Zionism and Nazism: is there a difference that makes a difference?

[Marc39]

The continuity of the Palestinian roots in the land in fact goes back to antiquity.

Well, no. Open a history book.

Arabs first inhabited "Palestine" in the 7th century AD, long after ancient times.

Jews inhabited "Palestine" in antiquity dating back to 1300 BCE, twice, in fact, as the First and Second Temples.

Now, you know.

 

[Marc39]

Al Hambra cinima, Jaffa, 1937, flying Palestinian flag.

Problem is, Arabs didn't recognize Palestine or Palestinians until 1967. The land was southern Syria. Arabs opposed the British calling southern Syria Palestine for fear it was a Western device.

Thus, your flag is bogus

Middle East historian Bernard Lewis...

For Arabs, the term Palestine was unacceptable. For Muslims it was alien and irrelevant. The main objection for them was that it seemed to assert a separate entity which politically conscious Arabs in Palestine and elsewhere denied. For them there was no such thing as a country called Palestine. The region which the British called Palestine was merely a separated part of a larger whole [Syria]. For a long time organized and articulate Arab political opinion was virtually unanimous on this point.

The Palestinian Arabs' basic sense of corporate historic identity was, at different levels, Muslim or Arab or -- for some -- Syrian; it is significant that even by the end of the Mandate in 1948, after 30 years of separate Palestinian political existence, there were virtually no books in Arabic on the history of Palestine.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Middle-East-Bernard-Lewis/dp/0684832801/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1288529772&sr=8-5]Amazon.com: The Middle East (9780684832807): Bernard Lewis: Books: Reviews, Prices & more[/ame]

 

[P F Tinmore]

The continuity of the Palestinian roots in the land in fact goes back to antiquity.

Well, no. Open a history book.

Arabs first inhabited "Palestine" in the 7th century AD, long after ancient times.

Jews inhabited "Palestine" in antiquity dating back to 1300 BCE, twice, in fact, as the First and Second Temples.

Now, you know.

Are Palestinians really all Arabs?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Al Hambra cinima, Jaffa, 1937, flying Palestinian flag.

Problem is, Arabs didn't recognize Palestine or Palestinians until 1967. The land was southern Syria. Arabs opposed the British calling southern Syria Palestine for fear it was a Western device.

Thus, your flag is bogus

Middle East historian Bernard Lewis...

For Arabs, the term Palestine was unacceptable. For Muslims it was alien and irrelevant. The main objection for them was that it seemed to assert a separate entity which politically conscious Arabs in Palestine and elsewhere denied. For them there was no such thing as a country called Palestine. The region which the British called Palestine was merely a separated part of a larger whole [Syria]. For a long time organized and articulate Arab political opinion was virtually unanimous on this point.

The Palestinian Arabs' basic sense of corporate historic identity was, at different levels, Muslim or Arab or -- for some -- Syrian; it is significant that even by the end of the Mandate in 1948, after 30 years of separate Palestinian political existence, there were virtually no books in Arabic on the history of Palestine.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Middle-East-Bernard-Lewis/dp/0684832801/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1288529772&sr=8-5]Amazon.com: The Middle East (9780684832807): Bernard Lewis: Books: Reviews, Prices & more[/ame]

So who was flying that flag? The Jews?

 

[Marc39]

The continuity of the Palestinian roots in the land in fact goes back to antiquity.

Well, no. Open a history book.

Arabs first inhabited "Palestine" in the 7th century AD, long after ancient times.

Jews inhabited "Palestine" in antiquity dating back to 1300 BCE, twice, in fact, as the First and Second Temples.

Now, you know.

Are Palestinians really all Arabs?

Pallies are all Arabs, though, they generally identify by religion, mostly Muslim.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Well, no. Open a history book.

Arabs first inhabited "Palestine" in the 7th century AD, long after ancient times.

Jews inhabited "Palestine" in antiquity dating back to 1300 BCE, twice, in fact, as the First and Second Temples.

Now, you know.

Are Palestinians really all Arabs?

Pallies are all Arabs, though, they generally identify by religion, mostly Muslim.

Some Palestinians are blond with blue eyes. Others are black with kinky hair. There is a wide variety of colors and facial features in between.

One would think that a specific race would be more homogeneous.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Well, no. Open a history book.

Arabs first inhabited "Palestine" in the 7th century AD, long after ancient times.

Jews inhabited "Palestine" in antiquity dating back to 1300 BCE, twice, in fact, as the First and Second Temples.

Now, you know.

Are Palestinians really all Arabs?

Pallies are all Arabs, though, they generally identify by religion, mostly Muslim.

Palestinians consist of Muslims, Christians, and Jews.

 

[Marc39]

Are Palestinians really all Arabs?

Pallies are all Arabs, though, they generally identify by religion, mostly Muslim.

