A Question Regarding Religion in America

[Sunni Man]

If people want to defend to the death my freedom of religion.

That is fine with me.

But don't expect me to give my life to protect your rights of worship.

If another religion became dominate and tried to force their beliefs on me.

Then the fight would be on.

Why would not defend others right to worship? You would recieve but wouldnt give the same? It just doesnt make sense.

I am NOT going to defend other religions right's.

I don't believe in their theology or doctrine.

If they are oppressed or even exterminated.

All I can say is good riddance

 

[AVG-JOE]

A question for my Christian, Jewish and Muslim brothers and sisters... ('though representatives of any faith may feel free to chime in)

My personal belief is that you three groups in particular are wrong. This, of course is just my humble opinion.

I believe that if there is a God of this world, He / She / It is much larger than the brief and small window into the history of life on earth that any of your 'holy' books reveal.

That being said, as an American I would defend your rights to be wrong to my last breath.

My question is: Would you, as an American, also defend my right to be wrong?

Perhaps in your humble opinion, I am wrong. As far as I'm concerned, you have that right.

-Joe

Sure. That holy book you so determinedly misunderstand tells me that people must come to God freely, which means I have to allow for them to be wrong until they get it right.

I have two questions. One, why did you feel it so necessary to include your rather offensive opinions instead of simply asking the question, and two, why do you think it's even necessary to ask?

First of all, I am asking people if they would be willing to defend my right to cling to my opinions, so I felt that everyone should know how truly offensive they are before asking for that commitment.

Secondly, I hear people all over this board and elsewhere talk a great talk about freedom, especially freedom of religion, but most act more like Sunni man says he would - willing to defend every persons right to think individually, as long as their opinions conformed to those authorized by the moral majority.

I honestly want to know if the Christian, Jewish and Muslim communities in America are strong enough in their sense of religious freedom and secure enough in their faith to defend my right to believe that they are fools.

-Joe

 

[AVG-JOE]

If people want to defend to the death my freedom of religion.

That is fine with me.

But don't expect me to give my life to protect your rights of worship.

If another religion became dominate and tried to force their beliefs on me.

Then the fight would be on.

Why would not defend others right to worship? You would recieve but wouldnt give the same? It just doesnt make sense.

I am NOT going to defend other religions right's.

I don't believe in their theology or doctrine.

If they are oppressed or even exterminated.

All I can say is good riddance

On paper at least, America may not be the best place for you to raise your kids, Bud.

Reality may be quite different, depending on your particular beliefs.

-Joe

 

[Cecilie1200]

A question for my Christian, Jewish and Muslim brothers and sisters... ('though representatives of any faith may feel free to chime in)

My personal belief is that you three groups in particular are wrong. This, of course is just my humble opinion.

I believe that if there is a God of this world, He / She / It is much larger than the brief and small window into the history of life on earth that any of your 'holy' books reveal.

That being said, as an American I would defend your rights to be wrong to my last breath.

My question is: Would you, as an American, also defend my right to be wrong?

Perhaps in your humble opinion, I am wrong. As far as I'm concerned, you have that right.

-Joe

Sure. That holy book you so determinedly misunderstand tells me that people must come to God freely, which means I have to allow for them to be wrong until they get it right.

I have two questions. One, why did you feel it so necessary to include your rather offensive opinions instead of simply asking the question, and two, why do you think it's even necessary to ask?

First of all, I am asking people if they would be willing to defend my right to cling to my opinions, so I felt that everyone should know how truly offensive they are before asking for that commitment.

Secondly, I hear people all over this board and elsewhere talk a great talk about freedom, especially freedom of religion, but most act more like Sunni man says he would - willing to defend every persons right to think individually, as long as their opinions conformed to those authorized by the moral majority.

I honestly want to know if the Christian, Jewish and Muslim communities in America are strong enough in their sense of religious freedom and secure enough in their faith to defend my right to believe that they are fools.

-Joe

I haven't noticed anyone other than Sunni and a few other dimwits of his ilk indicating any desire to take away your right to believe anything you want, although I realize that many with your beliefs suffer from delusions of persecution any time someone dares to simply disagree with them.

