A Plea to Evangelicals...

[AllieBaba]

Actually, Rush didn't convince people the libs were atheists. The lib anti-Christians are just so vocal that everyone just assumed they speak for all the libs.


Fundies don't want to force anything on anyone. They simply want to be afforded the right to represent themselves, as everybody else is. To give people the opportunity to agree with them and vote for them. There's nothing wrong or bad about that. There's no reason an Evangelical can't run for office, or support a cause. People in this country have embraced the idea that Christians should remain silent when it comes to politics, and if they aren't silent, then the assumption is they're trying to "force" their views on people.

It's not true. That is simply people's prejudices and fear speaking. If Christians, by way of entering the political arena, are attempting to "force" their views on others, then so is every other politico in the world.

When it comes down to it, we all want everyone to see things our way. That's what a democracy is about. Everybody can have the opportunity to see if their ideas fly. And if the majority concurs, well, it's not suppression or tyranny that's taken place but democracy itself.

 

[CharlestonChad]

Actually, Rush didn't convince people the libs were atheists. The lib anti-Christians are just so vocal that everyone just assumed they speak for all the libs.


Fundies don't want to force anything on anyone. They simply want to be afforded the right to represent themselves, as everybody else is. To give people the opportunity to agree with them and vote for them. There's nothing wrong or bad about that. There's no reason an Evangelical can't run for office, or support a cause. People in this country have embraced the idea that Christians should remain silent when it comes to politics, and if they aren't silent, then the assumption is they're trying to "force" their views on people.

It's not true. That is simply people's prejudices and fear speaking. If Christians, by way of entering the political arena, are attempting to "force" their views on others, then so is every other politico in the world.

When it comes down to it, we all want everyone to see things our way. That's what a democracy is about. Everybody can have the opportunity to see if their ideas fly. And if the majority concurs, well, it's not suppression or tyranny that's taken place but democracy itself.

Every time I read one of your posts, I end up feeling like you tricked me out of a few IQ points.


Please learn and understand what our Constitution says and what it means. Then, and only then, should you comment in this thread.

 

[Gunny]

Fearmongering? Labeling Iraq insurgencies as terrorist is fearmongering, referencing 9/11 over and over is fearmongering, denouncing dissenters as terrorists is fearmongering. Warning that a mushroom cloud will explode in America if we do not invaded Iraq is fearmongering.

Dude, obviously the intent of the article was a bit much for you.

And DO stop trying to deflect yet another thread, huh?

 

[Alucard]

I think the above article makes a few very valid points. The hypocracy of turning the christian back against a mormon candidate makes it clear that only one version of the jebus vote is considered despite numerous denominations. Also, his point about the automatic republican nod is clearly true. Indeed, so is the point regarding jebus and torture, war, poverty etc. In fact, I agree with the premise that much of the perceived anti-christin motivation from secular america is the direct result of christian behaviour. Do I need to post the evidence of intolerant christians again?

PS,
You christians that scream about abortion crack me up considering the fact of your bible. Here, let me highlight just how much your god cares about the life of kids:

Exodus 7
1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Pay close attention to this. I will make you seem like God to Pharaoh, and your brother, Aaron, will be your prophet. 2 Tell Aaron everything I command you, and Aaron must command Pharaoh to let the people of Israel leave his country. 3 But I will make Pharaoh’s heart stubborn so I can multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in the land of Egypt. 4 Even then Pharaoh will refuse to listen to you. So I will bring down my fist on Egypt. Then I will rescue my forces—my people, the Israelites—from the land of Egypt with great acts of judgment. 5 When I raise my powerful hand and bring out the Israelites, the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord.”

Exodus 11
Death for Egypt’s Firstborn
1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “I will strike Pharaoh and the land of Egypt with one more blow. After that, Pharaoh will let you leave this country. In fact, he will be so eager to get rid of you that he will force you all to leave. 2 Tell all the Israelite men and women to ask their Egyptian neighbors for articles of silver and gold.” 3 (Now the Lord had caused the Egyptians to look favorably on the people of Israel. And Moses was considered a very great man in the land of Egypt, respected by Pharaoh’s officials and the Egyptian people alike.)

