Would you support renewable no matter what the climate does?

[westwall]

Oddball -

The turbines are manufactured by a privately owned company.

Whether they have ever received any seed capital or taxpayer investment from the UK government I have no idea - but if they did, I would think it has been money well spent, wouldn't you?

Who suggested Calgary use tidal power?

Nobody.

A privately owned company and that Division of it exists purely thanks to the largesse of the taxpayers of those countries. My gosh you're ignorant.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Invest your own money, you cheapskate.

Notice that odd-dude is too dumb and too dishonest to quote my comment and offer anything of substance. Not that such behavior on his part would surprise anyone.

Note that those who thanked him for his post are equally dumb and also incapable of responding with anything of substance.

 

[polarbear]

Todd -

Maybe the investments came too late - you were already so far behind countries likes Scotland, Germany and Korea when it comes to renewables it isn't easy to catch up now.

Investments always involve risk - they weren't all work, but that doesn't mean investment isn't the right thing to do as a concept. It just needs to be made as safely as possible.

Actually Americans are not "behind" Germany & some of the other E.U. countries that have gone down this road and now reached the point of no return. Because the U.S. national debt would be way higher than it is at the present. Before You hit me over the head with national debt data bear in mind that the only reason why it does not show as much as it would in the U.S. is that the German Government, especially Frau Merkel has found a way to raise taxes at will, no matter how people vote. All that stuff You see in Germany was implemented because minority & fringe parties can form coalition Governments that nobody wants and over rule the public. And that`s exactly how the "Greens" the "Social Democratic Party" did it. They formed coalitions with whoever had a leg up on power and pushed their agenda. Do You think that anyone in their right mind would ever vote for Obama again if he just signed an executive order to raise hydro electric (rate) taxes by 47 %...? I think not...but if You had more than just 2 parties, say "Greens" neo-communists etc he could say the hell with the American voters, form a coalition Government and keep on going.
After reading Your views on wind and solar I think it`s necessary to go into the technical details to explain why it`s not as simple as many think it is, including politicians who should have been (and have been) advised before they committed huge sums to these projects.
The best way would be if people like You for example ask the engineers of a conventional power (on demand) plant to give You a tour through the control room and where the main HV switches are.
It`s not as simple as most people think. For example in a typical hydro electric plant You may at any time have 1/2 of the turbines driving their generators taking care of the instantaneous load at any given time...while some the other turbines are on standby. Some of them are in a "ready state" spinning at EXACTLY the same revs as the ones that carry the current load. So if there is a sudden demand spike sometimes this can be handled simply by modulating the turbine wicket gates on the loaded turbines to increase torque while maintaining rpm at EXACTLY the same and simultaneously increasing the exciter-coil current.
If the demand spike is in excess as what the turbine gen-set can handle then the control system trips the armed high speed HV switches to fire at exactly the right time (in milliseconds) when the additional gen-set is at EXACTLY the precise same phase angle as all the other turbine gen-sets.
That has to be synchronized EXACTLY with how much power is fed at this instant into the generator exciter coils. Else this turbine does not boost the overall power but is a load which added to the demand spike and the entire power plant could "brown out" or even blow up like this one :

2009 Sayano-Shushenskaya power station accident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


So please do tell us how You would phase in more Wind turbines say from Texas with split second precision if the ones in Oklahoma can`t handle the sudden demand spike when a few industrial users just happen to switch big loads on or off at the same time..Sure the blade pitch control system in these wind turbine can get the Texas turbines spinning at the same rpm even though the wind speed is different from Oklahoma...but...:
at lower wind speed the system will set a different angle of attack for the blades. At "fine pitch" You get the speed but less torque, power = torque x speed and You can`t increase the wind speed in Texas that`s for sure..
So if You fire the HV switches to phase in the Texas wind mill farm into the one in Oklahoma You will turn the entire Texas wind mill farm in an instant into a huge additional load shutting down the entire power grid....and as You know that already did happen a few years ago.
Picture it like this :
You can have the wheels of Your car spinning at X rpms to get You to 60 mph in 5th gear at 1/2 power...but it`s not going to keep doing that when You get to a hill...Now imagine a freight train with 3 or 4 engines going uphill and one engineer runs his engine like that car in 5th gear...he would stall the entire train..
Almost every power engineer in Europe ( and the U.S) has pointed out these facts but was rail roaded by by the political spin doctors and politicians went ahead and committed trillions to an energy system that nobody can control...the only way You can control it is the way they are now doing it in Germany with these huge water basins on the hilltops.
So, what do You prefer? Let them mine the coal in the Appalachians and build "scrubbed" coal fired power plants (like we do in "right wing" Canada ) or destroy the entire region by decapitating these beautiful mountains ...:



