Why Should God Let You Into Heaven?

[MaxGrit]

OP, God should let you into Heaven for the same reason you're parents let you in their house. You belong to them and they love you, and it is where you belong.
When you re-pent, you return to the highest level, (as in penthouse) where we belong.

And Max, good post:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Grace is an unmerited (unearned) gift from God. It's God sovereign will that he gives the gift of mercy (salvation) to some people by bringing them to faith in Jesus Christ.

What is salvation?
-Saved from.

Saved from what?
-Punishment for sins in Hell.

Why must God punish sinners for their sins?
-It's God's will.

Why does God will it be so?
-It's due to the character of God.

What is God's character?
-One of God's perfect infinite characteristics is Holy Justice.

What is Holy Justice?
-God's perfect justice. It means God wills punishment for all sins. All sins are punished according to what the sins are.

If God wills punishment for all sins, no matter how small, how can he grants salvation to sinners?
-Jesus Christ took the punishment for the sins of all who have faith in him, as required by God's Holy Justice, on the cross.

Who is granted this gift of salvation by the grace of God?
-It's God's will that he elects some sinners to grant the gift of mercy. These sinners are called the elect. The saints is another way to call these sinners.

Why does God grant salvation to only some sinners, not all sinners?
-Mercy is a gift that is not required to be given. Mercy is contrasted to justice. Justice is required action from God.

The only thing I would add is that the gift of salvation is offered to all. I know that because Christ left no one out. He removed the sins of the world, the original, and those we have added to it. Any one can come to the foot of the cross and receive redemption. Not all will, but all have the opportunity.

God has to be 100% just as in justice, and 100% merciful as in forgiveness and favor we don't deserve. Through Christ, God accomplished the first task. That role, the one of Judge, has been fulfilled for all of those who accept the propitiation Christ offers, which in turn allows God to revert to the role of the loving Father He started out as, who is quick to forgive and cover His children.
Thank Christ for taking our place in court, and allowing our sentence to be carried out on Him.
Accept Christ's gift, and re-pent. To the highest level. Where we belong, as children of the Most High, and co-heirs with our Savior, Jesus.

Thank you. It's true that the gift of salvation is offered to all sinners, if only they would accept it. However, being sinners they love sins and if left to their own will, they will never have faith in Jesus Christ.

God, being merciful, chooses to bring the elect to faith in Jesus Christ. It's all due to God that the saints come to faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Mercy is not granted to everyone. If it is given to all, then mercy would be justice.

A good way to think about mercy is to imagine a Presidential pardon for a convicted criminal. That is an act of mercy by the President. It's absurd to think that mercy requires that the President pardons all criminal.

Kind of turning a blind eye to the scriptures aren't we?

Rom_11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Joh_12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

1Jn_2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Joh_4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

1Jn_4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

1Ti_2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti_4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

God is only calling a few in this present age. It will be the job of the resurrected saints to finally teach the truth to all mankind during Christ's Kingdom reign when Satan is locked away and will have no influence. The playing field will be again equal to that time before Satan's appearance in the Garden. Once all mankind has been taught the truth, Satan will be freed again and each man or woman will then make their final decision.

Jesus Christ is the savior of all men who have faith in Him as their Lord and Savior. However, a lot of men will not accept this gift of salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is also savior of the world, meaning He will make the sinful world into a new sinless world.

If you read the scriptures as a whole, all means all the elect.

 

[MaxGrit]

Limited atonement is it biblical

Question: "Limited atonement—is it biblical?"

Answer: “Limited atonement” is a term that is used to summarize what the Bible teaches about the purpose for Christ’s death on the cross and what His life, death and resurrection accomplished. It is the third letter of the acronym TULIP, which is commonly used to explain what are known as the five points of Calvinism, also known as the doctrines of grace. The doctrine of limited atonement is clearly the most controversial and maybe even the most misunderstood of all the doctrines of grace. Because the name can confuse people and cause them to have wrong ideas about what is meant, some people prefer to use terms like “particular redemption,” “definite redemption,” “actual atonement,” or “intentional atonement.” These terms correctly focus on the fact that the Bible reveals Jesus’ death on the cross was intentional and had a definite purpose that it succeeded in accomplishing. Yet, like all of the doctrines of grace, what is important is not the name that is assigned to the doctrine but how accurately the doctrine summarizes what the Bible teaches about the nature and purpose of Jesus’ sacrificial death on the cross.

The doctrine of limited atonement affirms that the Bible teaches Christ’s atoning work on the cross was done with a definite purpose in mind—to redeem for God people from every tribe, tongue and nation (Revelation 5:9). Jesus died, according to Matthew 1:21, to “save His people from their sins.” This truth is seen in many passages throughout Scripture. In John 10:15, we see that He lays “down His life for the sheep.” Who are the sheep? They are the people chosen by God from before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4). These are the same ones Jesus said were given to Him by the Father in order that He would fulfill the Father’s will by losing none of them and by raising all of them up in the last day (John 6:37-40). The truth that Jesus came for this specific reason is seen in both the Old and New Testaments. One of the greatest passages on the atonement in the Old Testament is Isaiah 53. In this passage alone, we see that He was “stricken for the transgression of God’s people” (Isaiah 53:8); that He would “justify many” because “He shall bear their iniquities” (Isaiah 53:11); and that He indeed “bore the sin of many” (Isaiah 53:12). These verses and many others talk about an atonement that was specific in whom it covered (God’s people), was substitutionary in nature (He actually bore their sins on the cross), and actually accomplished what God intended it to do (justify many). Clearly, here is a picture of an intentional, definite atonement. Christ died not simply to make justification a possibility but to actually justify those He died for. He died to save them, not to make them savable.

The doctrine of limited atonement also recognizes that the Bible teaches Jesus’ death on the cross was a substitutionary atonement for sins. Many theologians use the word “vicarious” to describe Christ’s atonement. This word means “acting on behalf of” or “representing another” and is used to describe “something performed or suffered by one person with the results accruing to the benefit or advantage of another.” The vicarious atonement of Christ means He was acting as a representative for a specific group of people (the elect) who would receive a direct benefit (salvation) as the result of His death. This concept is clearly seen in 2 Corinthians 5 “He (God the Father) made Him (Christ) who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” If Jesus actually stood in my place and bore my sin on the cross as the Bible teaches, then I can never be punished for that sin. In order for Christ’s atonement to truly be a substitutionary or vicarious atonement, then it must actually secure a real salvation for all for whom Christ died. If the atonement only makes salvation a possibility, then it cannot be a vicarious atonement. If Christ acted as a real and true substitute for those for whom He died, then all for whom He died will be saved. To say that Christ died a vicarious death in the place of all sinners but that not all sinners will be saved is a contradiction.