4 Moses had announced to Pharaoh, “This is what the Lord says: At midnight tonight I will pass through the heart of Egypt. 5 All the firstborn sons will die in every family in Egypt, from the oldest son of Pharaoh, who sits on his throne, to the oldest son of his lowliest servant girl who grinds the flour. Even the firstborn of all the livestock will die. 6 Then a loud wail will rise throughout the land of Egypt, a wail like no one has heard before or will ever hear again. 7 But among the Israelites it will be so peaceful that not even a dog will bark. Then you will know that the Lord makes a distinction between the Egyptians and the Israelites. 8 All the officials of Egypt will run to me and fall to the ground before me. ‘Please leave!’ they will beg. ‘Hurry! And take all your followers with you.’ Only then will I go!” Then, burning with anger, Moses left Pharaoh.

9 Now the Lord had told Moses earlier, “Pharaoh will not listen to you, but then I will do even more mighty miracles in the land of Egypt.” 10 Moses and Aaron performed these miracles in Pharaoh’s presence, but the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he wouldn’t let the Israelites leave the country.


Exodus 12
11 “These are your instructions for eating this meal: Be fully dressed,[m] wear your sandals, and carry your walking stick in your hand. Eat the meal with urgency, for this is the Lord’s Passover. 12 On that night I will pass through the land of Egypt and strike down every firstborn son and firstborn male animal in the land of Egypt. I will execute judgment against all the gods of Egypt, for I am the Lord! 13 But the blood on your doorposts will serve as a sign, marking the houses where you are staying. When I see the blood, I will pass over you. This plague of death will not touch you when I strike the land of Egypt.



Elisha's She-Bear retort to kids making fun of his bald head.

2 Kings 2:23-25

He went up from there to Bethel. As he was traveling up the road, some young boys came out of the city and made fun of him, saying, “Go on up, baldy! Go on up, baldy!” When he turned around and saw them, he called God’s judgment down on them. Two female bears came out of the woods and ripped forty-two of the boys to pieces. From there he traveled to Mount Carmel and then back to Samaria.



Indeed, preach on about what your god thinks about abortion. Notice the casual nature of the description of the death of 42 kids. Yup, you silly christians sure are consistent. Don't EVEN get me started on the RAPING of virgins found in the OT by the chosen...

Your examples are terrific examples of different wraths of God...

Only one probem... YOUR NOT GOD!...And have no right to decide the fate of innocent childrens lives... and therefore we circle back to my original and correct accusations of a lack of understanding and clear misinterpretations of the messages on your part...


Nothing personal shogun I respect your opinions on most subjects.. and I think you know thats true... but you can quote scripture out your ass and it wont add up to a hill of beans, because your distorting the context... and as you know in this forum you will get support of an equally ignorant biblicly uneducated audience... And I wont purposely place scripture in a voilent disrespectful format....Sorry

I try to keep my bible discussions among those that respect and UNDERSTAND the passeges...

 

[Gunny]

Please explain? I didn't mean to strike fear in you or other evangelicals. I found this article, and thought it was worthy of being posted since many of the Christians on this board seem to always side with the very non-christian republican party.

What's to explain? Yet another article portraying all Christians as theocrats because of the actions of a few.

I am both a conservative and a Christian and will not vote for Huckabee based on his wanting to legislate his own brand of Christian morality.

 

[jillian]

What's to explain? Yet another article portraying all Christians as theocrats because of the actions of a few.

I am both a conservative and a Christian and will not vote for Huckabee based on his wanting to legislate his own brand of Christian morality.

I don't think anyone's saying all Christians are theocrats. I think it's the nature of evangelical Christianity and it's efforts to theocratize this country to which people take exception.

 

[Gunny]

I don't think anyone's saying all Christians are theocrats. I think it's the nature of evangelical Christianity and it's efforts to theocratize this country to which people take exception.

The efforts of evangelical Christianity are blown WAY out of proportion to any real power or influence they might have or we'd already be a theocracy.

Huckabee's getting some support, but he's not going to carry any election even if he gets the nomination. Too many moderates will either vote Dem or just stay home.

That being said, they don't want things their way anymore than anyone else does.

 

[jillian]

The efforts of evangelical Christianity are blown WAY out of proportion to any real power or influence they might have or we'd already be a theocracy.

I don't know, they seem to have made the president the past couple of times around. I'd say that's pretty powerful.

Huckabee's getting some support, but he's not going to carry any election even if he gets the nomination. Too many moderates will either vote Dem or just stay home.

That being said, they don't want things their way anymore than anyone else does.

Might be so, but their way is unconstitutional (eg, demanding a religous test of a president... see trashing of Mitt Romney by Huckabee), hence a bit more offensive than most. Also their way steps on *my* rights.