It's always seemed to me that the people who are truly insecure in their beliefs and desire for religious freedom to defend the right of the poiltically incorrect religions to exist.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Sure. That holy book you so determinedly misunderstand tells me that people must come to God freely, which means I have to allow for them to be wrong until they get it right.

I have two questions. One, why did you feel it so necessary to include your rather offensive opinions instead of simply asking the question, and two, why do you think it's even necessary to ask?

First of all, I am asking people if they would be willing to defend my right to cling to my opinions, so I felt that everyone should know how truly offensive they are before asking for that commitment.

Secondly, I hear people all over this board and elsewhere talk a great talk about freedom, especially freedom of religion, but most act more like Sunni man says he would - willing to defend every persons right to think individually, as long as their opinions conformed to those authorized by the moral majority.

I honestly want to know if the Christian, Jewish and Muslim communities in America are strong enough in their sense of religious freedom and secure enough in their faith to defend my right to believe that they are fools.

-Joe

I haven't noticed anyone other than Sunni and a few other dimwits of his ilk indicating any desire to take away your right to believe anything you want, although I realize that many with your beliefs suffer from delusions of persecution any time someone dares to simply disagree with them.

It's always seemed to me that the people who are truly insecure in their beliefs and desire for religious freedom to defend the right of the poiltically incorrect religions to exist.

Nobody, including Sunni Man, on this thread has said anything about taking away anybodies right to think what they like about religion. The thesis question of the thread is 'Would you defend another Americans right to believe something, even if you personally thought they were wrong?'

I for one stated in the opening post that, while I do not share a faith with Christians, Muslims and Jews in particular, I would defend their right to believe what ever they want, so long as their behavior conformed to the laws we agree to live by.

There was, I admit, an underlying caveat twist that I was seeking. From Christians, Jews and Muslims in particular, I am looking for a commitment to put the American ideal of protecting the religious rights of others ahead of the human need to be 'right' in our religious passions.

Will you defend my right to be wrong as I will defend yours? Can I be your neighbor in spite of the fact that you think I am going to burn in hell and I think that you are a fool?

As far as I am concerned we can, but I am only half the equation.

-Joe

 

[Avatar4321]

Nobody, including Sunni Man, on this thread has said anything about taking away anybodies right to think what they like about religion. The thesis question of the thread is 'Would you defend another Americans right to believe something, even if you personally thought they were wrong?'

I for one stated in the opening post that, while I do not share a faith with Christians, Muslims and Jews in particular, I would defend their right to believe what ever they want, so long as their behavior conformed to the laws we agree to live by.

There was, I admit, an underlying caveat twist that I was seeking. From Christians, Jews and Muslims in particular, I am looking for a commitment to put the American ideal of protecting the religious rights of others ahead of the human need to be 'right' in our religious passions.

Will you defend my right to be wrong as I will defend yours? Can I be your neighbor in spite of the fact that you think I am going to burn in hell and I think that you are a fool?

As far as I am concerned we can, but I am only half the equation.

-Joe

But what if we dont agree with the laws? How can we conform to laws we dont agree with? do we then have the right to form our own communities separate where our laws can be maintained? At what point do we tolerate bad laws in society and at what point do we have the right to separate ourselves from said society and live by our own covenants?

I guess Im asking a more complex question then simply religious belief. What point do the people have a right to create their own nation?

 

[AVG-JOE]

Nobody, including Sunni Man, on this thread has said anything about taking away anybodies right to think what they like about religion. The thesis question of the thread is 'Would you defend another Americans right to believe something, even if you personally thought they were wrong?'

I for one stated in the opening post that, while I do not share a faith with Christians, Muslims and Jews in particular, I would defend their right to believe what ever they want, so long as their behavior conformed to the laws we agree to live by.

There was, I admit, an underlying caveat twist that I was seeking. From Christians, Jews and Muslims in particular, I am looking for a commitment to put the American ideal of protecting the religious rights of others ahead of the human need to be 'right' in our religious passions.