Four different words or aspects of the atonement are clearly seen in Scripture, and each one helps us understand the nature and extent of the atonement. These four words are ransom, reconciliation, propitiation and substitute. These four aspects of Christ’s atonement all speak of Christ as having actually accomplished something in His death. A study of these four terms in their biblical contexts leads to the obvious conclusion that one cannot hold to a true universal atonement without also requiring universal salvation. If one holds to an unlimited atonement while denying universal salvation, one ends up with a redemption that leaves men not totally free or actually redeemed, a reconciliation that leaves men still estranged from God, a propitiation that leaves men still under the wrath of God, and a substitutionary death that still makes the sinner himself help pay the debt of his sin. All of these aspects of the atoning work of Christ then become nothing more than a possibility that relies upon man to make them a reality.

But that is not what the Bible teaches. It teaches that those who are redeemed by Christ are truly free and their debt has been fully paid. It teaches that those who are reconciled to God are actually reconciled and the wall of separation that existed between them and God has been torn down (Colossians 2:14). It teaches that Christ’s death on the cross was a sacrifice that fully satisfied the wrath of God. It also teaches that Christ was indeed a substitute, a kinsmen redeemer, who acted in place of and on behalf of His people. When Jesus died on the cross, He said, “It is finished” (John 19:30), and the Greek word translated “finished” is teleō, which was used to indicate that a debt had been paid in full. And that is exactly what Jesus accomplished on the cross. “When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross” (Colossians 2:13-14).

One common misunderstanding about the doctrine of limited atonement is that this view somehow lessens or limits the value of the atonement of Christ. Yet exactly the opposite is true. Limited atonement correctly recognizes that Christ’s death was of infinite value and lacking in nothing. In fact, it is of such value that, had God so willed, Christ’s death could have saved every member of the human race. Christ would not have had to suffer any more or do anything different to save every human who ever lived than He did in securing the salvation of the elect. But that was not God’s purpose in sending Christ to the cross. God’s purpose in the atonement was that Jesus would secure forever the salvation of those the Father had given to Him (Hebrews 7:25). Therefore, while Christ’s atonement was limited in its intent or purpose, it was unlimited in its power.

Another common misunderstanding about the doctrine of limited atonement is that it somehow lessens or diminishes the love of God for humanity. Yet, again, exactly the opposite is true. Of all of the doctrines of grace, the doctrine of limited atonement, when correctly understood, magnifies the love of God; it does not diminish it. Limited atonement reinforces the intensive love of God that is revealed in the Bible. God loves His people with a love that saves them from their sin, as opposed to the love of the unlimited atonement view that sees God’s love as being more general in nature. In the unlimited atonement view, He loves everyone in general but saves no one in particular and, in fact, leaves the matter of their salvation up to them. Which is more loving, a love that actually saves people or a love that makes salvation “possible” to those who are dead in trespasses and sins and unable to choose God?

One of the main arguments used against limited atonement is that, if Christ did not atone for the sins of everybody in the world and if God only intended to save the elect, how do you explain the numerous biblical passages that indicate the free offer of the gospel to “whosoever will come?” How can God offer salvation to all, including those whom He has not elected or foreordained to be saved? How can we understand the paradox that occurs because the Bible teaches God intends that only the elect will be saved, yet, on the other hand, the Bible also unequivocally declares that God freely and sincerely offers salvation to everyone who will believe? (Ezekiel 33:11; Isaiah 45:22; 55:1; Matthew 11:28; 23:37; 2 Peter 3:9; Revelation 22:17) The solution to this paradox is simply an acknowledgment of all that the Bible teaches. 1) The call of the gospel is universal in the sense that anybody that hears it and believes in it will be saved. 2) Because everyone is dead in trespasses and sin, no one will believe the gospel and respond in faith unless God first makes those who are dead in their trespasses and sins alive (Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that “whosoever believes” will have eternal life and then explains why some believe and some don’t.

Another argument against limited atonement points to the passages in the Bible that speak of Christ’s atonement in a more general or unlimited sense. For example, in 1 John 2:2 John says that Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the “whole world.” Likewise, in John 4:42 Jesus is called the “Savior of the world” and in John 1:29 is said to “take way the sin of the world.” Other verses that seem to indicate an unlimited view of the atonement include 2 Corinthians 5:14-15: “He died for all” and 1 Timothy 2:6: “He gave Himself a ransom for all” (although Matthew 20:28 and Mark 10:45 say Christ came to “give His life a ransom for many”). Those who believe in unlimited atonement use such verses to make the point that, if Christ died for all and takes away the sins of the world, then His atonement cannot be limited to only the elect. However, these verses are easily reconciled with the many other verses that support the doctrine of limited atonement simply by recognizing that often the Bible uses the words “world” or “all” in a limited sense. They do not automatically mean “every individual in the entire world.” This is evident when just a few verses are considered. In Luke 2:1 it is recorded that a “decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered,” and Luke 2:3 says, “So all went to be registered everyone to his own city.” But, clearly, it is not talking about every individual in the whole world. Caesar’s decree did not apply to the Japanese, Chinese or countless other people throughout the world.

Similarly, the Pharisees, being dismayed at Jesus’ growing popularity said, “Look how the whole world has gone after Him!” Did every single person in the world follow Jesus? Or was the “world” limited to a small area of Palestine in which Jesus preached?

So, it should be readily apparent that the phrase “all” or “all the world” does not necessarily mean every individual. Understanding that basic fact allows one to consider each of these seemingly universal passages in their contexts, and, when that is done, it becomes apparent that they do not present any conflict with the doctrine of limited atonement.

Yet another argument against limited atonement is that it is a hindrance to the preaching of the gospel and to evangelism. Those that use this argument will say that if an evangelist cannot say, “Christ died for you,” then his effectiveness in presenting the gospel will be limited. Or they will say that, if only the elect will be saved, why should the gospel be preached at all? Once again, these objections are easily dealt with. The gospel is to be preached to everyone because it is the power of God to salvation for all who believe (Romans 1:16), and it is the means that God has ordained by which the elect will be saved (Romans 10:14-17). Also, the evangelist does not need to tell the unbeliever that “Christ died for your sins,” specifically. All he needs to proclaim is that Christ died to pay the penalty for sin and provide a way for sinners to be reconciled to a holy God. Believe in Him, and you will be saved.