and build these basins and tunnels like they now HAVE to in Germany which is past the point of no return...but of whom You said in effect, that "they are way ahead of the US"

 

[there4eyeM]

Bio-fuel is not an alternative.

 

[ScienceRocks]

50 GW of electricy is wind. I believe in the free market and believe without the government that will keep growing. Slower, but will grow.

 

[flacaltenn]

Since when are the Green EcoFrauds DEMANDING we install Marine Cuisinarts in the middle of huge ecosystems with tremendous currents????

DOES THAT LOOK ECO-FRIENDLY TO YOU????

Think I could a get permit to install one of those chopping devices in the AnWar? I'm sure SpongeBob and the Little Mermaid would rather take their chances with one of those deadly "red-tinged" drilling rigs that Saigon has an a avatar..

Good news is -- You'll never hear them scream down there. And the little bits of chum that's left will be swept with the next tide...

 

[Grandma]

There's no such thing as One Size Fits All.

Windmills are a great source of energy - in places that get lots of wind and aren't in bird migration zones.

Solar power is wonderful - in places that get lots of sun.

I've seen both applied in the wrong places. But even where windmills are viable, why is there just one type - those mega giant huge ugly things? Why aren't there smaller ones on the market for smaller communities or farms? Where are the horizontal windmills?

Coal is declining. It is not going to last forever. It may well not last throughout our lifetimes. Even with mountaintop destruction it's expensive to mine and transport, and the clean coal factories don't operate cheaply.

If there were lots and lots of natural gas, why is fracking necessary? Why do they have to extract it from shale instead of from wells? Because there aren't any more wells?

Is anyone burning shit? Farms have an awful lot of manure, why aren't more farm communities powering up with methane?

"Windmills are a great source of energy - in places that get lots of wind and aren't in bird migration zones."

I've checked all my ornithology maps. There isn't a square inch of ocean or windswept land where birds don't fly. The places chosen for windmill farms in the past are killing some of the world's most hardy raptors, adapted to those areas, and now are threatened. Without them, in areas of their carrion selection, truly bad diseases would prosper if dead animals were left to rot on roadsides. Other birds found dead near windmills, such as the osprey, are now being placed at risk. Nobody knows when a flock of birds flies over sometimes because they're asleep or travel before or after most people wake up or lay down.

See?

Or on your next visit to the Mountains, how'd you like to see this?

​

You didn't read my entire post.

"But even where windmills are viable, why is there just one type - those mega giant huge ugly things? Why aren't there smaller ones on the market for smaller communities or farms? Where are the horizontal windmills?"

Remember the old-fashioned windmills that used to be on EVERY farm? Why aren't they being remanufactured for power in farming communities and schools?

 

[Grandma]

nobody cares about renewables really. They get some token mention from time to time ( like in the debate) but nobody with half a brain takes them seriously. Go google ANY graph of our energy consumption 25 years from now and all you see is this tiny laughable sliver of color.

What dominates the graphs???
COAL
NATURAL GAS
NUCLEAR

Yep. And what is avoided? Yep. Green Energy Fails:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6SuCut91WY]Out of control Windmill - YouTube[/ame]

In the early 1960s city workers burning trash accidentally ignited an exposed coal vein just outside of Centralia, Pennsylvania. Despite the efforts of local fire departments, and subsequently 2 very major floods (including Hurricane Agnes) the fire burns to this day and will continue to burn for at least another 100 years. Centralia had to be abandoned, homes, schools, churches, even the cemetery.

