A question for those who support abortion.

Discussion in 'Politics' started by RWNJ, Jan 3, 2018.

  1. Borillar
    Offline

    Borillar Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    Messages:
    6,597
    Thanks Received:
    1,123
    Trophy Points:
    255
    Location:
    Pacific NW
    Ratings:
    +3,179
    People on life support are frequently disconnected and allowed to die. Some people don't want extraordinary measures to be taken to prolong their lives. Some people do. Some are in a vegetative state and have a family member make the decision on their behalf. There are worse things than death.
     
  2. RWNJ
    Offline

    RWNJ Gold Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2015
    Messages:
    2,717
    Thanks Received:
    382
    Trophy Points:
    170
    Ratings:
    +2,164
    Irrelevant. Someone made the claim that a fetus is not alive because it requires life support. How is that any different for an adult on life support?
     
  3. sakinago
    Offline

    sakinago Gold Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2012
    Messages:
    3,026
    Thanks Received:
    332
    Trophy Points:
    130
    Ratings:
    +1,245
    Yes they do respirate on their own, they take in nutrition on their own. Is it through the mother, sure. But it doesn’t all of a sudden go from an anaerobic being to an aerobic being once it’s left the womb, or once the umbilical is cut. Breathing is just the exchange of gasses, It’s been aerobic the entire time. It all of a sudden doesn’t need nutrition once it’s left the womb or it’s unbilical cord is cut. It’s always needed nutrition, like anything that grows alarmingly that fast. If what you’re saying is true than anyone who uses a feeding tube, ventilator, inhaler, O2 supplement, or whatever is fit to die.

    And you don’t know an unborn fetus can’t breath, at 28 weeks they can, just not well and they need plenty of assistance to help them breath. It probably needs a feeding tube as well. So what’s the difference? The fact that it’s provided by the mother vs a machine? Is it because the mother “owns” her body, therefore she can do what she wishes with it? Can a hospital owner go around just turning life saving machines off just because they “own” them? NO, we would throw that guy away to rot in prison in a heartbeat.

    Here’s the stupid part of this debate. THERE IS ZERO NEED FOR ABORTION. Birth control has become so easy, effective, cheap, accessible, etc, that there is ZERO excuse for saying “whoopsy” I was stupid and got pregnant. No in 99.879% of cases of abortion, they were all avoidible taking simple, cheap, easily obtainable steps to prevent it. If a truck driver makes a mistake, we throw them in prison with manslaughter, but when irresponsible people make a mistake, and participate in the act of reproduction, and are somehow surprised when they become pregnant...we say, yea no need to take personal responsibility for your actions, we’ll give you as many redo’s as you want, because this is totally fine up until a certain point, and only as long as a doctor causes it, if someone else were to kill your fetus, well we still call that murder...even if you were on your way to the abortion clinic.

    Just be consistent.
     
  4. sakinago
    Offline

    sakinago Gold Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2012
    Messages:
    3,026
    Thanks Received:
    332
    Trophy Points:
    130
    Ratings:
    +1,245
    That scenario wouldn’t even hold up, it’s more like a person on life support, a feeding tube and ventilator, who the doctor is giving an 85% chance of making a full recovery and being a full functioning human being in a matter of months, and “pulling the plug” on that person. And then as that person continued to survive their chances would go up and up, and recovery would essentially be imenent, barring some sort of tragic rare medical complication....and everyone would say in that scenario, no it’s not ok to “pull the plug”.
     
  5. RDD_1210
    Offline

    RDD_1210 Forms his own opinions

    Joined:
    May 13, 2010
    Messages:
    16,463
    Thanks Received:
    1,519
    Trophy Points:
    205
    Ratings:
    +3,230
    An adult has been born. Is this really that tough?
     
  6. RDD_1210
    Offline

    RDD_1210 Forms his own opinions

    Joined:
    May 13, 2010
    Messages:
    16,463
    Thanks Received:
    1,519
    Trophy Points:
    205
    Ratings:
    +3,230
    I think you missed my question.
     