The doctrines of grace, and specifically the doctrine of limited atonement, empower evangelism rather than hinder it. Embracing these wonderful biblical truths allows one to boldly and clearly declare the good news of the gospel, knowing that the power is not in our presentation of it or in the audience’s ability to understand it or desire to believe it, but, instead, rests solely upon an all-powerful God who has determined to save people from every tribe, tongue and nation. Belief in an unlimited atonement, on the other hand, presents many logical and biblical problems. First of all, if the atonement was truly unlimited, then every person would be saved as all of their sins, including the sin of unbelief, would have been paid for by Christ on the cross. However, such universalism is clearly unbiblical, as the Bible is very clear that not all people are saved or will be saved. Therefore, both the Arminian and Calvinist believe in some sort of limited atonement. The Arminian limits the effectiveness of the atonement in saying Christ died for all people but not all people will be saved. His view of the atonement limits its power as it only makes salvation a possibility and does not actually save anyone. On the other hand, the Calvinist limits the intent of the atonement by stating that Christ’s atonement was for specific people (the elect) and that it completely secured the salvation of those whom He died for. So, all Christians believe in some sort of limited atonement. The question, then, is not whether the Bible teaches a limited atonement but how or in what sense the atonement is limited. Is the power of the atonement limited in that it only makes salvation a possibility, or is its power to save unlimited and it actually results in the salvation of those whom God intended to save (the elect, His sheep)? Does God do the limiting, or does man? Does God’s sovereign grace and purpose dictate the ultimate success or failure of the redemptive work of Christ, or does the will of man decide whether God’s intentions and purposes will be realized?

A major problem with unlimited atonement is that is makes redemption merely a potential or hypothetical act. An unlimited atonement means that Christ’s sacrifice is not effectual until the sinner does his part in believing. In this view, the sinner’s faith is the determining factor as to whether Christ’s atonement actually accomplishes anything. If the doctrine of unlimited atonement is true, then it has Christ dying for people the Father knew would not be saved and has Christ paying the penalty for the sins of people who would also have to pay the penalty for the same sin. In effect, it makes God unjust. Either God punishes people for the sins that Christ atoned for, or Christ’s atonement was somehow lacking in that it does not sufficiently cover all the sins of those for whom He died. The problem with this view becomes even clearer when one considers that at the time Christ died on the cross there were already sinners that had died who will face the wrath of God in hell for their sin. Logically, it makes no sense for God the Father to have Christ atone for the sins of people who were already suffering the wrath of God for their sin. Where is the justice in punishing Christ for the sins of those that were already being punished for their sins? Again, this also shows that an unlimited atonement cannot be a vicarious, substitutionary atonement.

Still another problem with an unlimited view of the atonement is that it demeans the righteousness of God and destroys the grounds of a believer’s assurance. An important aspect of a believer’s assurance is that God is righteous and that He will not nor cannot punish sin twice. Therefore, the sin that is covered by Christ’s blood can never be charged to the sinner’s account. Yet that is what a universal atonement leads to. Christ is punished for the sins of those that are not saved, and then they are also punished in hell for the same sins.

Unlimited atonement says that, while Christ does a great deal to bring salvation to His people, His death on the cross did not actually secure that salvation for anyone. Christ’s death is not sufficient in and of itself to save lost people, and, in order for His atoning work to be effective, there is a requirement that sinners themselves must meet. That requirement is faith. For man to be saved, he must add his faith to Christ’s atoning work on the cross. Therefore, the effectiveness of the atonement is limited by man’s faith or lack thereof. On the other hand, limited atonement believes that Christ’s death and resurrection actually secures the salvation of His people. While God does require faith of His people, Christ’s death even paid for the sin of our unbelief, and, therefore, His death meets all requirements for our salvation and provides everything necessary to secure the salvation of God’s people including the faith to believe. That is true unconditional love, a salvation that is by grace alone in Christ alone. Christ plus nothing equals salvation—an atonement so sufficient that it secures everything necessary for salvation, including the faith that God gives us to believe (Ephesians 2:8).

Limited atonement, like all of the doctrines of grace, upholds and glorifies the unity of the triune Godhead as Father, Son and Holy Spirit all work in unison for the purpose of salvation. These doctrines build upon one another. The doctrine of total depravity establishes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of unregenerate man and leaves one with the question “Who can be saved?” The doctrine of unconditional election then answers the question by declaring God’s sovereign choice in choosing to save people despite their depravity and based solely on God’s sovereign choice to redeem for Himself people from every tribe, tongue and nation. Next, the doctrine of limited atonement explains how God can be perfectly just and yet redeem those sinful people and reconcile them to Himself. The only solution to the depravity of man was for God to provide a Redeemer who would act as their substitute and suffer the wrath of God for their sins. He did this in the death of Christ, who, having been crucified, completely and totally “canceled out the certificate of debt…having nailed it to the cross” (Colossians 2:13-14). That leads to another question: how can a spiritually dead sinner who is hostile to God have faith in the atoning work of Christ on the cross? That question is answered by the doctrine of grace that is known as irresistible grace, the “I” in the acronym TULIP.

 

[the_human_being]

OP, God should let you into Heaven for the same reason you're parents let you in their house. You belong to them and they love you, and it is where you belong.
When you re-pent, you return to the highest level, (as in penthouse) where we belong.

And Max, good post:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Grace is an unmerited (unearned) gift from God. It's God sovereign will that he gives the gift of mercy (salvation) to some people by bringing them to faith in Jesus Christ.

What is salvation?
-Saved from.

Saved from what?
-Punishment for sins in Hell.

Why must God punish sinners for their sins?
-It's God's will.

Why does God will it be so?
-It's due to the character of God.

What is God's character?
-One of God's perfect infinite characteristics is Holy Justice.

What is Holy Justice?
-God's perfect justice. It means God wills punishment for all sins. All sins are punished according to what the sins are.

If God wills punishment for all sins, no matter how small, how can he grants salvation to sinners?
-Jesus Christ took the punishment for the sins of all who have faith in him, as required by God's Holy Justice, on the cross.

Who is granted this gift of salvation by the grace of God?
-It's God's will that he elects some sinners to grant the gift of mercy. These sinners are called the elect. The saints is another way to call these sinners.

Why does God grant salvation to only some sinners, not all sinners?
-Mercy is a gift that is not required to be given. Mercy is contrasted to justice. Justice is required action from God.

The only thing I would add is that the gift of salvation is offered to all. I know that because Christ left no one out. He removed the sins of the world, the original, and those we have added to it. Any one can come to the foot of the cross and receive redemption. Not all will, but all have the opportunity.

