

 

[midcan5]

"We did the Cole and we wanted the United States to react. And if they reacted, they are going to invade Afghanistan and that’s what we want … . Then we will start holy war against the Americans, exactly like the Soviets." Mohammed Atef, military commander of Al Qaeda, in November of 2000


Afghanistan is not Iraq last I checked. Bush's surge was not really a surge as the numbers were small, as many foreign nations left as we added.

Bush's surge was a payoff and not a surge as thousands of Sunnis (not sure if they were only ones paid) were pay 300 a month to be good. How's that for military tactics.

Bush's so called surge happened after they killed and killed and we killed and killed and I think that all people get tired of killing and being killed. At least that would seem sensible.


Afghanistan and Vietnam - NYTimes.com

 

[geauxtohell]

Equating Iraq to Poland is a bit over the edge Goose, Again equating Bush to Hitler. Peace loving Iraq? Don't you get tired of that bullshit, ever. The problem with Iraq, was Daddy Bush should have resolved it the first time around. His bullshit PC plan was a fail before Desert Storm started. You don't turn your back on a wounded Animal, and that is what Hussein was, spewing poison for a decade, because of a fucked up plan.

Daddy was smart enough to know it would turn into a clusterfuck the first time and didn't want to inherit a nation building operation, which is why we didn't go into Baghdad and remove Saddam. We got them out of Kuwait and the stated objectives were accomplished. It was a smart move. Of course, Daddy knew his ass from a hole in the ground because he ran the CIA for a few years and was capable of assessing these things.

Junior was just a fuck up. He should personally kiss the ass of every American Serviceman and woman who served in Iraq. Because it if wasn't for their blood, sweat, and tears in stabilizing Iraq, Bush would most likely be impeached and in prison right now.

This is exactly right.

The reason Bush 1 didn't go into Iraq is to avoid exactly what happened when Sonny Boy did it.

And it's too bad thousand of our military people had be be killed to see that.

But it was all a success. The magical surge wipes away the fact that we were led into this conflict on false pretenses and that it was mismanaged for the entire duration of the conflict and that we have greatly strengthened Iran's position in the region and that, at best, Iraq will represent a moderate Islamic state like Saudi Arabia, which fostered the radical wahibbist mentality that led to September 11th.

If other Americans want to develop selective amnesia, it is their prerogative. I will not.

 

[Intense]

I presume the goal was to achieve the same level of success as Bush. And to overcome Obama's lack of foreign policy/military experience. Also to give some patina of truth to Obama's criticism of Bush and his claim that Afghanist was "the just war."
In all of those the policy is a gross failure.

i'll buy all that. it was similar to the impression i got when it was declared we'd attempt a surge. i'd add the issue which got bush involved in the two wars: confidence in the advise of military leadership. the military is overconfident avout their capabilities. anyone who believes that the military could efficiently effect an occupation in the mideast/southwest asia is overconfident.

Why would you buy that? If Bush was successful, we wouldn't still be in Afghanistan.

Obama is doing his best to put momentum back into an effort that stalled out five years ago.

It's not that the effort stalled out 5 years ago, it's that your perception was flawed, your premise. You were misinformed because the truth conflicted with a political agenda. The only thing that has happened since, is the truth has caught up with you.

 

[Intense]

i'll buy all that. it was similar to the impression i got when it was declared we'd attempt a surge. i'd add the issue which got bush involved in the two wars: confidence in the advise of military leadership. the military is overconfident avout their capabilities. anyone who believes that the military could efficiently effect an occupation in the mideast/southwest asia is overconfident.

Why would you buy that? If Bush was successful, we wouldn't still be in Afghanistan.

Obama is doing his best to put momentum back into an effort that stalled out five years ago.

i presumed that rabbi was referring to the surge in iraq. this is widely regarded as a success, and it could be attributed to a recession in insurgency in some parts of iraq. with the US functions in iraq reduced, a great deal of those issues resurfaced since. enough for me to conclude that there wasnt much success in the endeavor at all.

this is why i was opposed to the decision to follow suit with the iraq method altogether, then questioned what might be achieved.

Or, the New Coach has misapplied his resources and dropped the ball. There is no substitute for competence.

 

[antagon]

Why would you buy that? If Bush was successful, we wouldn't still be in Afghanistan.

Obama is doing his best to put momentum back into an effort that stalled out five years ago.

i presumed that rabbi was referring to the surge in iraq. this is widely regarded as a success, and it could be attributed to a recession in insurgency in some parts of iraq. with the US functions in iraq reduced, a great deal of those issues resurfaced since. enough for me to conclude that there wasnt much success in the endeavor at all.

this is why i was opposed to the decision to follow suit with the iraq method altogether, then questioned what might be achieved.

Yes....militarily speaking the surge in Iraq was a success.

But going there in the first place was a monumental blunder of foreign policy that sadly cost thousands of our military personnel their lives.

only the most orthodox idiots maintain that we should have gone into iraq. i believe that when we turned from al queda to the taliban that we started loitering at the cost of US lives in afghanistan too.

 

[geauxtohell]

i'll buy all that. it was similar to the impression i got when it was declared we'd attempt a surge. i'd add the issue which got bush involved in the two wars: confidence in the advise of military leadership. the military is overconfident avout their capabilities. anyone who believes that the military could efficiently effect an occupation in the mideast/southwest asia is overconfident.

Why would you buy that? If Bush was successful, we wouldn't still be in Afghanistan.

Obama is doing his best to put momentum back into an effort that stalled out five years ago.

It's not that the effort stalled out 5 years ago, it's that your perception was flawed, your premise. You were misinformed because the truth conflicted with a political agenda. The only thing that has happened since, is the truth has caught up with you.

What the fuck does that even mean, slappy?

I was there 5 years ago. I watched us try and conduct Afghanistan on the cheap. Do you know my Infantry Battalion was responsible for an area the size of the state of Vermont? How does an Infantry Battalion cover that much mountainous terrain? Not very well. So don't piss down my leg and tell me it's raining.

 

[geauxtohell]

only the most orthodox idiots maintain that we should have gone into iraq. i believe that when we turned from al queda to the taliban that we started loitering at the cost of US lives in afghanistan too.

That's exactly what happened. The people that keep squawking about the success of the surge are the people whose only vested interest is the Bush Legacy.

Iraq was a disaster and will remain so in years to come the final chapter in Iraq has yet to be written by a long shot.