Will you defend my right to be wrong as I will defend yours? Can I be your neighbor in spite of the fact that you think I am going to burn in hell and I think that you are a fool?

As far as I am concerned we can, but I am only half the equation.

-Joe

But what if we dont agree with the laws? How can we conform to laws we dont agree with? do we then have the right to form our own communities separate where our laws can be maintained? At what point do we tolerate bad laws in society and at what point do we have the right to separate ourselves from said society and live by our own covenants?

I guess Im asking a more complex question then simply religious belief. What point do the people have a right to create their own nation?

We have to start with the ones that we can agree on - Thou shall not steal does not need to be carved in stone, most of us can probably agree that punishing people who steal is a good idea.

Personally I think that if 75% of us can't agree to a rule, we should kick it down a level. For example, if 75% of Americans can't agree whether marijuana should be illegal, let each state decide. If we end up with a bunch of very different places to visit, would that be so bad?

-Joe

 

[Cecilie1200]

First of all, I am asking people if they would be willing to defend my right to cling to my opinions, so I felt that everyone should know how truly offensive they are before asking for that commitment.

Secondly, I hear people all over this board and elsewhere talk a great talk about freedom, especially freedom of religion, but most act more like Sunni man says he would - willing to defend every persons right to think individually, as long as their opinions conformed to those authorized by the moral majority.

I honestly want to know if the Christian, Jewish and Muslim communities in America are strong enough in their sense of religious freedom and secure enough in their faith to defend my right to believe that they are fools.

-Joe

I haven't noticed anyone other than Sunni and a few other dimwits of his ilk indicating any desire to take away your right to believe anything you want, although I realize that many with your beliefs suffer from delusions of persecution any time someone dares to simply disagree with them.

It's always seemed to me that the people who are truly insecure in their beliefs and desire for religious freedom to defend the right of the poiltically incorrect religions to exist.

Nobody, including Sunni Man, on this thread has said anything about taking away anybodies right to think what they like about religion. The thesis question of the thread is 'Would you defend another Americans right to believe something, even if you personally thought they were wrong?'

Please. Sunni is all about suppressing those who don't agree with him. Why do you think I keep his ignorant ass on ignore?

I for one stated in the opening post that, while I do not share a faith with Christians, Muslims and Jews in particular, I would defend their right to believe what ever they want, so long as their behavior conformed to the laws we agree to live by.

And now you want a cookie for your great magnanimity?

CS Lewis said in "The Screwtape Letters" that it was a goal of Hell to get people to be paranoid of that sin which they were least in danger of committing. Thus, licentious societies fear the horrors of Puritanical oppression, for example. And thus does this board have you concerned with whether or not Christians respect the right of others enough to defend them while on several occasions, I have heard people - all innocently and earnestly - expressing the belief that Christians and their beliefs should be barred from the public arena to serve some apocryphal idea of "separation of church and state".

Am I now supposed to be impressed that you have so generously agreed that people you disagree with should be allowed to believe as they please? Should I thank you?

There was, I admit, an underlying caveat twist that I was seeking.

This is me NOT falling off my chair from shock.

From Christians, Jews and Muslims in particular, I am looking for a commitment to put the American ideal of protecting the religious rights of others ahead of the human need to be 'right' in our religious passions.

Right back atcha, buddy boy, and with a hell of a lot more urgency, since your side is the one encroaching on freedom of belief and practice, not mine.

Will you defend my right to be wrong as I will defend yours?

Call me when you actually start this glorious defense, all right? I won't hold my breath.

Can I be your neighbor in spite of the fact that you think I am going to burn in hell and I think that you are a fool?

I doubt it. You seem to want medals simply for the enormous act of allowing me to exist, and that would get old fast.

By the way, I don't think you're going to Hell. I am carefully instructed by the holy book you disdain to not presume to have an opinion about the state of someone else's soul. I leave that sort of excessive judgementalism to YOUR side.

As far as I am concerned we can, but I am only half the equation.

-Joe

Exactly half, and not the half you flatter yourself to think it is.

 

[AllieBaba]

Of course Id defend your right to be wrong.

