Why we have to redistribute income through taxes

[daveman]

BECAUSE THOSE 'JOB CREATORS' DIDN'T CREATE THEIR WEALTH IN A BUBBLE, IT WAS BECAUSE OF THE BLOOD, SWEAT AND MANY DEATHS OF MANY THAT CAME BEFORE THEM. WE CREATED A SOCIETY WITH RULES AND LAWS TO HELP THEM BUILD THAT MONEY. IF THEY DON'T WANT TO SHARE IT, GET THE **** OUT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!



The US corporate business model has changed: It used to be based on sharing profits with workers to incentivize them and generate loyalty. Now, the model has shifted to rewarding not workers, but shareholders and upper management.. So, as corporate profits soar, the rich get richer and workers are told they are lucky to even have a job so stop whining about income disparity.


Big Money, it doesn’t matter whether it is from the Left or the Right, is drowning The People’s Voice out of our Representative Democracy, plain and simple

It seems that only those on the Left are concerned about this. Why? Do we cherish the idea of Democracy more than those on the Right?


How is it that so many on the Right, who practically worship the Founders of this, cannot see that this conflux of consolidated wealth and influence is EXACTLY what the Founders fought against?



History has proven through the centuries that the type of wealth/power consolidation we are seeing is rarely a good thing.

History has proven conclusively that what you want is NEVER a good thing.

You wept bitterly when the Berlin Wall fell, didn't you?

Parrots repeat what they hear. The RW media doesn't profit from educating their listeners. They know the money is in saying outrageous things that fit their listeners ideology. The listeners want to be outraged. The RW media produces the outrageous material. Truth not required. It's a symbiotic relationship.

Nope, no outrage there. It's nothing but cool, calm, collected Dad, all reasonable and rational and shit.

If you want to know how a progressive feels, see what he accuses conservatives of.

 

[daveman]

I think most of us would give up Walmart & Dollar Stories (cheep goods) if we could bring home all those high paying manufacturing jobs that are now going to chinese, mexican, canadian, european workers.

Those high paying manufacturing jobs spurred the economy. Companies thrived just servicing the big 3. All those jobs bye bye. I know some of it is technology and blabla but the rich/corporations/republicans/even blue dog democrats fucked us all. NAFTA. Mother fuckers. I'm cool with trade but unregulated free trade? Not so much. American workers were the envy of the world. People came here to start at the bottom and quickly work their way up. The GOP/Bush really fucked up the economy and NEVER admitted responsibility. It was always Clinton/Freddy Mac/Nancy Pelosi/Harry Reed/Obama. Suck my dick.

Look at all the hyper partisan (far left) propaganda in that post!

This proof and a great example of someone that does not have a clue of what has happened nor cares that it did happen except to point fingers.

Just because you paid a bunch of money for Apple products (made in China) does not mean you will bring back "high" paying jobs to the US.

What is your plan to create more high paying jobs?

How about we set the minimum wage at a thousand dollars an hour? That's a good progressive solution.

 

[Wyatt earp]

I think most of us would give up Walmart & Dollar Stories (cheep goods) if we could bring home all those high paying manufacturing jobs that are now going to chinese, mexican, canadian, european workers.

Those high paying manufacturing jobs spurred the economy. Companies thrived just servicing the big 3. All those jobs bye bye. I know some of it is technology and blabla but the rich/corporations/republicans/even blue dog democrats fucked us all. NAFTA. Mother fuckers. I'm cool with trade but unregulated free trade? Not so much. American workers were the envy of the world. People came here to start at the bottom and quickly work their way up. The GOP/Bush really fucked up the economy and NEVER admitted responsibility. It was always Clinton/Freddy Mac/Nancy Pelosi/Harry Reed/Obama. Suck my dick.

Dude take s chill pill

 

[beagle9]

The increasingly skewed income distribution pattern is a result of of what economists call "concentration of capital." It is a natural and inevitable result of our system. Fewer and fewer people own more and more because of the way the capitalist system works. Taxation and redistribution by the government is the only way to keep our current system and still maintain our constitutional democracy, which requires income distribution to remain within broad parameters in order to maintain social and political stability.