Palestinians consist of Muslims, Christians, and Jews.

99% of Pallies are Muslim. Jews stopped calling themselves Palestinians with Israeli statehood back in 1948.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Pallies are all Arabs, though, they generally identify by religion, mostly Muslim.

Palestinians consist of Muslims, Christians, and Jews.

99% of Pallies are Muslim. Jews stopped calling themselves Palestinians with Israeli statehood back in 1948.

Some did - some didn't.

 

[Marc39]

Palestinians consist of Muslims, Christians, and Jews.

99% of Pallies are Muslim. Jews stopped calling themselves Palestinians with Israeli statehood back in 1948.

Some did - some didn't.

Er, no. Palestine ceased to exist with Israeli statehood. Israelis are Israelis, not Palestinians. Now, you know.

Middle East historian Bernard Lewis...

The Palestine entity, formally established and defined by Britain, was formally abolished in 1948 with the termination of the Mandate.

 

[georgephillip]

That was settled when Israel's Arab neighbors attacked Israel and were thrashed. The land is Israel's now.

And if you believe it isn't, you need to give your house to a native American. Or you can continue being a hypocrite. Your call.

daveman:

Between the time the UN appointed committee, UNSCOP, recommended its "two state solution" in late 1947

In 1922, the League of Nations established Palestine as the Jewish homeland, which became international law with unanimous ratification of the Palestine Mandate.

Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country

The Avalon Project : The Palestine Mandate


Your history lesson for the day

Your Logic lesson of the day:

If the League of Nations gave the Jews all of Palestine in 1922, why did the Zionists accept only 55% of Palestine from the UN in 1948?

 

[Marc39]

daveman:

Between the time the UN appointed committee, UNSCOP, recommended its "two state solution" in late 1947

In 1922, the League of Nations established Palestine as the Jewish homeland, which became international law with unanimous ratification of the Palestine Mandate.

Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country

The Avalon Project : The Palestine Mandate


Your history lesson for the day

Your Logic lesson of the day:

If the League of Nations gave the Jews all of Palestine in 1922, why did the Zionists accept only 55% of Palestine from the UN in 1948?

Because, Jews are reasonable, unlike Arab barbarians.

 

[georgephillip]

Those "rightful owners" have never had any land to own, much less to claim it back.

So are you saying that the land the zionist took was not populated by anyone? And that no one owned any land there? Ever?

Didn't Muslims take the Middle East and north Africa, populated by Jews, Christians and, Zoroastrians?

Yah, they did.

Didn't Muslims take Afghanistan that was populated by the Buddhists?

Yah, they did.

Didn't Muslims take Spain, Portugal, Italy and much of Europe and Asia populated by non-Muslims?

Yah, they did.

Jews have lived in "Palestine" for over 3000 years, 2000 years before Arabs invaded.

In fact, Jews have ruled in "Palestine" for over 400 years. Arab rule in "Palestine" amounted to less than 100 years under Umayyad rule.

Zionists took no land that was not Jewish land from the very beginning.

"Each year, the U.S. Army War College in Carlysle Barracks, Pennsylvania, invites foreign military personnel to partake in war games scenarios and seek solutions to problems and potential problems around the globe.

"Saudi Arabia’s Lieutenant Colonel Mohammed F. Abo-Sak participated in the USAWC Class of 1997 where he developed a strategy research project he entitled 'US Involvement in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: Solution or Complication?'"

"Palestinians have continuously resided in Palestine since four thousand years before Christ, Abo-Sak pointed out. Their ancestors built the cities of Jerusalem, Nablus, Jericho, Beisan, Acca and Jaffa.

"The Hebrews arrived in the land between 1400-1200 B.C., and only maintained control over it during the lifetimes of King David and his son King Solomon – a period of about 80 years.

"The land then came under Greek and Roman rule, and was then conquered by Islam in the year 637 A.D. under the second Caliph, Omar.

"By that time, the Jews had already left Jerusalem, and Christianity was the dominant religion.

"The Caliph granted full security to all Christians, including personal safety, and protection of property, religion and churches.

"The Muslims declared Jerusalem the capital of Palestine, and the city remained under Islamic rule until the end of the Ottoman Empire in 1918, except for a brief time of Christian rule under the Crusaders."

Let's see...Muslim conquest 637 CE.
End of Ottoman Empire 1918 CE.
1281 years of Muslim rule in Palestine?

US Involvement in...

 

[Marc39]

"Palestinians have continuously resided in Palestine since four thousand years before Christ

Complete fiction.

Jews are the original Palestinians given the Romans renamed Judea, the correct historical geographical name of the land, "Palestine" 500 years before Arabs lived there.

The common consensus of opinion among historians and archaeologists is Pallies originated from the Arabian Peninsula and most are descended from Arabs who invaded "Palestine" in the 7th century.