[ame="http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZtW8Jy_7ro"]http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZtW8Jy_7ro[/ame]

 

[flacaltenn]

There's no such thing as One Size Fits All.

Windmills are a great source of energy - in places that get lots of wind and aren't in bird migration zones.

Solar power is wonderful - in places that get lots of sun.

I've seen both applied in the wrong places. But even where windmills are viable, why is there just one type - those mega giant huge ugly things? Why aren't there smaller ones on the market for smaller communities or farms? Where are the horizontal windmills?

Coal is declining. It is not going to last forever. It may well not last throughout our lifetimes. Even with mountaintop destruction it's expensive to mine and transport, and the clean coal factories don't operate cheaply.

If there were lots and lots of natural gas, why is fracking necessary? Why do they have to extract it from shale instead of from wells? Because there aren't any more wells?

Is anyone burning shit? Farms have an awful lot of manure, why aren't more farm communities powering up with methane?

"Windmills are a great source of energy - in places that get lots of wind and aren't in bird migration zones."

I've checked all my ornithology maps. There isn't a square inch of ocean or windswept land where birds don't fly. The places chosen for windmill farms in the past are killing some of the world's most hardy raptors, adapted to those areas, and now are threatened. Without them, in areas of their carrion selection, truly bad diseases would prosper if dead animals were left to rot on roadsides. Other birds found dead near windmills, such as the osprey, are now being placed at risk. Nobody knows when a flock of birds flies over sometimes because they're asleep or travel before or after most people wake up or lay down.

See?

You didn't read my entire post.

"But even where windmills are viable, why is there just one type - those mega giant huge ugly things? Why aren't there smaller ones on the market for smaller communities or farms? Where are the horizontal windmills?"

Remember the old-fashioned windmills that used to be on EVERY farm? Why aren't they being remanufactured for power in farming communities and schools?

Because Granny --- Wind in "small scale" enviros is not productive. Doesn't help a school to go dark 3 days a week when the wind doesn't blow. And if it blows at night on a farm, it's NOT THERE to use the next day... Makes little economic sense or we would have seen WIDESPREAD worldwide adoption 40 years ago.. The tech for "small turbines" hasn't changed since then..

It's only feasible on LARGE SCALE farms with huge taxpayer subsidies and backed up by a fully functional Nat Gas, Nuclear, or Coal plant for the days and times when NOT A DROP of energy is being produced...

BTW: I BELIEVE that those "old fashioned windmills" on farms were used solely to pump WATER and not largely to generate electricity.. Something that's no longer required once you're connected to the grid...

 

[Saigon]

Oddball -

The turbines are manufactured by a privately owned company.

Whether they have ever received any seed capital or taxpayer investment from the UK government I have no idea - but if they did, I would think it has been money well spent, wouldn't you?

Who suggested Calgary use tidal power?

Nobody.

A privately owned company and that Division of it exists purely thanks to the largesse of the taxpayers of those countries. My gosh you're ignorant.

Please try and post honestly.

If I haven't named the company here - how do you know who owns it?

 

[Saigon]

Since when are the Green EcoFrauds DEMANDING we install Marine Cuisinarts in the middle of huge ecosystems with tremendous currents????


DOES THAT LOOK ECO-FRIENDLY TO YOU????

Think I could a get permit to install one of those chopping devices in the AnWar? I'm sure SpongeBob and the Little Mermaid would rather take their chances with one of those deadly "red-tinged" drilling rigs that Saigon has an a avatar..

Good news is -- You'll never hear them scream down there. And the little bits of chum that's left will be swept with the next tide...

Please try and post sensibly and honestly - no one is "demanding" anything.

Private companies are making sales because they have a very, very good product.

The mills are invisible, silent and produce no pollution at all.

So yes - I would say that is eco-friendly.

 

[Saigon]

Invest your own money, you cheapskate.

Notice that odd-dude is too dumb and too dishonest to quote my comment and offer anything of substance. Not that such behavior on his part would surprise anyone.

Note that those who thanked him for his post are equally dumb and also incapable of responding with anything of substance.

It is amazing - on one page he rants about tax payers money being used - and then goes on to rant about prviate investment being used.

