A return to the "God is evil." problem

[Montrovant]

Concerning "free will"

Is it true that God created man in an ignorant state so that man can exhibit free will?

If so, then does not religion act against gods intention by teaching man about god--thus attempting to take away man's free will which was what god intended for man to have in the first place?

I think there is something wrong with this arguement. Is it possible that a religion purpose does not include teaching about god?

Not "take away"...offer a choice.

One may choose to believe or not.

As I've said previously, I don't think we really choose belief. For example, I cannot choose to believe in the Tooth Fairy. I don't believe, I would need some sort of new evidence or maybe years of lying to myself to change that belief.

Now, if you say people can choose to follow the laws of god or not, that's an argument about free will I can accept.

 

[Wingsofwind]

The concept that we have free will is absolutely esential to the theology of Christ.

If we don't have free will then we cannot sin, because those without power to choose cannot be held responsible for choosing.

If it takes GOD'S interdiction to give us faith, then once again, either having faith or not having faith would not be a sin or a blessing to us as WE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

Now the Puritans believed that GOD choose the "Elect" and that all others were destined to hell.

If that's not an example of confused thinking, one hardly knows what is.

Given that the puritans were big time into punishing sinners, but didn't believe that those with faith had anything to do with it, they pretty much set up their entire POV based on an illogic, even illogic without their own religion.

If you cannot choose you cannot SIN.

The lord commands us to fallow Him. However, while we are in our natural state we will NOT fallow Him. This is the sin we are all guilty of. We are born dead in sin and are unable to become alive on our own. The story of Lazarus being quickened from the tomb is an example of our state. We are dead as Lazarus was and are unable by our own 'will' to come to life and fallow the Lord. The Lord quickend Lazarus to life first, THEN he was able to do as Christ commanded. Was Lazarus able to 'choose' to do as Christ commanded without first being quickened to life first?

You say that 'free will' is esential to the theology of Christ but you do not provide any evidence to support you claim. So far it is only what people have put to gether to fit their 'feelings' about scripture.

Adam's sin is cast on us. Christ's punishment is what frees us from that sin. However, no one can be free unless they believe and they can not believe unless the Lord makes them 'able' to. I have posted scripture to show that no one by their own 'free will' will or are able choose to fallow the Lord.

The concept of having 'free will' to choose to fallow the Lord is in contradiction of what the Bible teaches. If you believe it is not then please provide scripture showing how 'free will' fits into what is taught in the Bible.

 

[Wingsofwind]

editec

Can you tell me how 'free will' fits in with this passage?

Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. .
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

 

[JBeukema]

The concept that we have free will is absolutely esential to the theology of Christ.

If we don't have free will then we cannot sin, because those without power to choose cannot be held responsible for choosing.

If it takes GOD'S interdiction to give us faith, then once again, either having faith or not having faith would not be a sin or a blessing to us as WE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

Now the Puritans believed that GOD choose the "Elect" and that all others were destined to hell.

If that's not an example of confused thinking, one hardly knows what is.

Given that the puritans were big time into punishing sinners, but didn't believe that those with faith had anything to do with it, they pretty much set up their entire POV based on an illogic, even illogic without their own religion.

If you cannot choose you cannot SIN.

The lord commands us to fallow Him.

What?


If I didn't know any better, I'd say you sound like one of our old trolls...

 

[Urbanguerrilla]

Yes you are right, Adam did have a will that was free in a since. However, his will became inslaved to sin when he ate of the tree of knowledge. And from Adam ALL of us are in sin. Thus we have no free will. The concept of everyone having a free will to choose to fallow the Lord or not is NOT taught anywhere in the Bible.

So knowledge made him a sinner; and ignorance makes you holy? Strange.

Doesnt seem fair that Adam sinned and ALL of us must suffer because of that misdemeanor. Why cant we all have a choice like he did?

The Bible seems inadequate then as the 'word of god'.

 

[Wingsofwind]

The concept that we have free will is absolutely esential to the theology of Christ.