God has to be 100% just as in justice, and 100% merciful as in forgiveness and favor we don't deserve. Through Christ, God accomplished the first task. That role, the one of Judge, has been fulfilled for all of those who accept the propitiation Christ offers, which in turn allows God to revert to the role of the loving Father He started out as, who is quick to forgive and cover His children.
Thank Christ for taking our place in court, and allowing our sentence to be carried out on Him.
Accept Christ's gift, and re-pent. To the highest level. Where we belong, as children of the Most High, and co-heirs with our Savior, Jesus.

Thank you. It's true that the gift of salvation is offered to all sinners, if only they would accept it. However, being sinners they love sins and if left to their own will, they will never have faith in Jesus Christ.

God, being merciful, chooses to bring the elect to faith in Jesus Christ. It's all due to God that the saints come to faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Mercy is not granted to everyone. If it is given to all, then mercy would be justice.

A good way to think about mercy is to imagine a Presidential pardon for a convicted criminal. That is an act of mercy by the President. It's absurd to think that mercy requires that the President pardons all criminal.

Kind of turning a blind eye to the scriptures aren't we?

Rom_11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Joh_12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

1Jn_2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Joh_4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

1Jn_4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

1Ti_2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti_4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

God is only calling a few in this present age. It will be the job of the resurrected saints to finally teach the truth to all mankind during Christ's Kingdom reign when Satan is locked away and will have no influence. The playing field will be again equal to that time before Satan's appearance in the Garden. Once all mankind has been taught the truth, Satan will be freed again and each man or woman will then make their final decision.

Jesus Christ is the savior of all men who have faith in Him as their Lord and Savior. However, a lot of men will not accept this gift of salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is also savior of the world, meaning He will make the sinful world into a new sinless world.

If you read the scriptures as a whole, all means all the elect.

"All MEN' means all the elect? Really?? LOL!

How about answering 1 Timothy 4:10 for me then.

 

[the_human_being]

Limited atonement is it biblical

Question: "Limited atonement—is it biblical?"

Answer: “Limited atonement” is a term that is used to summarize what the Bible teaches about the purpose for Christ’s death on the cross and what His life, death and resurrection accomplished. It is the third letter of the acronym TULIP, which is commonly used to explain what are known as the five points of Calvinism, also known as the doctrines of grace. The doctrine of limited atonement is clearly the most controversial and maybe even the most misunderstood of all the doctrines of grace. Because the name can confuse people and cause them to have wrong ideas about what is meant, some people prefer to use terms like “particular redemption,” “definite redemption,” “actual atonement,” or “intentional atonement.” These terms correctly focus on the fact that the Bible reveals Jesus’ death on the cross was intentional and had a definite purpose that it succeeded in accomplishing. Yet, like all of the doctrines of grace, what is important is not the name that is assigned to the doctrine but how accurately the doctrine summarizes what the Bible teaches about the nature and purpose of Jesus’ sacrificial death on the cross.

The doctrine of limited atonement affirms that the Bible teaches Christ’s atoning work on the cross was done with a definite purpose in mind—to redeem for God people from every tribe, tongue and nation (Revelation 5:9). Jesus died, according to Matthew 1:21, to “save His people from their sins.” This truth is seen in many passages throughout Scripture. In John 10:15, we see that He lays “down His life for the sheep.” Who are the sheep? They are the people chosen by God from before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4). These are the same ones Jesus said were given to Him by the Father in order that He would fulfill the Father’s will by losing none of them and by raising all of them up in the last day (John 6:37-40). The truth that Jesus came for this specific reason is seen in both the Old and New Testaments. One of the greatest passages on the atonement in the Old Testament is Isaiah 53. In this passage alone, we see that He was “stricken for the transgression of God’s people” (Isaiah 53:8); that He would “justify many” because “He shall bear their iniquities” (Isaiah 53:11); and that He indeed “bore the sin of many” (Isaiah 53:12). These verses and many others talk about an atonement that was specific in whom it covered (God’s people), was substitutionary in nature (He actually bore their sins on the cross), and actually accomplished what God intended it to do (justify many). Clearly, here is a picture of an intentional, definite atonement. Christ died not simply to make justification a possibility but to actually justify those He died for. He died to save them, not to make them savable.

The doctrine of limited atonement also recognizes that the Bible teaches Jesus’ death on the cross was a substitutionary atonement for sins. Many theologians use the word “vicarious” to describe Christ’s atonement. This word means “acting on behalf of” or “representing another” and is used to describe “something performed or suffered by one person with the results accruing to the benefit or advantage of another.” The vicarious atonement of Christ means He was acting as a representative for a specific group of people (the elect) who would receive a direct benefit (salvation) as the result of His death. This concept is clearly seen in 2 Corinthians 5 “He (God the Father) made Him (Christ) who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” If Jesus actually stood in my place and bore my sin on the cross as the Bible teaches, then I can never be punished for that sin. In order for Christ’s atonement to truly be a substitutionary or vicarious atonement, then it must actually secure a real salvation for all for whom Christ died. If the atonement only makes salvation a possibility, then it cannot be a vicarious atonement. If Christ acted as a real and true substitute for those for whom He died, then all for whom He died will be saved. To say that Christ died a vicarious death in the place of all sinners but that not all sinners will be saved is a contradiction.

Four different words or aspects of the atonement are clearly seen in Scripture, and each one helps us understand the nature and extent of the atonement. These four words are ransom, reconciliation, propitiation and substitute. These four aspects of Christ’s atonement all speak of Christ as having actually accomplished something in His death. A study of these four terms in their biblical contexts leads to the obvious conclusion that one cannot hold to a true universal atonement without also requiring universal salvation. If one holds to an unlimited atonement while denying universal salvation, one ends up with a redemption that leaves men not totally free or actually redeemed, a reconciliation that leaves men still estranged from God, a propitiation that leaves men still under the wrath of God, and a substitutionary death that still makes the sinner himself help pay the debt of his sin. All of these aspects of the atoning work of Christ then become nothing more than a possibility that relies upon man to make them a reality.

But that is not what the Bible teaches. It teaches that those who are redeemed by Christ are truly free and their debt has been fully paid. It teaches that those who are reconciled to God are actually reconciled and the wall of separation that existed between them and God has been torn down (Colossians 2:14). It teaches that Christ’s death on the cross was a sacrifice that fully satisfied the wrath of God. It also teaches that Christ was indeed a substitute, a kinsmen redeemer, who acted in place of and on behalf of His people. When Jesus died on the cross, He said, “It is finished” (John 19:30), and the Greek word translated “finished” is teleō, which was used to indicate that a debt had been paid in full. And that is exactly what Jesus accomplished on the cross. “When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross” (Colossians 2:13-14).