 

[Gunny]

I don't know, they seem to have made the president the past couple of times around. I'd say that's pretty powerful.

Being on the winner's coattails and riding the winning train is not the same thing as "making" a winner.

The fact that the Democrats had nothing to offer that was better made the president the past couple of times around. If the GOP wins this tis time, it'll be for the same reason.

Might be so, but their way is unconstitutional (eg, demanding a religous test of a president... see trashing of Mitt Romney by Huckabee), hence a bit more offensive than most. Also their way steps on *my* rights.

It isn't any more unconstitutional than any other minority's special little tests that cater solely to their respective causes.

It surely isn't any more unconstitutional than the test given by those who will immediately disqualify for someone's religion.

What's the difference between you doing that to Huckabee for his beliefs and Christians doing it to Romney for his?

 

[jillian]

Being on the winner's coattails and riding the winning train is not the same thing as "making" a winner.

The fact that the Democrats had nothing to offer that was better made the president the past couple of times around. If the GOP wins this tis time, it'll be for the same reason.



It isn't any more unconstitutional than any other minority's special little tests that cater solely to their respective causes.

It surely isn't any more unconstitutional than the test given by those who will immediately disqualify for someone's religion.

What's the difference between you doing that to Huckabee for his beliefs and Christians doing it to Romney for his?

I think it's disgusting that people did it to Romney. Absolutely disgusting. And I think Huckabee was the worst purveyor of that type of garbage.

But if you're asking,there's a big difference between excluding someone for their beliefs and excluding someone because they want to impose their religious beliefs on us which is against the separation of church and state. Everything this guy believes on this subject would stand the constitution on its head.

 

[Shogun]

Your examples are terrific examples of different wraths of God...

Only one probem... YOUR NOT GOD!...And have no right to decide the fate of innocent childrens lives... and therefore we circle back to my original and correct accusations of a lack of understanding and clear misinterpretations of the messages on your part...

Nothing personal shogun I respect your opinions on most subjects.. and I think you know thats true... but you can quote scripture out your ass and it wont add up to a hill of beans, because your distorting the context... and as you know in this forum you will get support of an equally ignorant biblicly uneducated audience... And I wont purposely place scripture in a voilent disrespectful format....Sorry

I try to keep my bible discussions among those that respect and UNDERSTAND the passeges...

So, it's OK when your phantom ghost in the sky GOD decides to kill babies with Bears, angels of death and marauding raping jews but it's NOT ok when a human decides on the exact same thing to a fetus? Gotcha!


Indeed, you make it clear why we hate on muslim fundies who rationalize their own violent holy book too!


If your "correct" interpretation hinges on "you are not god" then YOU are not so much condemning the death of babies as much as allowing your dogma a double standard to commit the same killing of innocent kids. So, regardless of you YOU want to rationalize what YOUR god does to kill babies the CORRECT interpretation is taken from reading the scripture. Not looking for some dogma excuse for your brutal, barbaric bloody god. Hell, why don't you go ahead and make your punchline funnier by talking shit on the muslim religion who, ALSO, seems as capable of you in rationalizing the violence of their holy book. You christians make me laugh every time you point your finger and insist it's always someone else who can't read the fucking verses READILY posted.

Hey, maybe you should cry some more about secularism and the stark rebuking of christian dogma while making another excuse for bald old jewish heroes defending the word of god from *GASP* CHILDREN by slaughtering them with bears.

Indeed, it's not personal when I retort that twisting scripture around your religion is exactly what every denomination does in order to feel "CORRECT". I can give you three examples of your god not giving a damn about the lives of kids in the OT and, instead of admitting that yes god did kill babies, you try to pass that the same actions are OK for YOUR god in classic "do as I say, not as I do" form. Are there any other sins that God is allowed? Maybe some post-poker strip bar clubbin with the arch angels? It's not like god is going to get aids from banging a hooker, eh? Face it, you ALLIEGENCE to a club prompts an excuse for the very words found in your bible. A very LAME ASS excuse, by the way. Abdul the suicidal muslim terrorist probably has a lot of respect for the same type of logic.