I'm not sure Oddball really gets the concept of capitalism.

 

[flacaltenn]

Since when are the Green EcoFrauds DEMANDING we install Marine Cuisinarts in the middle of huge ecosystems with tremendous currents????


DOES THAT LOOK ECO-FRIENDLY TO YOU????

Think I could a get permit to install one of those chopping devices in the AnWar? I'm sure SpongeBob and the Little Mermaid would rather take their chances with one of those deadly "red-tinged" drilling rigs that Saigon has an a avatar..

Good news is -- You'll never hear them scream down there. And the little bits of chum that's left will be swept with the next tide...

Please try and post sensibly and honestly - no one is "demanding" anything.

Private companies are making sales because they have a very, very good product.

The mills are invisible, silent and produce no pollution at all.

So yes - I would say that is eco-friendly.

Were you afraid to repost that picture of a Tidal Generator? Too frightening looking to you???

Here -- let's look at it again...

So you're telling ALL of us here that YOU don't see ANY environmental issues AT ALL with widespread adoption of this measly energy technology????

How dishonest are you Saigon??? I could bury an oil pump underground and it would be SILENT and INVISIBLE --- would that make you happy?

In fact if SILENT is important to you -- how about living a mile or two from a huge wind farm.. Wanna prove to us how consistent your evaluations are???

THe fluids contained in the transmission of those generators? That --- doesn't concern you? It's not a problem to fricasse a couple tons of squid, or eel or manatee or porpoise??

 

[Saigon]

Flac -

Who cares what they look like?

You do know they live underwater, right? You'll never have to see them.

And it scarecly needs mentioning that most tidal turbines look nothing like what you posted - they look more like windmills on short stems. I don't think we need to ask why your picture looks so atypical.

btw, How do you feel about how coal plants look?

 

[flacaltenn]

Saigon -- you're really not answering my questions -- why should I keep answering yours???

Your "game" is getting old..

 

[flacaltenn]

Flac -

Who cares what they look like?

You do know they live underwater, right? You'll never have to see them.

And it scarecly needs mentioning that most tidal turbines look nothing like what you posted - they look more like windmills on short stems. I don't think we need to ask why your picture looks so atypical.

btw, How do you feel about how coal plants look?

You really have no idea WHAT you're invested in do you?? TidGEN in the picture I supplied is one of the WORLDS MOST DEPLOYED tidal turbines with more sea experience than most other companies combined... Spare me what "most tidal turbines" look like...

ALSO happens to be American --- which knocks your "we're late to the party" theme right out of the park...

Maine Launches the First Commercial Tidal Power Project in the US! TidGen System Bay of Fundy

http://www.reinforcedplastics.com/v...e-components-for-orpc-s-tidgen-tidal-turbine/

 

[Saigon]

Flac -

I tend to ignore questions which we both know you could answer yourself, or which are wildly off-topic.

If you have a serious question - ask it here and you have my word that I will answer it.

 

[westwall]

Oddball -

The turbines are manufactured by a privately owned company.

Whether they have ever received any seed capital or taxpayer investment from the UK government I have no idea - but if they did, I would think it has been money well spent, wouldn't you?

Who suggested Calgary use tidal power?

Nobody.

A privately owned company and that Division of it exists purely thanks to the largesse of the taxpayers of those countries. My gosh you're ignorant.

Please try and post honestly.

If I haven't named the company here - how do you know who owns it?

Ummm, because unlike you I know how to do research? And yes, that division exhists solely because of the tax deals worked out with the government.

 

[Saigon]

You really have no idea WHAT you're invested in do you?? TidGEN in the picture I supplied is one of the WORLDS MOST DEPLOYED tidal turbines with more sea experience than most other companies combined... Spare me what "most tidal turbines" look like...

I think not.

Perhaps you American products are, as I suggested, massively outdated.

This is what most turbines look like in the modern age:

 

[Saigon]

Ummm, because unlike you I know how to do research? And yes, that division exhists solely because of the tax deals worked out with the government.

Nonsense.

Again - I haven't named the company. How you would then know which company I meant AND it's ownership structure is beyond stupid.