One common misunderstanding about the doctrine of limited atonement is that this view somehow lessens or limits the value of the atonement of Christ. Yet exactly the opposite is true. Limited atonement correctly recognizes that Christ’s death was of infinite value and lacking in nothing. In fact, it is of such value that, had God so willed, Christ’s death could have saved every member of the human race. Christ would not have had to suffer any more or do anything different to save every human who ever lived than He did in securing the salvation of the elect. But that was not God’s purpose in sending Christ to the cross. God’s purpose in the atonement was that Jesus would secure forever the salvation of those the Father had given to Him (Hebrews 7:25). Therefore, while Christ’s atonement was limited in its intent or purpose, it was unlimited in its power.

Another common misunderstanding about the doctrine of limited atonement is that it somehow lessens or diminishes the love of God for humanity. Yet, again, exactly the opposite is true. Of all of the doctrines of grace, the doctrine of limited atonement, when correctly understood, magnifies the love of God; it does not diminish it. Limited atonement reinforces the intensive love of God that is revealed in the Bible. God loves His people with a love that saves them from their sin, as opposed to the love of the unlimited atonement view that sees God’s love as being more general in nature. In the unlimited atonement view, He loves everyone in general but saves no one in particular and, in fact, leaves the matter of their salvation up to them. Which is more loving, a love that actually saves people or a love that makes salvation “possible” to those who are dead in trespasses and sins and unable to choose God?

One of the main arguments used against limited atonement is that, if Christ did not atone for the sins of everybody in the world and if God only intended to save the elect, how do you explain the numerous biblical passages that indicate the free offer of the gospel to “whosoever will come?” How can God offer salvation to all, including those whom He has not elected or foreordained to be saved? How can we understand the paradox that occurs because the Bible teaches God intends that only the elect will be saved, yet, on the other hand, the Bible also unequivocally declares that God freely and sincerely offers salvation to everyone who will believe? (Ezekiel 33:11; Isaiah 45:22; 55:1; Matthew 11:28; 23:37; 2 Peter 3:9; Revelation 22:17) The solution to this paradox is simply an acknowledgment of all that the Bible teaches. 1) The call of the gospel is universal in the sense that anybody that hears it and believes in it will be saved. 2) Because everyone is dead in trespasses and sin, no one will believe the gospel and respond in faith unless God first makes those who are dead in their trespasses and sins alive (Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that “whosoever believes” will have eternal life and then explains why some believe and some don’t.

Another argument against limited atonement points to the passages in the Bible that speak of Christ’s atonement in a more general or unlimited sense. For example, in 1 John 2:2 John says that Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the “whole world.” Likewise, in John 4:42 Jesus is called the “Savior of the world” and in John 1:29 is said to “take way the sin of the world.” Other verses that seem to indicate an unlimited view of the atonement include 2 Corinthians 5:14-15: “He died for all” and 1 Timothy 2:6: “He gave Himself a ransom for all” (although Matthew 20:28 and Mark 10:45 say Christ came to “give His life a ransom for many”). Those who believe in unlimited atonement use such verses to make the point that, if Christ died for all and takes away the sins of the world, then His atonement cannot be limited to only the elect. However, these verses are easily reconciled with the many other verses that support the doctrine of limited atonement simply by recognizing that often the Bible uses the words “world” or “all” in a limited sense. They do not automatically mean “every individual in the entire world.” This is evident when just a few verses are considered. In Luke 2:1 it is recorded that a “decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered,” and Luke 2:3 says, “So all went to be registered everyone to his own city.” But, clearly, it is not talking about every individual in the whole world. Caesar’s decree did not apply to the Japanese, Chinese or countless other people throughout the world.

Similarly, the Pharisees, being dismayed at Jesus’ growing popularity said, “Look how the whole world has gone after Him!” Did every single person in the world follow Jesus? Or was the “world” limited to a small area of Palestine in which Jesus preached?

So, it should be readily apparent that the phrase “all” or “all the world” does not necessarily mean every individual. Understanding that basic fact allows one to consider each of these seemingly universal passages in their contexts, and, when that is done, it becomes apparent that they do not present any conflict with the doctrine of limited atonement.

Yet another argument against limited atonement is that it is a hindrance to the preaching of the gospel and to evangelism. Those that use this argument will say that if an evangelist cannot say, “Christ died for you,” then his effectiveness in presenting the gospel will be limited. Or they will say that, if only the elect will be saved, why should the gospel be preached at all? Once again, these objections are easily dealt with. The gospel is to be preached to everyone because it is the power of God to salvation for all who believe (Romans 1:16), and it is the means that God has ordained by which the elect will be saved (Romans 10:14-17). Also, the evangelist does not need to tell the unbeliever that “Christ died for your sins,” specifically. All he needs to proclaim is that Christ died to pay the penalty for sin and provide a way for sinners to be reconciled to a holy God. Believe in Him, and you will be saved.

The doctrines of grace, and specifically the doctrine of limited atonement, empower evangelism rather than hinder it. Embracing these wonderful biblical truths allows one to boldly and clearly declare the good news of the gospel, knowing that the power is not in our presentation of it or in the audience’s ability to understand it or desire to believe it, but, instead, rests solely upon an all-powerful God who has determined to save people from every tribe, tongue and nation. Belief in an unlimited atonement, on the other hand, presents many logical and biblical problems. First of all, if the atonement was truly unlimited, then every person would be saved as all of their sins, including the sin of unbelief, would have been paid for by Christ on the cross. However, such universalism is clearly unbiblical, as the Bible is very clear that not all people are saved or will be saved. Therefore, both the Arminian and Calvinist believe in some sort of limited atonement. The Arminian limits the effectiveness of the atonement in saying Christ died for all people but not all people will be saved. His view of the atonement limits its power as it only makes salvation a possibility and does not actually save anyone. On the other hand, the Calvinist limits the intent of the atonement by stating that Christ’s atonement was for specific people (the elect) and that it completely secured the salvation of those whom He died for. So, all Christians believe in some sort of limited atonement. The question, then, is not whether the Bible teaches a limited atonement but how or in what sense the atonement is limited. Is the power of the atonement limited in that it only makes salvation a possibility, or is its power to save unlimited and it actually results in the salvation of those whom God intended to save (the elect, His sheep)? Does God do the limiting, or does man? Does God’s sovereign grace and purpose dictate the ultimate success or failure of the redemptive work of Christ, or does the will of man decide whether God’s intentions and purposes will be realized?