There is no reference to Palestine or Palestinians in the Quran, the Hebrew Bible or the Christian Bible.

There is no reference to Palestine or Palestinians in any ancient historical documents.

The Quran references Jews, not Palestinians, as the owners of the Holy Land.

Quran 5:20-21...

Remember Moses said to his people: 'O my people! Recall in remembrance the favor of Allah unto you, when He produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave you what He had not given to any other among the peoples. O my people! Enter the holy land which Allah hath assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin.

 

[georgephillip]

Didn't Muslims take the Middle East and north Africa, populated by Jews, Christians and, Zoroastrians?

Yah, they did.

Didn't Muslims take Afghanistan that was populated by the Buddhists?

Yah, they did.

Didn't Muslims take Spain, Portugal, Italy and much of Europe and Asia populated by non-Muslims?

Yah, they did.

Jews have lived in "Palestine" for over 3000 years, 2000 years before Arabs invaded.

In fact, Jews have ruled in "Palestine" for over 400 years. Arab rule in "Palestine" amounted to less than 100 years under Umayyad rule.

Zionists took no land that was not Jewish land from the very beginning.

Yes, zionists took land that they think belonged to them in the first place 3000 years ago (that's comical, but I get it). But what I'm saying is: did the zionists come in and buy up all the land, or take it by force. So at the very very least, Israel would owe money to the people whose land was taken/expropriated/stolen. Some of these refugees want to come back to their lands that they actually lived on, not that their ancestors had 3000 years ago. Doesn't that count for anything? the rights of people 3000 years ago supercede those who are alive today? That concept is a little hard to defend imo.

Continual historical Jewish ownership of land is comical? I see. Let's tell Saudi Arabia that Muslim ownership of Mecca and Medina is irrelevant and let's open it to non-Muslims.

The fact is Jews took nothing by force. The Ottoman Turks who owned "Palestine," not the Arabs, permitted Jewish immigration and international law created by the world community established "Palestine" as the Jewish homeland.

1.5 million Arabs live in Israel. If Israel had wanted to force them out, they would have done so.

"The fact is Jews took nothing by force."

"The 1948 Palestinian exodus (Arabic: الهجرة الفلسطينية‎, al-Hijra al-Filasṭīnīya), also known as Nakba (Arabic: النكبة‎, an-Nakbah), meaning the 'disaster', 'catastrophe', or 'cataclysm',[1] occurred when approximately 725,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled from their homes, during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War and the Civil War that preceded it.[2] The term 'Nakba' was first used in this way by Syrian historian Constantine Zureiq in his 1948 book, Ma'na al-Nakba (The Meaning of the Disaster).[3]

"According to Ilan Pappe, the term Nakba was adopted "as an attempt to counter the moral weight of the Jewish Holocaust (Shoa)".[4]

"Nur-eldeen Masalha writes that over 80 percent of the Arab inhabitants of the area that became Israel left their towns and villages.[5]

"Jewish advances, such as that on Haifa, fears of a massacre after Deir Yassin,[6] and a collapse in Palestinian leadership caused many to leave out of panic.

"A series of laws passed by the first Israeli government prevented them from returning to their homes, or claiming their property.

"They and many of their descendants remain refugees."

Creating a Jewish Homeland in 1948 Palestine with 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews would have been impossible without force underwritten by western colonial powers.

A fact "Princeton" Marc continues to profit from.

1948 Palestinian exodus - wiki

 

[Marc39]

"The Hebrews arrived in the land between 1400-1200 B.C., and only maintained control over it during the lifetimes of King David and his son King Solomon – a period of about 80 yearsB].

Wrong.

Jews ruled over Judea for over 400 years under the First Temple, established 1000 BCE, until the Babylonian destruction of the Temple in 586 BCE.

Arab rule of Judea lasted less than 100 years under the Umayyads, from 661 AD to 750 AD.

Your history lesson for the day.

 

[georgephillip]

Didn't Muslims take the Middle East and north Africa, populated by Jews, Christians and, Zoroastrians?

Yah, they did.

Didn't Muslims take Afghanistan that was populated by the Buddhists?

Yah, they did.

Didn't Muslims take Spain, Portugal, Italy and much of Europe and Asia populated by non-Muslims?

Yah, they did.

Jews have lived in "Palestine" for over 3000 years, 2000 years before Arabs invaded.

In fact, Jews have ruled in "Palestine" for over 400 years. Arab rule in "Palestine" amounted to less than 100 years under Umayyad rule.

Zionists took no land that was not Jewish land from the very beginning.

Some of these refugees want to come back to their lands that they actually lived on

Er, there are no "Palestinian" refugees. The actual refugees of the '48 war are dead, for the most part. Their descendants are not refugees. Refugee status is not inherited.

My grandfather was a refugee from Poland before emigrating to the US. Can I claim refugee status and request UN payments? LOL, I don't think so.