If we don't have free will then we cannot sin, because those without power to choose cannot be held responsible for choosing.

If it takes GOD'S interdiction to give us faith, then once again, either having faith or not having faith would not be a sin or a blessing to us as WE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

Now the Puritans believed that GOD choose the "Elect" and that all others were destined to hell.

If that's not an example of confused thinking, one hardly knows what is.

Given that the puritans were big time into punishing sinners, but didn't believe that those with faith had anything to do with it, they pretty much set up their entire POV based on an illogic, even illogic without their own religion.

If you cannot choose you cannot SIN.

The lord commands us to fallow Him.

What?


If I didn't know any better, I'd say you sound like one of our old trolls...

I have never been on this site with another name.

And if you have ever read the Bible you will know that the Lord does command us to follow Him and have no other God but the Lord.

 

[editec]

editec

Can you tell me how 'free will' fits in with this passage?

Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. .
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

I don't really think it's addressing the issue of FREE WILL.

It warns us that good works do not lead to salvation and that only FAITH in GOD does.

If one doesn't have free will to choose to have faith, if faith is a gift that is given to some and withheld from others, then really your GOD is a monster, isn't he?

If Faith isn't a matter of will then the GOD you believe in condemns some to not have faith, ergo to be damned.

Were you aware that your belief system is the same as the PURITANS?

 

[Wingsofwind]

Yes you are right, Adam did have a will that was free in a since. However, his will became inslaved to sin when he ate of the tree of knowledge. And from Adam ALL of us are in sin. Thus we have no free will. The concept of everyone having a free will to choose to fallow the Lord or not is NOT taught anywhere in the Bible.

So knowledge made him a sinner; and ignorance makes you holy? Strange.

Doesnt seem fair that Adam sinned and ALL of us must suffer because of that misdemeanor. Why cant we all have a choice like he did?

The Bible seems inadequate then as the 'word of god'.

NO, knowledge didn't make him a sinner. Adam's disobedience to the Lord is what made him a sinner. And Adam's disobedience caused sin to come into the world and that sin is now in our natural nature of being spiritually dead.

We can not have a 'choice' like Adam did because we are born 'spiritually dead'. Only those of the Spirit can seek spiritual things.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

And just because something from the Bible seems inadequate don't mean it is not the Word of God. If it seems inadequate, then maybe you need to do more studying on it.

 

[Wingsofwind]

editec

Can you tell me how 'free will' fits in with this passage?

Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. .
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

I don't really think it's addressing the issue of FREE WILL.

It warns us that good works do not lead to salvation and that only FAITH in GOD does.

If one doesn't have free will to choose to have faith, if faith is a gift that is given to some and withheld from others, then really your GOD is a monster, isn't he?

If Faith isn't a matter of will then the GOD you believe in condemns some to not have faith, ergo to be damned.

Were you aware that your belief system is the same as the PURITANS?

Faith is a gift.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God

To 'choose' is to do something, thus it is a work.

You still have not shown any scripture to back up 'YOUR' belief.

And I don't know much about the Puritans, but I do know that some of what I believe is what they did. I have been known as a 'Calvinist', however I never knew who he was untill I was called one...lol.

My beliefs came from studing the Bible and praying for understanding. Not from anyone teaching me these things. Infact all that I have been taught I have come to know it is nothing but lies.

 

[Mini 14]

Maybe God only exists for those who have faith? Maybe "evil" is merely the absence of God in one's life, not the physical absence of God? Some of us see "good" where many only see evil. As I've said countless times before, I do not consider death a sad event. It is more joyous than birth, if you know Christ and God.

Maybe it doesn't matter, because if you know God, you have faith and comfort, but if you don't know God, you spend your life trying to convince people that God doesn't exist?

Why does it bother atheists and agnostics so much that some of us believe in God? I know God. He's a great guy. Great sense of humor, very fair, always there if you need him, and will give you everything you truly need, whether you realize you need it or not. He wants to know you, but as he told you all along, it is up to you. If you want to know him, all you have to do is ask.