A major problem with unlimited atonement is that is makes redemption merely a potential or hypothetical act. An unlimited atonement means that Christ’s sacrifice is not effectual until the sinner does his part in believing. In this view, the sinner’s faith is the determining factor as to whether Christ’s atonement actually accomplishes anything. If the doctrine of unlimited atonement is true, then it has Christ dying for people the Father knew would not be saved and has Christ paying the penalty for the sins of people who would also have to pay the penalty for the same sin. In effect, it makes God unjust. Either God punishes people for the sins that Christ atoned for, or Christ’s atonement was somehow lacking in that it does not sufficiently cover all the sins of those for whom He died. The problem with this view becomes even clearer when one considers that at the time Christ died on the cross there were already sinners that had died who will face the wrath of God in hell for their sin. Logically, it makes no sense for God the Father to have Christ atone for the sins of people who were already suffering the wrath of God for their sin. Where is the justice in punishing Christ for the sins of those that were already being punished for their sins? Again, this also shows that an unlimited atonement cannot be a vicarious, substitutionary atonement.

Still another problem with an unlimited view of the atonement is that it demeans the righteousness of God and destroys the grounds of a believer’s assurance. An important aspect of a believer’s assurance is that God is righteous and that He will not nor cannot punish sin twice. Therefore, the sin that is covered by Christ’s blood can never be charged to the sinner’s account. Yet that is what a universal atonement leads to. Christ is punished for the sins of those that are not saved, and then they are also punished in hell for the same sins.

Unlimited atonement says that, while Christ does a great deal to bring salvation to His people, His death on the cross did not actually secure that salvation for anyone. Christ’s death is not sufficient in and of itself to save lost people, and, in order for His atoning work to be effective, there is a requirement that sinners themselves must meet. That requirement is faith. For man to be saved, he must add his faith to Christ’s atoning work on the cross. Therefore, the effectiveness of the atonement is limited by man’s faith or lack thereof. On the other hand, limited atonement believes that Christ’s death and resurrection actually secures the salvation of His people. While God does require faith of His people, Christ’s death even paid for the sin of our unbelief, and, therefore, His death meets all requirements for our salvation and provides everything necessary to secure the salvation of God’s people including the faith to believe. That is true unconditional love, a salvation that is by grace alone in Christ alone. Christ plus nothing equals salvation—an atonement so sufficient that it secures everything necessary for salvation, including the faith that God gives us to believe (Ephesians 2:8).

Limited atonement, like all of the doctrines of grace, upholds and glorifies the unity of the triune Godhead as Father, Son and Holy Spirit all work in unison for the purpose of salvation. These doctrines build upon one another. The doctrine of total depravity establishes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of unregenerate man and leaves one with the question “Who can be saved?” The doctrine of unconditional election then answers the question by declaring God’s sovereign choice in choosing to save people despite their depravity and based solely on God’s sovereign choice to redeem for Himself people from every tribe, tongue and nation. Next, the doctrine of limited atonement explains how God can be perfectly just and yet redeem those sinful people and reconcile them to Himself. The only solution to the depravity of man was for God to provide a Redeemer who would act as their substitute and suffer the wrath of God for their sins. He did this in the death of Christ, who, having been crucified, completely and totally “canceled out the certificate of debt…having nailed it to the cross” (Colossians 2:13-14). That leads to another question: how can a spiritually dead sinner who is hostile to God have faith in the atoning work of Christ on the cross? That question is answered by the doctrine of grace that is known as irresistible grace, the “I” in the acronym TULIP.

This is one doctrine. There is another doctrine of full atonement. Get away from doctrines and read what the Bible actually says. You deny too many plain and easily understood scriptures.

Here's a good link for you: the christian doctrine of universal salvation

 

[MaxGrit]

This is one doctrine. There is another doctrine of full atonement. Get away from doctrines and read what the Bible actually says.

The Holy Spirit is my teacher. He teaches me truths in the Word of God.

Full atonement is a false doctrine. I definitely understand why people are attracted to the false doctrine. I would fully support it if it was a true doctrine, too bad it's wrong.

 

[the_human_being]

This is one doctrine. There is another doctrine of full atonement. Get away from doctrines and read what the Bible actually says.

The Holy Spirit is my teacher. He teaches me truths in the Word of God.

Full atonement is a false doctrine. I definitely understand why people are attracted to the false doctrine. I would fully support it if it was a true doctrine, too bad it's wrong.

Right. Especially when one chooses to deny plain and simple scripture. I suppose it is also your claim that only the election have tongues and knees?

Isa_45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Rom_14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Php_2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

There is just simply too much scripture for sensible people to ignore. You and other fundamentalists simply declare to the world that Christ has already failed and failed miserably in the very mission the Father sent Him to accomplish. Shame on your lack of faith in our Savior.

 

[sealybobo]

He probably shouldn't. I certainly don't deserve it. I am a sinner, and even a hypocrite at times. I don't mean to be, but my flesh is weak...... however I do have the HS that slaps me up side of the head when I do wrong, thus getting my attention, thus allowing me to repent of my sin right then and there,,,,,,I do try not to repeat my sin, but still, in my imperfections, I find myself in that same pickle again....if not a repeat offender, then a new temptation or omission, or worldly thought or selfish deed..

However, I truly have accepted Christ as Lord of my life, and I know that no matter what,,,,I cannot be removed from my Fathers hand, but I also know that I am nothing more than filthy rags in my sin, and will have some major splainin' to do if I have unconfessed sin in my life. I do confess my sins constantly it seems, and pray that when my time in this world is through, I will be faced to face with my Lord, and hear him say "Well done my good and faithful servant " rather than " Depart from me, for I never knew you....."

So, although I am undeserving, because I am truly born again, and I love my Lord, I know He will keep His promise, and I will enter the Kingdom when I leave this world,,,, but I will never be good enough to deserve it....Never !!

Geez what guilt. Name some of your best/worst sins please. CONFESS! Since you've been forgiven and that's all in the past, let us know what sins you did.

Oh yea, and admit you will do them again too. Luckily you have a get out of hell free card with Jesus.

 

[MaxGrit]

OP, God should let you into Heaven for the same reason you're parents let you in their house. You belong to them and they love you, and it is where you belong.
When you re-pent, you return to the highest level, (as in penthouse) where we belong.

And Max, good post:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Grace is an unmerited (unearned) gift from God. It's God sovereign will that he gives the gift of mercy (salvation) to some people by bringing them to faith in Jesus Christ.

What is salvation?
-Saved from.

Saved from what?
-Punishment for sins in Hell.

Why must God punish sinners for their sins?
-It's God's will.

Why does God will it be so?
-It's due to the character of God.

What is God's character?
-One of God's perfect infinite characteristics is Holy Justice.

What is Holy Justice?
-God's perfect justice. It means God wills punishment for all sins. All sins are punished according to what the sins are.

If God wills punishment for all sins, no matter how small, how can he grants salvation to sinners?
-Jesus Christ took the punishment for the sins of all who have faith in him, as required by God's Holy Justice, on the cross.

