A return to the "God is evil." problem

[AmericanFirst]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbS7fHuiHbE


I am reposting the video in order to help clarify the position.


If we are to take the boys model of good and evil as truth, we can still conclude that god is evil.

Under the boys model, evil exist if god is not present, good exist if god is present. Now the here is a question for you:Who or what controls god?


Apparently, god controls god. Therefore when god excuses himself from an object or situation, god INTENDS for evil to exist in that object or situation. Considering what is implied in the statement "that God is evil" means that god posses evil intentions or creates evil through his own actions, the statement can still be considered true under the boys model.

Are there any counter-arguement to this claim? Please post.

No we cannot!! God created everything good. Evil is not just the absence of good. Satan is the father of all evil. He tempted Eve in the garden of eden, Adam followed Eve and the fall of man took place. Book of Genesis.

"No we cannot!! God created everything good. Evil is not just the absence of good. Satan is the father of all evil."


are you saying that god did NOT create satan?

are you saying that god is not powerful enough to control satan?

are you saying that god is not powerful enough to stop evil?

in the 1930's and early 1940's there were numerous attempts to assassinate hitler...

ALL of them FAILED! (thanks be to god)

why did god help keep hitler alive?

is god a nazi?

No I am not. God created all the Angels including Lucifer who rose up against God. God can destroy satan but it is not in his plan. There is a bigger picture that we as humans cannot see. God wants to give all mankind a chance, including those not yet born.
Hitler made his own choices and was corrupted by satan. I believe satan is an influence on mankind. God gives us the tools to resist, or not.

 

[AmericanFirst]

You don't blame god for what he tells people to do?

Do you fault Hitler or Goebbels?

You can't blame God. God is God. Man has fallen. God gave man free will, man either chooses to follow God or not.

btw...

can I assume that your handle...AmericanFirst
is incorrect?

aren't you actually....ChristianFirst and American SECOND?

isn't your first loyalty to your god and NOT to your country?

Correct.

 

[AmericanFirst]

My poit in all this is that every atheist I know or have heard actually knows that God exists, they just choose not to believe in him.

 

[JBeukema]

You may believe God instructed the Prophets of Old to do the things claimed justified by him in the Scriptures., that is your Right. I personally don't blame God for the bizarre shit we do, sometimes even in his name

You don't blame god for what he tells people to do?

Do you fault Hitler or Goebbels?

You can't blame God. God is God. Man has fallen. God gave man free will, man either chooses to follow God or not.

Yes... man chooses to obey God's orders to tear open pregnant women and commit genocide or not

 

[JBeukema]

 

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,


1. The devil made you do it.


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

 

[Montrovant]

My poit in all this is that every atheist I know or have heard actually knows that God exists, they just choose not to believe in him.

First, I don't buy into the idea of chosen beliefs. People can claim whatever belief system they like, but if they truly believe it, I don't think it was a choice. When you are presented evidence for something, either it is enough to cause you to believe or it is not. You don't go from a lack of belief, say to yourself, "I want to believe in xxx" and suddenly you do. The rare person may be able and willing to spend a lot of time and effort convincing themselves of a belief, but for most of us it is not a conscious choice.

Second, even ignoring my first point, you contradict yourself. If the people you know or have heard are atheists, they don't believe in god. If they actually know god exists, they are not atheists. Sorry, you can't have both at the same time. I think you mean to say that you have never known any true atheists, just people who claim to be such.

Third, how the hell do you know what the atheists you've known or heard actually believe? What allows you to divine the thoughts of others so easily that you can say that every atheists you've known or heard was a liar about that lack of belief? This sounds to me like more of the 'there are no atheists in foxholes' bs. Unless these atheists you are talking about admitted to a belief in god (which would mean they weren't actually atheists and your point would still be invalid) you are being incredibly arrogant about other people's beliefs. I could as easily say that all the Christians I've known or heard actually didn't believe in god, they just claimed to because they felt it was expected of them.

Unless you are telepathic, you can never truly know what another person thinks or believes.

 

[Wingsofwind]

You may believe God instructed the Prophets of Old to do the things claimed justified by him in the Scriptures., that is your Right. I personally don't blame God for the bizarre shit we do, sometimes even in his name

You don't blame god for what he tells people to do?

Do you fault Hitler or Goebbels?

You can't blame God. God is God. Man has fallen. God gave man free will, man either chooses to follow God or not.

Can you show me where in the Bible it says we have 'free will' to choose to fallow the Lord? We are commanded to fallow Him but where does it say we are 'able' to do so without Him first doing a work in us?

 

[geauxtohell]

Darkness is merely a void resulting from the absence of Light.

Cold is merely a void resulting from the absence of Heat.

Evil is merely a void resulting from the absence of God's presence, or his Ambassador, Conscience.

Einstein was pretty cool, huh. Not in total agreement, but a nice perspective.

Actually, if you want to adopt the Buddist perspective on the matter, good requires bad to exist so that it can validate its own existence.

If a single state of being existed, then mankind would have no perspective or insight that there might be a better or worse way to go about things.

The light must have the dark to have meaning.