I would, however, ask you what you meant about God being bigger than what the Holy Books covers. God has paid the price for all mankind to be redeemed. I dont know how much bigger is possible.

I appreciate your opinion of that particular story in our history and your faith in its promise, but I do not believe the story has been accurately retold and I do not share your faith in it's current relevance.

Whether or not we can be brought to agreement as to current relevance of the redemption story of The Bible is not the question, the question is whether or not we each have an equal right to our differing opinions about it in America.

It is important because there are some countries where a contrary opinion in religious matters can make you a second class citizen in the eyes of the political majority - I want to see if America is still one of them.

-Joe

You absolutely have the right to your belief and good Christians will die to defend that right...as we did during the revolutionary, civil and every war since.

Good Christians believe in religious freedom, nobody has a deeper desire to see it.

I challenge anyone to find evidence of true Christians attempting to silence those of other faiths. I, however, can provide ample evidence of progressive leftards attempting to shut down and bring about mainstream discrimination against Christians, however. By attempting to penalize Christians economically, politically and socially for daring to admit they are Christian.

 

[Sunni Man]

Of course Id defend your right to be wrong.

I would, however, ask you what you meant about God being bigger than what the Holy Books covers. God has paid the price for all mankind to be redeemed. I dont know how much bigger is possible.

I appreciate your opinion of that particular story in our history and your faith in its promise, but I do not believe the story has been accurately retold and I do not share your faith in it's current relevance.

Whether or not we can be brought to agreement as to current relevance of the redemption story of The Bible is not the question, the question is whether or not we each have an equal right to our differing opinions about it in America.

It is important because there are some countries where a contrary opinion in religious matters can make you a second class citizen in the eyes of the political majority - I want to see if America is still one of them.

-Joe

Good Christians believe in religious freedom, nobody has a deeper desire to see it.

What doctrine, teaching of Jesus, or verse in the Bible, do you base your statement on?

 

[Big Black Dog]

Avg - Joe - In the US you have Freedom of Religion which means you are free to worship in anyway that you please and believe in whatever you care to believe in. You also have the right to not believe in anything if that is your wish.

 

[Al Gunn]

Avg - Joe - In the US you have Freedom of Religion which means you are free to worship in anyway that you please and believe in whatever you care to believe in. You also have the right to not believe in anything if that is your wish.

Not true, In the US if you don't believe in god, you can't get elected, that's no freedom. And you can get your rights taken away, like no gay marriage, if you're against the teachings of the bible.

 

[AllieBaba]

Avg - Joe - In the US you have Freedom of Religion which means you are free to worship in anyway that you please and believe in whatever you care to believe in. You also have the right to not believe in anything if that is your wish.

Not true, In the US if you don't believe in god, you can't get elected, that's no freedom. And you can get your rights taken away, like no gay marriage, if you're against the teachings of the bible.

Bullshit. "Gay marriage" isn't a right that's being removed from people.

And yes, you can get elected if you don't believe in God, nitwit.

 

[Al Gunn]

Avg - Joe - In the US you have Freedom of Religion which means you are free to worship in anyway that you please and believe in whatever you care to believe in. You also have the right to not believe in anything if that is your wish.

Not true, In the US if you don't believe in god, you can't get elected, that's no freedom. And you can get your rights taken away, like no gay marriage, if you're against the teachings of the bible.

Bullshit. "Gay marriage" isn't a right that's being removed from people.

And yes, you can get elected if you don't believe in God, nitwit.

Ya right, Obama could have said that there's no invisible super daddy and he'd have gotten elected? Maybe you should go have a strong coffeee, it appears that you're not fully awake yet.

As for gay marriage, religious people in california voted out gay marriage (equal rights), were you asleep during that as well?

 

[AllieBaba]

The majority refused to change the definition of marriage.

Big diff.

And oh, btw, you're a complete idiot.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Avg - Joe - In the US you have Freedom of Religion which means you are free to worship in anyway that you please and believe in whatever you care to believe in. You also have the right to not believe in anything if that is your wish.