When enough people are suffering sufficiently, they turn to the government for relief. Provision of that relief is resisted by the people who have to pay for it in taxes. The result is called fascism when it fails, socialism when it succeeds. No matter which side of the economic highway we crash off, it is never as good as adjusting our democratic capitalism so that it works. Those who make evolution impossible make revolution inevitable.

Wrong, what we see happening today is the direct result of government policies, not the inevitible result of capitalism as you claim.

Now, we could have a socialist system where all of the money and all of the power is controlled by a very small group of super elites and everyone else is EQUALLY miserable. Would that be preferable to you?

But since you hate successful rich people so much, what do you propose we do about the wealth of Oprah and Beyonce?

Any system can be exploited, and if we have bad people being bad in larger and larger groups for whom are in power running the system, then it matters not what system it is that is in play, because what matters most is the type of individuals who are running the system and/or systems that are in play.

We have had good individuals running the system at times, and this is when the system worked for the numbers in which were large enough to keep it that way, and it stayed in a likeable balance for most when this was the case. Now somehow that has all went array, and this is why we see the addressing of the systems by so many these days going on, and this is why we see the want by many to replace one system for another due to blaming the system which is wrong of them to do so, because like I said it is not the system that is the problem, but it is the people who run the system or systems that are the problem when it goes bad. Get the bad out of the system, and the system or systems will return to good, and so it's that simple really.

 

[zeke]

Daveman, what is it with these geniuses? Their knowledge of economics, much less history, is so awful they write the stupidest things. It's like they're talking about some other country than the one I grew up in the 1960s/70s where Jimmy Carter gave us full employment, low inflation and a strong domestic industry while Ronald Reagan decimated the working class and handed money over to the rich. The opposite of course is what happened.
Their prescriptions are even worse. One asshole here who ludicrously claimed he had a business degree said the solution was price controls. When I pointed out importers of raw materials from abroad would go bankrupt his response was, no they wouldn't since they were located here and subject to the same controls as anyone else. WTF? Where do they teach this stuff?
WHo really believes that millions of people working in factories is a good thing? Who thinks that an America that doesnt import anything is stronger? The ignorance is so thick it is impenetrable.

Beats hell out of me, man. A profound disconnect from reality. Magical thinking. Believing that their words really do alter reality.

In short -- insanity.

Hey Daveman, the rabbi(t) is a self proclaimed economic genius. He (rabbit) claims that consumer spending does not drive about 70% of economic activity.

Do you agree with his position? Just curious if your knowledge of economics is any better than his.

 

[CitizenSeven]

The only fair tax is a flat tax: whatever percent, probably around 20%, applied to every single dollar earned by anyone, no deductions of any kind. That way special interests can't carve out subsidies to their activities, and anyone advocating for higher taxes will be willing to pony up themselves. Simple, easy, and eminently fair. It also gives everyone an incentive to make sure the USFG is only as big as it needs to be, and no more.

Flat taxes are an incredibly stupid and unfair way to tax. They're regressive, and place tax burdens on those who companies and the wealthy need the most, the consumers. It's a downward spiral for economies to go to flat taxes, national sales taxes, and other regressive taxes, unless the money goes to those consumers.

They are the very definition of fair: eveyone is treated exactly the same. If you live in a country that spends about 20% of gdp on the national government, then no matter who you are or what you make you should be responsible for the same percent of your gpp. Think that's too high? Then you have a political incentive to shrink federal spending. Instead, now, most have an incentive to grow the government since the cost will be paid by a minority. Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

[The Rabbi]

Daveman, what is it with these geniuses? Their knowledge of economics, much less history, is so awful they write the stupidest things. It's like they're talking about some other country than the one I grew up in the 1960s/70s where Jimmy Carter gave us full employment, low inflation and a strong domestic industry while Ronald Reagan decimated the working class and handed money over to the rich. The opposite of course is what happened.
Their prescriptions are even worse. One asshole here who ludicrously claimed he had a business degree said the solution was price controls. When I pointed out importers of raw materials from abroad would go bankrupt his response was, no they wouldn't since they were located here and subject to the same controls as anyone else. WTF? Where do they teach this stuff?
WHo really believes that millions of people working in factories is a good thing? Who thinks that an America that doesnt import anything is stronger? The ignorance is so thick it is impenetrable.