Who is granted this gift of salvation by the grace of God?
-It's God's will that he elects some sinners to grant the gift of mercy. These sinners are called the elect. The saints is another way to call these sinners.

Why does God grant salvation to only some sinners, not all sinners?
-Mercy is a gift that is not required to be given. Mercy is contrasted to justice. Justice is required action from God.

The only thing I would add is that the gift of salvation is offered to all. I know that because Christ left no one out. He removed the sins of the world, the original, and those we have added to it. Any one can come to the foot of the cross and receive redemption. Not all will, but all have the opportunity.

God has to be 100% just as in justice, and 100% merciful as in forgiveness and favor we don't deserve. Through Christ, God accomplished the first task. That role, the one of Judge, has been fulfilled for all of those who accept the propitiation Christ offers, which in turn allows God to revert to the role of the loving Father He started out as, who is quick to forgive and cover His children.
Thank Christ for taking our place in court, and allowing our sentence to be carried out on Him.
Accept Christ's gift, and re-pent. To the highest level. Where we belong, as children of the Most High, and co-heirs with our Savior, Jesus.

Thank you. It's true that the gift of salvation is offered to all sinners, if only they would accept it. However, being sinners they love sins and if left to their own will, they will never have faith in Jesus Christ.

God, being merciful, chooses to bring the elect to faith in Jesus Christ. It's all due to God that the saints come to faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Mercy is not granted to everyone. If it is given to all, then mercy would be justice.

A good way to think about mercy is to imagine a Presidential pardon for a convicted criminal. That is an act of mercy by the President. It's absurd to think that mercy requires that the President pardons all criminal.

Kind of turning a blind eye to the scriptures aren't we?

Rom_11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Joh_12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

1Jn_2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Joh_4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

1Jn_4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

1Ti_2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti_4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

God is only calling a few in this present age. It will be the job of the resurrected saints to finally teach the truth to all mankind during Christ's Kingdom reign when Satan is locked away and will have no influence. The playing field will be again equal to that time before Satan's appearance in the Garden. Once all mankind has been taught the truth, Satan will be freed again and each man or woman will then make their final decision.

Jesus Christ is the savior of all men who have faith in Him as their Lord and Savior. However, a lot of men will not accept this gift of salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is also savior of the world, meaning He will make the sinful world into a new sinless world.

If you read the scriptures as a whole, all means all the elect.

"All MEN' means all the elect? Really?? LOL!

How about answering 1 Timothy 4:10 for me then.

". . . we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe."

The living God is Jesus Christ, who is the Savior of all people. Jesus Christ has the capacity to save all people, however this doesn't mean all people will be saved. Paul is simply saying that all people with faith in Jesus Christ to be their Lord and Savior will be saved.

The beginning of 1 Tim 4 clearly states that the Holy Spirit informed Paul that people will depart from the faith in the later times. These people won't be saved.



1 Timothy 4
English Standard Version (ESV)

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.

If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed. Have nothing to do with irreverent, silly myths. Rather train yourself for godliness; for while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come. The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance. For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

Command and teach these things. Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching. Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you. Practice these things, immerse yourself in them, so that all may see your progress. Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

 

[MaxGrit]

This is one doctrine. There is another doctrine of full atonement. Get away from doctrines and read what the Bible actually says.

The Holy Spirit is my teacher. He teaches me truths in the Word of God.

Full atonement is a false doctrine. I definitely understand why people are attracted to the false doctrine. I would fully support it if it was a true doctrine, too bad it's wrong.

Right. Especially when one chooses to deny plain and simple scripture. I suppose it is also your claim that only the election have tongues and knees?

Isa_45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Rom_14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Php_2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

There is just simply too much scripture for sensible people to ignore. You and other fundamentalists simply declare to the world that Christ has already failed and failed miserably in the very mission the Father sent Him to accomplish. Shame on your lack of faith in our Savior.

That's simply saying that all will bow before Jesus Christ and confess to God. There's no mention that all of those people are saved.

I also think it would be great if everyone will be saved. If only it is true. Too bad it's wrong. I know how much you want total atonement to be true. You are letting your love for mankind come before your love for God.

Jesus Christ did not fail. His task was accomplished on the cross. It was predestined, before creation, that all the elect will be saved by the blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

He probably shouldn't. I certainly don't deserve it. I am a sinner, and even a hypocrite at times. I don't mean to be, but my flesh is weak...... however I do have the HS that slaps me up side of the head when I do wrong, thus getting my attention, thus allowing me to repent of my sin right then and there,,,,,,I do try not to repeat my sin, but still, in my imperfections, I find myself in that same pickle again....if not a repeat offender, then a new temptation or omission, or worldly thought or selfish deed..

However, I truly have accepted Christ as Lord of my life, and I know that no matter what,,,,I cannot be removed from my Fathers hand, but I also know that I am nothing more than filthy rags in my sin, and will have some major splainin' to do if I have unconfessed sin in my life. I do confess my sins constantly it seems, and pray that when my time in this world is through, I will be faced to face with my Lord, and hear him say "Well done my good and faithful servant " rather than " Depart from me, for I never knew you....."

So, although I am undeserving, because I am truly born again, and I love my Lord, I know He will keep His promise, and I will enter the Kingdom when I leave this world,,,, but I will never be good enough to deserve it....Never !!

Geez what guilt. Name some of your best/worst sins please. CONFESS! Since you've been forgiven and that's all in the past, let us know what sins you did.

Oh yea, and admit you will do them again too. Luckily you have a get out of hell free card with Jesus.

Convenient, that.

===

What's that quote about not wanting to join any organization who would have me?

Since heaven is just another imaginary human construct, it won't matter but considering who else would be there, I'll pass.

 

[MaxGrit]

I know it's difficult to accept the reality that, without faith in Jesus Christ, a lot of people you love will go to Hell.

Very difficult indeed. Just remember that the main commandment is to love God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your might.

 

[September]

I know it's difficult to accept the reality that, without faith in Jesus Christ, a lot of people you love will go to Hell.

Very difficult indeed. Just remember that the main commandment is to love God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your might.

Hypothetical question-

So lets say a human only worships YHWH. Lets say a human was baptized and accepted Jesus as their "personal Lord and Savior."

According to your beliefs-

This person can explore any religion after that if they wish, right? And still go to "Heaven"? As long as they worship only God? Why should they must remain within the shackles of some specific Christian demonination, when there is so much to learn spiritually from other religions?
​

 

[the_human_being]

OP, God should let you into Heaven for the same reason you're parents let you in their house. You belong to them and they love you, and it is where you belong.
When you re-pent, you return to the highest level, (as in penthouse) where we belong.