Not true, In the US if you don't believe in god, you can't get elected, that's no freedom. And you can get your rights taken away, like no gay marriage, if you're against the teachings of the bible.

Oh, damn. To get elected, you have to espouse ideas that the majority of the voters like and identify with. It's TYRANNY, I tell you! I should be able to get elected no matter WHAT I say or stand for!

And there's never BEEN a "right" to gay "marriage", so how the hell can it have been taken away, Mensa Boy? If I put my ear up against yours, would I be able to hear the ocean?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Not true, In the US if you don't believe in god, you can't get elected, that's no freedom. And you can get your rights taken away, like no gay marriage, if you're against the teachings of the bible.

Bullshit. "Gay marriage" isn't a right that's being removed from people.

And yes, you can get elected if you don't believe in God, nitwit.

Ya right, Obama could have said that there's no invisible super daddy and he'd have gotten elected? Maybe you should go have a strong coffeee, it appears that you're not fully awake yet.

As for gay marriage, religious people in california voted out gay marriage (equal rights), were you asleep during that as well?

California never HAD homosexual "marriage". It's never existed there. Some bunch of unelected lawyers in black robes decided they were going to rewrite the law, and the people of California were forced to reiterate the status quo. They didn't vote anything "out", because they had never voted it in in the first place. Were you brain-damaged during that as well?

 

[Avatar4321]

Avg - Joe - In the US you have Freedom of Religion which means you are free to worship in anyway that you please and believe in whatever you care to believe in. You also have the right to not believe in anything if that is your wish.

Not true, In the US if you don't believe in god, you can't get elected, that's no freedom. And you can get your rights taken away, like no gay marriage, if you're against the teachings of the bible.

You can be elected if you dont believe in God. Even if you couldn't, you are still free to believe or disbelieve.

There was no right that was taken away. And there are plenty of non religious reasons for opposing gay "marriage." There is little if any reason to redefine marriage simply to make people happy about their poor choices in life.

 

[Avatar4321]

Ya right, Obama could have said that there's no invisible super daddy and he'd have gotten elected? Maybe you should go have a strong coffeee, it appears that you're not fully awake yet.

That's pure conjecture on your part.

As for gay marriage, religious people in california voted out gay marriage (equal rights), were you asleep during that as well?

No rights were lost in the passage of the bill. Youd realize this if you were actually informed on the debate.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Nobody, including Sunni Man, on this thread has said anything about taking away anybodies right to think what they like about religion. The thesis question of the thread is 'Would you defend another Americans right to believe something, even if you personally thought they were wrong?'

I for one stated in the opening post that, while I do not share a faith with Christians, Muslims and Jews in particular, I would defend their right to believe what ever they want, so long as their behavior conformed to the laws we agree to live by.

There was, I admit, an underlying caveat twist that I was seeking. From Christians, Jews and Muslims in particular, I am looking for a commitment to put the American ideal of protecting the religious rights of others ahead of the human need to be 'right' in our religious passions.

Will you defend my right to be wrong as I will defend yours? Can I be your neighbor in spite of the fact that you think I am going to burn in hell and I think that you are a fool?

As far as I am concerned we can, but I am only half the equation.

-Joe

But what if we dont agree with the laws? How can we conform to laws we dont agree with? do we then have the right to form our own communities separate where our laws can be maintained? At what point do we tolerate bad laws in society and at what point do we have the right to separate ourselves from said society and live by our own covenants?

I guess Im asking a more complex question then simply religious belief. What point do the people have a right to create their own nation?

At this point in time in our evolution as a planetary society it appears to still be when a chunk of dirt can be declared independent and that independence defended militarily long enough to be officially recognized by all the other independently defended chunks of dirt.

Kind of barbaric I know, but we, as a species, are taking our baby steps toward planetary goals and personal freedom and, so far at least, we are still moving forward.

I realize that knowing that does not make walking around like a toddler with skinned knees and pants full of poop any less uncomfortable, but if we keep struggling forward on bloody knees, standing when we can and learning along the way, our children will reach for the stars - it's an admirable goal.

-Joe