Beats hell out of me, man. A profound disconnect from reality. Magical thinking. Believing that their words really do alter reality.

In short -- insanity.

Hey Daveman, the rabbi(t) is a self proclaimed economic genius. He (rabbit) claims that consumer spending does not drive about 70% of economic activity.

Do you agree with his position? Just curious if your knowledge of economics is any better than his.

It's certainly better than yours, Zeke. Hell, Obama's is better than your's, and everything he knows is wrong.
How are you coming with that Google search? Need an adult to help?

 

[The Rabbi]

Oh gee, and here's an article from an economist saying exactly what I wrote. Too bad for old Zeke. Won't matter though. I could post a hundred articles and he'd claim they were biased. It's true, Zeke. They are biased towards the truth. Something you just dont get.
The Myth of Consumer Spending - Civitas Review

 

[MrZartok]

[...]

Finally, it is striking that you think that you are entitled to a redistribution. "Redistribution" means that there will be a "distribution". Why are you entitled to a distribution of wealth that was earned by someone else? The idea is absurd. If you want jobs, then put your effort into pushing a policy that will foster job creation. Extracting money from business via the tax code does nothing to create jobs, unless you a talking about creating a bunch of jobs created for the reason of employing people. This is also ridiculous.

The fundamental flaw in the ideology plugged into your brain by the likes of Hannity and Beck is the tired notion that I think I would benefit from a redistribution policy. This notion is predicated on your fear that such a policy means money will be transferred from your pocket to that of some welfare queen. This fear torments you in spite of the specifics outlined in my message.

The fact is my situation will remain the same whether or not economic redistribution takes place. I am 78 years old, so I won't be around long enough to see any major economic changes. And I presently enjoy a generous pension, Social Security, absence of debt, and a nice stack of U.S. Savings Bonds. So my only incentive is to have the damage done to this Nation, by a greedy and corrupt right-wing and its plutocratic offspring, to be reversed -- and for the Great American Middle Class to be restored to the status it enjoyed until the demented puppet, Ronald Reagan, initiated its incremental destruction.

Redistribution does not mean welfare or anything like that. It means re-circulating a substantial percentage of this Nation's wealth resources which have been slyly and unscrupulously deposited into offshore tax havens via a variety of financial schemes and politically facilitated scams, and using those funds to aid in overhauling our decayed infrastructure, thus putting America back to work at good-paying, critically necessary construction jobs.

Your ideology is misplaced in a capitalist, free market economy. You are arguing points that are not relevant here. You are wasting your time. Unless your goal is to destroy or replace capitalism, then your time would be better spent on promoting free trade, a robust economy, and prosperity. The need for jobs will follow. As the need for labor increases, then wages will increase. Our system does not provide for distribution to groups who offer nothing of value in exchange. Thus, socialist arguments are irrelevant.

As I made perfectly clear, but was obviously ignored because of your indoctrinated mindset, my ambition is not to destroy our capitalist system but simply to replace the highly effective and constructive socialist regulations which were removed by Reagan, Clinton, and Bush, causing the economic disaster of 2008 and its subsequent effects.

In the simplest terms, I wish to see the right-wing progression of de-regulation reversed and the damage it did repaired. And one of the ways to do that is a confiscatory tax on the One Percent.

You are lying. You are not 78 years old. People from that generation do not hold your whacked out views, talk about the one percenters or of confiscatory tax (a term which ought to scare the hell out of everyone regardless of your station in life).

In short.... Swing and a miss!


Sent from my iPad using USMessageBoard.com

 

[Redfish]

The increasingly skewed income distribution pattern is a result of of what economists call "concentration of capital." It is a natural and inevitable result of our system. Fewer and fewer people own more and more because of the way the capitalist system works. Taxation and redistribution by the government is the only way to keep our current system and still maintain our constitutional democracy, which requires income distribution to remain within broad parameters in order to maintain social and political stability.

When enough people are suffering sufficiently, they turn to the government for relief. Provision of that relief is resisted by the people who have to pay for it in taxes. The result is called fascism when it fails, socialism when it succeeds. No matter which side of the economic highway we crash off, it is never as good as adjusting our democratic capitalism so that it works. Those who make evolution impossible make revolution inevitable.

Wrong, what we see happening today is the direct result of government policies, not the inevitible result of capitalism as you claim.