"“Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own and return, to his country.”

- Universal Declaration on Human Rights, Article 13

"Israel’s military occupation of Gaza and the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) is the most persistent military occupation on earth. But this 35-year-old occupation is only the second stage in the colonization of the land of Canaan.

"The first stage, between 1947-1949, generated the largest population of refugees still unsettled since World War Two, with the longest displacement in modern history.

"Until recently, two competing accounts of this catastrophic event existed. The first version, advocated by Israeli leaders, holds that the native Palestinians left present day Israel of their own free will or through the encouragement of their leaders. This version even indicates that Israeli leaders desired the Palestinian people to stay within Israel’s borders."

"The second version, reported by the Palestinian refugees themselves, is that they were ethnically cleansed before, during and after the 1948 war.

"In their lexicon, the expulsion became known as Al-Naqba (the Catastrophe) and is the most traumatic event in Palestinian recorded history.

"More recently, Israeli historians, such as Ilan Pappé, Benny Morris, Zeev Sternhall, Avi Shlaim, Simha Flapan, and Tom Segev, have debunked the established Israeli myths of Israel’s creation. Using Israeli archives and declassified material, they were able to discover much of the hidden history of Zionism and they reveal a factual account of the establishment of Israel.

Palestinian Refugees Right...

 

[Marc39]

Yes, zionists took land that they think belonged to them in the first place 3000 years ago (that's comical, but I get it). But what I'm saying is: did the zionists come in and buy up all the land, or take it by force. So at the very very least, Israel would owe money to the people whose land was taken/expropriated/stolen. Some of these refugees want to come back to their lands that they actually lived on, not that their ancestors had 3000 years ago. Doesn't that count for anything? the rights of people 3000 years ago supercede those who are alive today? That concept is a little hard to defend imo.

Continual historical Jewish ownership of land is comical? I see. Let's tell Saudi Arabia that Muslim ownership of Mecca and Medina is irrelevant and let's open it to non-Muslims.

The fact is Jews took nothing by force. The Ottoman Turks who owned "Palestine," not the Arabs, permitted Jewish immigration and international law created by the world community established "Palestine" as the Jewish homeland.

1.5 million Arabs live in Israel. If Israel had wanted to force them out, they would have done so.

"The fact is Jews took nothing by force."

"The 1948 Palestinian exodus (Arabic: الهجرة الفلسطينية‎, al-Hijra al-Filasṭīnīya), also known as Nakba (Arabic: النكبة‎, an-Nakbah), meaning the 'disaster', 'catastrophe', or 'cataclysm',[1] occurred when approximately 725,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled from their homes, during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War and the Civil War that preceded it.[2] The term 'Nakba' was first used in this way by Syrian historian Constantine Zureiq in his 1948 book, Ma'na al-Nakba (The Meaning of the Disaster).[3]

"According to Ilan Pappe, the term Nakba was adopted "as an attempt to counter the moral weight of the Jewish Holocaust (Shoa)"

Ilan Pappe is not a proper historian. Pappe admits to being biased and fabricating history.

Thus, your information is BOGUS. And, you are severely uneducated.

Ilan Pappe...

I admit that my ideology influences my historical writings

I am not as interested in what happened as in how people see what's happened

Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts. Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truthseekers

http://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~censor/katz-directory/$99-11-29loos-pappe-interview.htm

 

[docmauser1]

There is a lot said about the Palestinians selling their land to Jews, but by 1947 the Jews only owned about 7% of Palestine.

Yeah, and arabs "owned the rest". Been there, heard that drivel. British land regulations officially prohibited, or severely limited jovish land purchases. But the real trick is that, all the land, that wasn't purchased and registered in jooze's name in any way, including government lands, had been categorized as non-jovish, like the funniest UN Beersheeba example, where 99% of the land had been government land, but had been classified as non-jovish. Which means 99% non-arab, too. Incredibly funny.

 

[Marc39]

Some of these refugees want to come back to their lands that they actually lived on

Er, there are no "Palestinian" refugees. The actual refugees of the '48 war are dead, for the most part. Their descendants are not refugees. Refugee status is not inherited.

My grandfather was a refugee from Poland before emigrating to the US. Can I claim refugee status and request UN payments? LOL, I don't think so.

"“Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own and return, to his country.”

- Universal Declaration on Human Rights, Article 13

"Israel’s military occupation of Gaza and the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) is the most persistent military occupation on earth. But this 35-year-old occupation is only the second stage in the colonization of the land of Canaan.

Factually incorrect. Neither Gaza nor the West Bank are sovereign Arab states and, thus, cannot be occupied.

Gaza and the West Bank are unallocated sovereign Israeli land under the terms of the binding Palestine Mandate establishing Palestine as the Jewish homeland.

League of Nations' Palestine Mandate...

Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country