  7. sakinago
    Offline

    sakinago Gold Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2012
    Messages:
    3,026
    Thanks Received:
    332
    Trophy Points:
    130
    Ratings:
    +1,245
    Yea only when they are deemed brain dead, being kept alive ARTIFICIALLY with no good prognosis. And even then doctors still get it wrong. I was actually involved in a case as a nursing student like that, and the hospital got their pants sued off. Guy was supposedly a vegetable, had every hose imaginiable connected to him, and he was my only patient since he needed so much care. I even thought to myself, wow it’s selfish of the mom to put him through this. Me and a NA were giving him a spong bath, and when we turned him on his side, I found an O2 nozzle (Christmas tree) practically imbedded in his back. I pulled it out and laid him back down and said boy, I bet that feels better since we were trained to still talk to them to give them stimulatation. And at that point he looked directly at me, and almost nodded with his eyes, and the NA saw it and we both freaked out about it, which alerted the mom, who then eventually alerted lawyers. And I was deposed a couple months after that. Don’t think I’ll ever forget that, especially because it seemed like he WAS brain dead, and just staring ahed, and seeing him look me in the eye in response was just sickening, humbling, I don’t really know the right word for it.

    Anyway. Would it be ok to pull someone off of life support when the doctor says “85% chance they make a full recovery, be a healthy functionable human being, and the longer they survive the more their chances go up and up.” Would it be ok to pull the plug then?
     
  8. sakinago
    Offline

    sakinago Gold Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2012
    Messages:
    3,026
    Thanks Received:
    332
    Trophy Points:
    130
    Ratings:
    +1,245
    I mean, I don’t know why you’re asking me, unless this is out of an appeal to ignorance. There’s a whole friggen world of knowledge at your fingertips in an instant if you are writing on this site.

    But to satisfy your appeal to ignorance...a baby doesn’t just magically grow lungs once it’s outside of the womb. It’s been developing lungs the whole time. At 28 weeks the lungs are pretty much 90% developed, and the fetus does practice strengthening its breathing muscles by breathing in and out amniotic fluid, even though it’s not exchanging gases through the fluid. But the exchange of gas is still taking place, just through the mothers blood stream. The fetus is still respirating, the gasses are just being passed through the mothers blood stream, vs the capillaries in its lungs exchanging the gasses through its lungs. But 90 or whatever percent developed may not be good enough for survival of the baby, especially because it’s growing so fast. In practicing breathing in utero there is something in the amniotic fluid called surfactant, which is basically like lube for alveoli (the really thin small balloonish parts of the lungs that are thin enough for O2 and CO2 to pass in and out of the blood stream). Without surfactant, these alveoli tend to want stick together, so gas isn’t exchanging at the percentages it needs to. Or the alveoli aren’t all fully formed and are still too thick for the exchange of gasses. So to put it in different terms, this would be like me taking you (who I assume is an inexperienced mountain climber), and putting you on top of Everest, without supplemental O2, and telling you to do sprints, and then wondering why you pass out and die. It’s not that you can’t breath, your body just isn’t ready for that type of low pressure environment. This is why premies need incubators, it increases not only oxygen in the air but air pressure, to help inflate the alveoli in order to exchange gasses.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  9. RDD_1210
    Offline

    RDD_1210 Forms his own opinions

    Joined:
    May 13, 2010
    Messages:
    16,463
    Thanks Received:
    1,519
    Trophy Points:
    205
    Ratings:
    +3,230
    I actually didn't ask you. But I'll let RWNJ continue to ignore the question.
     
  10. sakinago
    Offline

    sakinago Gold Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2012
    Messages:
    3,026
    Thanks Received:
    332
    Trophy Points:
    130
    Ratings:
    +1,245
    It doesn’t really matter who answers your dumb question. It got answered.
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1

Share This Page