Now, we could have a socialist system where all of the money and all of the power is controlled by a very small group of super elites and everyone else is EQUALLY miserable. Would that be preferable to you?

But since you hate successful rich people so much, what do you propose we do about the wealth of Oprah and Beyonce?

Any system can be exploited, and if we have bad people being bad in larger and larger groups for whom are in power running the system, then it matters not what system it is that is in play, because what matters most is the type of individuals who are running the system and/or systems that are in play.

We have had good individuals running the system at times, and this is when the system worked for the numbers in which were large enough to keep it that way, and it stayed in a likeable balance for most when this was the case. Now somehow that has all went array, and this is why we see the addressing of the systems by so many these days going on, and this is why we see the want by many to replace one system for another due to blaming the system which is wrong of them to do so, because like I said it is not the system that is the problem, but it is the people who run the system or systems that are the problem when it goes bad. Get the bad out of the system, and the system or systems will return to good, and so it's that simple really.

gobbledegook.

answer my question: what should be done about the obscene wealth of Oprah and Beyonce?

should it be taken from them, should they be jailed? Should the govt move 100 homeless people into their mansions?

what do you want done to these evil rich people?

 

[Care4all]

Wrong, what we see happening today is the direct result of government policies, not the inevitible result of capitalism as you claim.

Now, we could have a socialist system where all of the money and all of the power is controlled by a very small group of super elites and everyone else is EQUALLY miserable. Would that be preferable to you?

But since you hate successful rich people so much, what do you propose we do about the wealth of Oprah and Beyonce?

Any system can be exploited, and if we have bad people being bad in larger and larger groups for whom are in power running the system, then it matters not what system it is that is in play, because what matters most is the type of individuals who are running the system and/or systems that are in play.

We have had good individuals running the system at times, and this is when the system worked for the numbers in which were large enough to keep it that way, and it stayed in a likeable balance for most when this was the case. Now somehow that has all went array, and this is why we see the addressing of the systems by so many these days going on, and this is why we see the want by many to replace one system for another due to blaming the system which is wrong of them to do so, because like I said it is not the system that is the problem, but it is the people who run the system or systems that are the problem when it goes bad. Get the bad out of the system, and the system or systems will return to good, and so it's that simple really.

gobbledegook.

answer my question: what should be done about the obscene wealth of Oprah and Beyonce?

should it be taken from them, should they be jailed? Should the govt move 100 homeless people into their mansions?

what do you want done to these evil rich people?

Does Oprah not pay her employees well enough to not be on the gvt assistance programs that we have to pay for? Does Beyonce?

Jailed? what are you rambling about????? Taxing someone at a higher rate is now jailing someone? NOTE! I am reading this thread from the end going backwards so maybe I will understand what your saying when I continue to read....???

 

[The Rabbi]

Any system can be exploited, and if we have bad people being bad in larger and larger groups for whom are in power running the system, then it matters not what system it is that is in play, because what matters most is the type of individuals who are running the system and/or systems that are in play.

We have had good individuals running the system at times, and this is when the system worked for the numbers in which were large enough to keep it that way, and it stayed in a likeable balance for most when this was the case. Now somehow that has all went array, and this is why we see the addressing of the systems by so many these days going on, and this is why we see the want by many to replace one system for another due to blaming the system which is wrong of them to do so, because like I said it is not the system that is the problem, but it is the people who run the system or systems that are the problem when it goes bad. Get the bad out of the system, and the system or systems will return to good, and so it's that simple really.

gobbledegook.

answer my question: what should be done about the obscene wealth of Oprah and Beyonce?

should it be taken from them, should they be jailed? Should the govt move 100 homeless people into their mansions?

what do you want done to these evil rich people?

Does Oprah not pay her employees well enough to not be on the gvt assistance programs that we have to pay for? Does Beyonce?

Jailed? what are you rambling about????? Taxing someone at a higher rate is now jailing someone? NOTE! I am reading this thread from the end going backwards so maybe I will understand what your saying when I continue to read....???

Why are you deflecting from answering his question?
If huge incomes are obscene for CEOs then why not for Oprah and Beyonce, who are of course also CEOs?