Trust me, dude. I understand the passages. Acting like you are part of some club that "understands the bible better than others" is no unique routine. If you want to address the context of each of my examples then let's party. I'm confident in MY interpretation and am willing to take this thread to 30 pages proving it. I assure you, you'll give up before proving me wrong.


ps.. you'll have to set your bar a little higher than "derrr, duhh, YOU don't know how to interpret it". There is NO other way to interpret Elisha's she-bears. There is NO other way to interpret the DEATH caused by a jewish god against innocent Egyptians for the sake of making Moses seem heroic. The same god who supposedly created the earth in 7 days should have been powerful enough to make his people free WITHOUT using an ENTIRE FIRST BORN GENERATION as cannon fodder. I don't care if that chaffes your automatic reverance of jebus. It's whats in YOUR bible, not mine. If you can't fathom how outmoded such excuses are for "wrathful, angry, jealous gods" then prepare to be bitch slapped with the very words of your won holy text. Fair warning.



I get the feeling that by "among those that respect and UNDERSTAND the passeges" you really mean "Among those who already fawn over the jebus myth and accept anything in the bible in unblinking devotion no matter how much horror and death is perpetrated my my particular choice of ghost in the sky". I assure you, such speedy gonzolas backstepping was no more impressive when I was kicking bible major ass in college than it is today.




I do think it's really cool that you are going to try some Mo bbq sauce though so I'll give you one sleeper hold tap out if you choose to defend your faith outside of pretending that you alone have the capacity to understand the bible.

 

[AllieBaba]

We aren't to judge God, Shogun. He judges us.

This is the problem many unbelievers have with God. They believe he's cruel. When the fact of the matter is, he's righteous. He can't be righteous without exacting judgment. And judgment sometimes takes the form of death. Deserved or undeserved by the people who he visits it upon.

The key is, God is not terribly concerned with our physical bodies. Our physical bodies are as a stinking rag to him, and they are, at best, a temporary shelter for our souls. He is primarily interested in our souls, which will last forever, provided we have faith. To those of us consumed with the here and now, who don't believe in a hereafter or God, this is a bitter pill to swallow, and it is taken as evidence that if there is a God he doesn't love us, because he allows us or causes us to suffer.

But generally speaking, through suffering, we shine. This is why a believer never asks God to teach them things like patience, acceptace, etc. Because how do you learn those things? You learn them through suffering.

So yes, God allows us to be hurt, maimed and killed. He suffers the deaths of children. It is the process he has chosen for mankind has to go through to ultimately join him.

 

[Paulie]

This is the problem many unbelievers have with God. They believe he's cruel.

Um, no, we just don't believe PERIOD. Hence the term you used, "unbelievers".

When the fact of the matter is, he's righteous. He can't be righteous without exacting judgment. And judgment sometimes takes the form of death. Deserved or undeserved by the people who he visits it upon.

The key is, God is not terribly concerned with our physical bodies. Our physical bodies are as a stinking rag to him, and they are, at best, a temporary shelter for our souls. He is primarily interested in our souls, which will last forever, provided we have faith. To those of us consumed with the here and now, who don't believe in a hereafter or God, this is a bitter pill to swallow, and it is taken as evidence that if there is a God he doesn't love us, because he allows us or causes us to suffer.

But generally speaking, through suffering, we shine. This is why a believer never asks God to teach them things like patience, acceptace, etc. Because how do you learn those things? You learn them through suffering.

So yes, God allows us to be hurt, maimed and killed. He suffers the deaths of children. It is the process he has chosen for mankind has to go through to ultimately join him.

Yada yada yada. Go cast your Huckabee vote.

 

[AllieBaba]

You speak for all unbelievers? Or do you just think you're the only one worth referring to?

And I'm not voting for Huckabee, you bigoted twit.

 

[Paulie]

You speak for all unbelievers? Or do you just think you're the only one worth referring to?

No, I'm speaking for common sense. If you're an "unbeliever" of god, then how could you have any beliefs about god that infer it's existence?

And I'm not voting for Huckabee, you bigoted twit.

Bigoted. You base that on what, exactly?

 

[AllieBaba]

Don't you know what a bigot is? It's somebody who assigns unflattering and negative characteristics to people based upon nothing but their own bias.

My comment about non believers was ambiguous. But non believers are by and large ambiguous themselves. They state they simply don't believe..but it is obvious many of them at the same time have a huge animosity towards a God they state doesn't exist. Do with it what you will.

 

[Shogun]

We aren't to judge God, Shogun. He judges us.

That certainly is your christian opinion. What makes me guess that you don't hold the same standard for the koran and its god? Ironically, the same damn entity that you pray to. Do you reserve your criticism of a violent Koran? If not then why is it acceptable to hold your bible to a different standard than the koran? Should I fall to my knees in prayer now?