Ask HIM.

Not us.

 

[editec]

editec

Can you tell me how 'free will' fits in with this passage?

Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. .
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

I don't really think it's addressing the issue of FREE WILL.

It warns us that good works do not lead to salvation and that only FAITH in GOD does.

If one doesn't have free will to choose to have faith, if faith is a gift that is given to some and withheld from others, then really your GOD is a monster, isn't he?

If Faith isn't a matter of will then the GOD you believe in condemns some to not have faith, ergo to be damned.

Were you aware that your belief system is the same as the PURITANS?

Faith is a gift.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God

To 'choose' is to do something, thus it is a work.

You still have not shown any scripture to back up 'YOUR' belief.

And I don't know much about the Puritans, but I do know that some of what I believe is what they did. I have been known as a 'Calvinist', however I never knew who he was untill I was called one...lol.

My beliefs came from studing the Bible and praying for understanding. Not from anyone teaching me these things. Infact all that I have been taught I have come to know it is nothing but lies.

You're doing a fine job of finding the Scripture we can discuss, Wings.

Do I really need to quote Genesis, or can I assume you are familiar with it?

Did Adam and Eve have free will before they choose to eat of the tree of knowledge?

A simple Yes or No will suffice.

If you tell me no, then I hate break this to you, but you do not understand the basic premise of the religion you profess to believe.

 

[Wingsofwind]

I don't really think it's addressing the issue of FREE WILL.

It warns us that good works do not lead to salvation and that only FAITH in GOD does.

If one doesn't have free will to choose to have faith, if faith is a gift that is given to some and withheld from others, then really your GOD is a monster, isn't he?

If Faith isn't a matter of will then the GOD you believe in condemns some to not have faith, ergo to be damned.

Were you aware that your belief system is the same as the PURITANS?

Faith is a gift.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God

To 'choose' is to do something, thus it is a work.

You still have not shown any scripture to back up 'YOUR' belief.

And I don't know much about the Puritans, but I do know that some of what I believe is what they did. I have been known as a 'Calvinist', however I never knew who he was untill I was called one...lol.

My beliefs came from studing the Bible and praying for understanding. Not from anyone teaching me these things. Infact all that I have been taught I have come to know it is nothing but lies.

You're doing a fine job of finding the Scripture we can discuss, Wings.

Do I really need to quote Genesis, or can I assume you are familiar with it?

Did Adam and Eve have free will before they choose to eat of the tree of knowledge?

A simple Yes or No will suffice.

If you tell me no, then I hate break this to you, but you do not understand the basic premise of the religion you profess to believe.

Apparently you didn't read one of my responces to you...'Yes you are right, Adam did have a will that was free in a since.'

Adam was told that in the 'day' he ate of the tree he would shurly die right? What did this mean? When he ate from the tree he didn't physically die that day did he? Since he didn't die physically then he had to have died in another way. The only other death mentioned in the Bible is spiritual death. So this means that God ment that Adam would die spiritually the day he eats of the tree.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

In order for one to no longer be spiritually dead, they have to be quickened by the Spirit of Chirst....the last Adam....

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

The will of Adam was not 'totally' free. His will was influenced by Eve giving him the fruit. Eve's will was influenced by the serpent. A will is only free if it is not influenced by anything outside of it.

 

[amrchaos]

Concerning "free will"

Is it true that God created man in an ignorant state so that man can exhibit free will?

If so, then does not religion act against gods intention by teaching man about god--thus attempting to take away man's free will which was what god intended for man to have in the first place?

I think there is something wrong with this arguement. Is it possible that a religion purpose does not include teaching about god?

Not "take away"...offer a choice.

One may choose to believe or not.

So in other words, knowledge of god does not take away ones free will. Thus the reason why man is born into an ignorant state has nothing to do with free will!!

So--why is it that god creates man without the knowledge of god? If god wants man to know god, would not man know god? Or is it that knowing of god is not important to man's well being?