 

[daveman]

Daveman, what is it with these geniuses? Their knowledge of economics, much less history, is so awful they write the stupidest things. It's like they're talking about some other country than the one I grew up in the 1960s/70s where Jimmy Carter gave us full employment, low inflation and a strong domestic industry while Ronald Reagan decimated the working class and handed money over to the rich. The opposite of course is what happened.
Their prescriptions are even worse. One asshole here who ludicrously claimed he had a business degree said the solution was price controls. When I pointed out importers of raw materials from abroad would go bankrupt his response was, no they wouldn't since they were located here and subject to the same controls as anyone else. WTF? Where do they teach this stuff?
WHo really believes that millions of people working in factories is a good thing? Who thinks that an America that doesnt import anything is stronger? The ignorance is so thick it is impenetrable.

Beats hell out of me, man. A profound disconnect from reality. Magical thinking. Believing that their words really do alter reality.

In short -- insanity.

Hey Daveman, the rabbi(t) is a self proclaimed economic genius. He (rabbit) claims that consumer spending does not drive about 70% of economic activity.

Do you agree with his position? Just curious if your knowledge of economics is any better than his.

Given progressives' general history of lies and deception, I'd need to see links to see if your claims of his positions are accurate.

And given progressives' general history of profound ignorance about economics, anyone who disagrees with them is pretty much automatically right.

 

[beagle9]

Any system can be exploited, and if we have bad people being bad in larger and larger groups for whom are in power running the system, then it matters not what system it is that is in play, because what matters most is the type of individuals who are running the system and/or systems that are in play.

We have had good individuals running the system at times, and this is when the system worked for the numbers in which were large enough to keep it that way, and it stayed in a likeable balance for most when this was the case. Now somehow that has all went array, and this is why we see the addressing of the systems by so many these days going on, and this is why we see the want by many to replace one system for another due to blaming the system which is wrong of them to do so, because like I said it is not the system that is the problem, but it is the people who run the system or systems that are the problem when it goes bad. Get the bad out of the system, and the system or systems will return to good, and so it's that simple really.

gobbledegook.

answer my question: what should be done about the obscene wealth of Oprah and Beyonce?

should it be taken from them, should they be jailed? Should the govt move 100 homeless people into their mansions?

what do you want done to these evil rich people?

Does Oprah not pay her employees well enough to not be on the gvt assistance programs that we have to pay for? Does Beyonce?

Jailed? what are you rambling about????? Taxing someone at a higher rate is now jailing someone? NOTE! I am reading this thread from the end going backwards so maybe I will understand what your saying when I continue to read....???

Good answer, but I don't agree with tax schemes designed or appointed unfairly to one group or another because of their successes. There are much better solutions that are fair for all, but first we have to come together in this nation to realize them.

 

[Mr. H.]

Redistribute income?

You take away the food from my family's table and I will **** you up but good.

 

[Mathbud1]

Threads like these confirm how correct we are to fight -- to death if necessary, to retain our Second Amendment rights

Are you saying we should have shot the rich people who rigged the system and redistributed our wealth to themselves or are you only going to take up arms if we try to take what they stole back?

And are you rich or are you going to fight us for your master?

Chances are you aren't rich enough to worry about it. Chances are if we re distribute that wealth that'll put a few extra bucks in your pocket.

Oh I get it. Every dollar every rich person has was STOLEN. That's how you can justify stealing it back. I see now.

 

[Mathbud1]

The problem is obvious to anyone capable of reading charts. Unfortunately, most right wingers aren't that bright.

You assume the increase in productivity is because of the middle class.

You mean the people doing the work who are making more stuff? Those guys?

You mean the people who are doing EASIER work making more stuff? Those guys? The ones who are working jobs that have been made much much easier and safer by technology and investment by the companies that they work for?

 

[Mathbud1]

the difference is you know what the unions are asking for ... you don't know what these corporations are wanting, you dolts ... unions are asking for more money for the worker, more workers ... the corporations are asking to take that money back and do it so they all lose ... look at all the retirement plans that have been stolen from retired Union workers under the disguise of keep the corporation open ... what do these corporations do ??? the get it to where its making good money, then move that plant to over seas to make larger profits ... you haven't a clue in what's going on here ..... you just listen to your repub-lie-tard masters all the way to the poor house ...then blame it on us liberals for not stopping it ... you're to stupid to pay attention

Please cite the union workers whose retirement has been stolen by companies moving oversees.