This is the problem many unbelievers have with God. They believe he's cruel. When the fact of the matter is, he's righteous. He can't be righteous without exacting judgment. And judgment sometimes takes the form of death. Deserved or undeserved by the people who he visits it upon.

No, I don't believe him cruel.. I believe him a product of both imagination, ignorance and the traditional prerogative of the very ethnicity that awarded itself chosen status. If you can criticize the Koran then I can apply the same to your bible. Your dogma doesnt' erase the fact of scripture and the plot of the OT. A god that can kill an entire generation of egyptians for the sake of his supposed chosen is no more righteous than he is tangible. If you can stomach rape, killing kids with a fucking bear for calling someone bald, the terrorism and conquering of Canaan and the entire moses-pharoa dialog (when an all powerful god who created the earth COULD have just snapped a finger to free the jews) then maybe you shouldn't point any more fingers at mulsims, eh?

The key is, God is not terribly concerned with our physical bodies. Our physical bodies are as a stinking rag to him, and they are, at best, a temporary shelter for our souls. He is primarily interested in our souls, which will last forever, provided we have faith. To those of us consumed with the here and now, who don't believe in a hereafter or God, this is a bitter pill to swallow, and it is taken as evidence that if there is a God he doesn't love us, because he allows us or causes us to suffer.

MEEEEP wrong answer.


1 Corinthians 6:18-20
18Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.


Why do you people do this when it is so easy to prove otherwise? I won't bother to address your opinion of we godless heathens since you clearly have a fragile grasp on your own dogma.





But generally speaking, through suffering, we shine. This is why a believer never asks God to teach them things like patience, acceptace, etc. Because how do you learn those things? You learn them through suffering.


HA!

Yea, I bet thats what Ted Haggert said while asking the gay prostitue to burn him with the crackpipe! Indeed, you christians suffer SO WELL without screaming lionfood martyr at every stubbed toe.



So yes, God allows us to be hurt, maimed and killed. He suffers the deaths of children. It is the process he has chosen for mankind has to go through to ultimately join him.

Well, unless you were the first born in Egypt circa exodus.. or kids making fun of balk prophets... or rapable virgins from the enemy of rampaging jews... or the entire population of Canaan.

 

[Shogun]

Don't you know what a bigot is? It's somebody who assigns unflattering and negative characteristics to people based upon nothing but their own bias.

My comment about non believers was ambiguous. But non believers are by and large ambiguous themselves. They state they simply don't believe..but it is obvious many of them at the same time have a huge animosity towards a God they state doesn't exist. Do with it what you will.

my animosity isnt towards your ghost in the sky. My animosity is aimed at zealots who are only one trampled constitution away from being exactly what they claim to hate about muslim cultures. I almost choked at your definiton of bigot, Allie. I wonder if that definition is broadly applicable.

 

[AllieBaba]

Oh please.

What I said about the body was in relative terms. Yes, it houses our souls while we are here on earth and we are expected to take care of it. But ultimately, God is concerned with our souls, not our bodies.

I don't expect to convert you, and without faith (or common sense) you cannot see the problems with the Koran. Mohammed was not a prophet, and the Koran is not holy. But if you deny God, you deny God. You'll believe whatever you want. I was simply trying to explain to you the way Christians see it. I was not trying to prove anything to you.

 

[Shogun]

Oh please.

What I said about the body was in relative terms. Yes, it houses our souls while we are here on earth and we are expected to take care of it. But ultimately, God is concerned with our souls, not our bodies.

I don't expect to convert you, and without faith (or common sense) you cannot see the problems with the Koran. Mohammed was not a prophet, and the Koran is not holy. But if you deny God, you deny God. You'll believe whatever you want. I was simply trying to explain to you the way Christians see it. I was not trying to prove anything to you.

RELATIVE TERMS??

HAHAHAHA!

oh come ON, Allie. There is NO relative terms in "Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End, The way the truth and the light", eh? Relative terms my ass. It must really chaffe when a person of my non-belief whips out the bible verses.

Indeed, without an unbiases connection with the bible YOU won't see the problems with the OT. Jesus was not a prophet and the bible is a collection of books WRITTEN BY MEN that was put together BY MEN and added to and subtracted from BY MEN and finally compiles into english BY A MAN NAMED KING JAMES. Trust me, I'll continue believing what I do because your offer no more substance than praying to JRR Tolkien. I'm very aware of how christians see it. Hypocrisy and Denial permeates.


You really need to stop letting an athiest like me school you on the bible, Allie. I mean, I luvya and all but your spiritual armor is constructed of pudding.