 

[Wingsofwind]

First, I don't buy into the idea of chosen beliefs. People can claim whatever belief system they like, but if they truly believe it, I don't think it was a choice. When you are presented evidence for something, either it is enough to cause you to believe or it is not. You don't go from a lack of belief, say to yourself, "I want to believe in xxx" and suddenly you do. The rare person may be able and willing to spend a lot of time and effort convincing themselves of a belief, but for most of us it is not a conscious choice.

I agree whith this statement. What you said is explaining that no one has a true 'free will'.

 

[Father Time]

Darkness is merely a void resulting from the absence of Light.

Cold is merely a void resulting from the absence of Heat.

Evil is merely a void resulting from the absence of God's presence, or his Ambassador, Conscience.

We can measure light, we can measure heat, we cannot measure the presence of God.

 

[Wingsofwind]

I would give an example here to show how God is NOT evil, however I do not have the time ATM.

I will, however, post a reply as another theread when I get back, I will be gone for three days and by then this thread will be so long some will not bother to read.

For some info on what I will be talking about, please read up about the potter and the clay in Romans 9.

Still working on it. It will be long and with scripture, just a warning.

BTW, I am using the KJV.

 

[editec]

You don't blame god for what he tells people to do?

Do you fault Hitler or Goebbels?

You can't blame God. God is God. Man has fallen. God gave man free will, man either chooses to follow God or not.

Can you show me where in the Bible it says we have 'free will' to choose to fallow the Lord? We are commanded to fallow Him but where does it say we are 'able' to do so without Him first doing a work in us?

The phrase :free will" does not exist in the Bible as far as I know, but the story of the fall of Adam is precisely about free will.

Adam and Eve's "free will" got them tossed from the Garden of Eden .

 

[geauxtohell]

Darkness is merely a void resulting from the absence of Light.

Cold is merely a void resulting from the absence of Heat.

Evil is merely a void resulting from the absence of God's presence, or his Ambassador, Conscience.

We can measure light, we can measure heat, we cannot measure the presence of god.

How dare you interject physics into a perfectly good theological discussion!

 

[Wingsofwind]

You can't blame God. God is God. Man has fallen. God gave man free will, man either chooses to follow God or not.

Can you show me where in the Bible it says we have 'free will' to choose to fallow the Lord? We are commanded to fallow Him but where does it say we are 'able' to do so without Him first doing a work in us?

The phrase :free will" does not exist in the Bible as far as I know, but the story of the fall of Adam is precisely about free will.

Adam and Eve's "free will" got them tossed from the Garden of Eden .

Yes you are right, Adam did have a will that was free in a since. However, his will became inslaved to sin when he ate of the tree of knowledge. And from Adam ALL of us are in sin. Thus we have no free will. The concept of everyone having a free will to choose to fallow the Lord or not is NOT taught anywhere in the Bible.

We are not born into the same state that Adam was when he was created, we are born into the state of what Adam was in after he ate from the tree. This IS taught in the Bible. When we are born we are under sin. This is refered to as our nature. Our nature does not alow us to choose to fallow the Lord.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

[editec]

The concept that we have free will is absolutely esential to the theology of Christ.

If we don't have free will then we cannot sin, because those without power to choose cannot be held responsible for choosing.

If it takes GOD'S interdiction to give us faith, then once again, either having faith or not having faith would not be a sin or a blessing to us as WE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

Now the Puritans believed that GOD choose the "Elect" and that all others were destined to hell.

If that's not an example of confused thinking, one hardly knows what is.

Given that the puritans were big time into punishing sinners, but didn't believe that those with faith had anything to do with it, they pretty much set up their entire POV based on an illogic, even illogic without their own religion.

If you cannot choose you cannot SIN.

 

[amrchaos]

Concerning "free will"

Is it true that God created man in an ignorant state so that man can exhibit free will?

If so, then does not religion act against gods intention by teaching man about god--thus attempting to take away man's free will which was what god intended for man to have in the first place?

I think there is something wrong with this arguement. Is it possible that a religion purpose does not include teaching about god?

 

[Missourian]

You don't blame god for what he tells people to do?

Do you fault Hitler or Goebbels?

You can't blame God. God is God. Man has fallen. God gave man free will, man either chooses to follow God or not.

Yes... man chooses to obey God's orders to tear open pregnant women and commit genocide or not

God's command is "Thou shall not commit murder".

 

[Missourian]

Concerning "free will"

Is it true that God created man in an ignorant state so that man can exhibit free will?

If so, then does not religion act against gods intention by teaching man about god--thus attempting to take away man's free will which was what god intended for man to have in the first place?

I think there is something wrong with this arguement. Is it possible that a religion purpose does not include teaching about god?

Not "take away"...offer a choice.

One may choose to believe or not.

 

[JBeukema]

You can't blame God. God is God. Man has fallen. God gave man free will, man either chooses to follow God or not.

Yes... man chooses to obey God's orders to tear open pregnant women and commit genocide or not

God's command is "Thou shall not commit murder".

And he conveniently doesn't consider ripping open a pregnant Hittite woman or killing a 3-year-old Ammonite boy to be murder.

joy