Airline works for one ... they were told by the government, Bush's government that these company now can take their retirement plans to save the company ... go look at all of the companies that Mit Romeny bought up and closed down to be moved to china... the first thing they did was take their retirement plans ... telling them it was to save their company ... when the company depleted their retirement plan, that company that mit was running, thats started making profit, he would then say they need to pay back the debt that they created for to him to buy the company ... he then would sell the company, causing the company to be sold to a corporation that he own, then that company would close down that company and move it to china ... and all of those retirement that were lost, forcing the american tax payer to pay them a small retirement ... now tell me that didn't happen ...

Maybe you should dig a little deeper. I've only looked into the top two companies that Obama supporters supposedly blasted Romney for and Obama's supporters didn't even tell a fraction of the story. for example GST steel:

The Obama ad doesn't note that the broader company, GS Industries, employed 3,500 and that the Kansas City plant (with 750 workers) was the only one shuttered. Other plants were bought and operate today. Nor does it mention Bain's other steel investment in the early 1990s, in an Indiana start-up called Steel Dynamics. The firm touts innovative technology and a nonunion workforce. It today reports $6.3 billion in revenue—25 times what it claimed in its 1996 IPO—and employs 6,000.

A private-equity firm looking to quickly strip value from a company—to "suck" the life out of it—does not do so by investing $100 million in modernization and holding on for eight years, through bankruptcy. Bain has surely made its share of mistakes, and one may well have been trying to resuscitate a traditional steel firm in the grip of industry upheaval. The irony, says Mr. Huselton, is that this plant "wouldn't even be in today's news, if it hadn't been the opportunity that came with Bain. Those jobs would have been gone in 1993."

Strassel: Vampire Capitalism? Please - WSJ

 

[Mathbud1]

the difference is you know what the unions are asking for ... you don't know what these corporations are wanting, you dolts ... unions are asking for more money for the worker, more workers ... the corporations are asking to take that money back and do it so they all lose ... look at all the retirement plans that have been stolen from retired Union workers under the disguise of keep the corporation open ... what do these corporations do ??? the get it to where its making good money, then move that plant to over seas to make larger profits ... you haven't a clue in what's going on here ..... you just listen to your repub-lie-tard masters all the way to the poor house ...then blame it on us liberals for not stopping it ... you're to stupid to pay attention

Of course we do. Unions are asking for things to make the unions stronger that's what they do. My dad was a lifelong Teamster and he watched his pension robbed repeatedly so the Teamster bosses could live large on the backs of the membership.

My dad despises the Teamsters.

you got a source for that lie of your ??? you know the lie about Teamster and he watched his pension robbed repeatedly so the Teamster bosses could live large on the backs of the membership. the unions couldn't touch his retirement ... only the corporation could thats the law ... it was designed to save it self from closing ... he should have been angry at the company not the union ... union can't touch or with draw any money from a retirement account ... you're lying here ...

Yeah, cuz everyone always obeys the law. Right?

 

[Mathbud1]

Are you saying we should have shot the rich people who rigged the system and redistributed our wealth to themselves or are you only going to take up arms if we try to take what they stole back?

And are you rich or are you going to fight us for your master?

Chances are you aren't rich enough to worry about it. Chances are if we re distribute that wealth that'll put a few extra bucks in your pocket.

f course. Who do you think is pushing gun control? The wealthy can't kill you till you're disarmed. The multinational corporations are not our friends. All these laws that are passed to regulate corporations really serve to harm the smaller corporations that are in local competition with the multinationals.

I love the small LLC's and the mom and pop businesses that I support, I don't like the big box stores and assholes like Goldman Sachs that you progressives bend over backwards to support.

Well the people you vote for don't care about about llc's or mom and pop shops. If you notice who defends Walmart on USMB it's usually the right not us liberal progressives.

Great example. In secrecy Bush lifted the regulations on chinese tire companies shipping their cheap inferior tires into the USA. No regard for our domestic tire industry. Just one small example but it sort of explains why you are a stupid brainwash ****.

It doesn't matter if you personally support Wal-Mart, if you support policies that help them, or at least only hurt them less than they hurt mom and pop shops.