And Max, good post:

The only thing I would add is that the gift of salvation is offered to all. I know that because Christ left no one out. He removed the sins of the world, the original, and those we have added to it. Any one can come to the foot of the cross and receive redemption. Not all will, but all have the opportunity.

God has to be 100% just as in justice, and 100% merciful as in forgiveness and favor we don't deserve. Through Christ, God accomplished the first task. That role, the one of Judge, has been fulfilled for all of those who accept the propitiation Christ offers, which in turn allows God to revert to the role of the loving Father He started out as, who is quick to forgive and cover His children.
Thank Christ for taking our place in court, and allowing our sentence to be carried out on Him.
Accept Christ's gift, and re-pent. To the highest level. Where we belong, as children of the Most High, and co-heirs with our Savior, Jesus.

Thank you. It's true that the gift of salvation is offered to all sinners, if only they would accept it. However, being sinners they love sins and if left to their own will, they will never have faith in Jesus Christ.

God, being merciful, chooses to bring the elect to faith in Jesus Christ. It's all due to God that the saints come to faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Mercy is not granted to everyone. If it is given to all, then mercy would be justice.

A good way to think about mercy is to imagine a Presidential pardon for a convicted criminal. That is an act of mercy by the President. It's absurd to think that mercy requires that the President pardons all criminal.

Kind of turning a blind eye to the scriptures aren't we?

Rom_11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Joh_12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

1Jn_2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Joh_4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

1Jn_4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

1Ti_2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti_4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

God is only calling a few in this present age. It will be the job of the resurrected saints to finally teach the truth to all mankind during Christ's Kingdom reign when Satan is locked away and will have no influence. The playing field will be again equal to that time before Satan's appearance in the Garden. Once all mankind has been taught the truth, Satan will be freed again and each man or woman will then make their final decision.

Jesus Christ is the savior of all men who have faith in Him as their Lord and Savior. However, a lot of men will not accept this gift of salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is also savior of the world, meaning He will make the sinful world into a new sinless world.

If you read the scriptures as a whole, all means all the elect.

"All MEN' means all the elect? Really?? LOL!

How about answering 1 Timothy 4:10 for me then.

". . . we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe."

The living God is Jesus Christ, who is the Savior of all people. Jesus Christ has the capacity to save all people, however this doesn't mean all people will be saved. Paul is simply saying that all people with faith in Jesus Christ to be their Lord and Savior will be saved.

The beginning of 1 Tim 4 clearly states that the Holy Spirit informed Paul that people will depart from the faith in the later times. These people won't be saved.



1 Timothy 4
English Standard Version (ESV)

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.

If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed. Have nothing to do with irreverent, silly myths. Rather train yourself for godliness; for while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come. The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance. For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

Command and teach these things. Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching. Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you. Practice these things, immerse yourself in them, so that all may see your progress. Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

You failed to address 4:10. Read it. It said all but especially those that believe. You are twisting what is so very plain and easy to see and understand. At least be honest. The difference between you and me is that you claim Christ has already failed and I say it ain't over yet.

 

[the_human_being]

I know it's difficult to accept the reality that, without faith in Jesus Christ, a lot of people you love will go to Hell.

Very difficult indeed. Just remember that the main commandment is to love God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your might.

There is actually little difference between you fundies and the atheists. You only believe some of the Bible while the atheists believe none of the Bible.

 

[the_human_being]

This is one doctrine. There is another doctrine of full atonement. Get away from doctrines and read what the Bible actually says.

The Holy Spirit is my teacher. He teaches me truths in the Word of God.

Full atonement is a false doctrine. I definitely understand why people are attracted to the false doctrine. I would fully support it if it was a true doctrine, too bad it's wrong.

Right. Especially when one chooses to deny plain and simple scripture. I suppose it is also your claim that only the election have tongues and knees?

Isa_45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Rom_14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Php_2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

There is just simply too much scripture for sensible people to ignore. You and other fundamentalists simply declare to the world that Christ has already failed and failed miserably in the very mission the Father sent Him to accomplish. Shame on your lack of faith in our Savior.

That's simply saying that all will bow before Jesus Christ and confess to God. There's no mention that all of those people are saved.

I also think it would be great if everyone will be saved. If only it is true. Too bad it's wrong. I know how much you want total atonement to be true. You are letting your love for mankind come before your love for God.

Jesus Christ did not fail. His task was accomplished on the cross. It was predestined, before creation, that all the elect will be saved by the blood of Jesus Christ.

Ignoring the scripture that says "will have all men to be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth"? You really do take the cake. You've already stated He failed in His mission. The Father sent Him to be the savior of the world, not just the savior of a few. Quit denying the scriptures.

 

[the_human_being]

This is one doctrine. There is another doctrine of full atonement. Get away from doctrines and read what the Bible actually says.

The Holy Spirit is my teacher. He teaches me truths in the Word of God.

Full atonement is a false doctrine. I definitely understand why people are attracted to the false doctrine. I would fully support it if it was a true doctrine, too bad it's wrong.

Then by all means prove it wrong. You claim the scriptures I posted were taken out of context. Prove it.
You say full atonement is a false doctrine. Prove it.
Cop-outs and statements don't have any weight.

 

[MaxGrit]

I know it's difficult to accept the reality that, without faith in Jesus Christ, a lot of people you love will go to Hell.

Very difficult indeed. Just remember that the main commandment is to love God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your might.

Hypothetical question-

So lets say a human only worships YHWH. Lets say a human was baptized and accepted Jesus as their "personal Lord and Savior."

According to your beliefs-

This person can explore any religion after that if they wish, right? And still go to "Heaven"? As long as they worship only God? Why should they must remain within the shackles of some specific Christian denomination, when there is so much to learn spiritually from other religions?
​

The answer is dependent on various factors:

1) Who does YHWH refers to?

For example, you worship a demon that goes by the name YHWH.

2) How was this human baptized?
-By Water?
-By Spirit?

3) Which Jesus did they accept as their Lord and Savior?
-Jesus Christ, God the Son
-Jesus Christ fakes (antichrists)

Lets assume this human worship the one true eternal Trinitarian God, I Am. Baptism was by the Holy Spirit. Accept Jesus Christ, God the Son, as their Lord and Savior.

With these conditions, the human is free to explore other religions if he wants to learn about them. However, with the Holy Spirit as his teacher of truth, the human knows with certainty that all other religions are wrong. All of them teaches falsehood, no value in their false teachings, and nothing but loss spiritually.

 

[MaxGrit]

Thank you. It's true that the gift of salvation is offered to all sinners, if only they would accept it. However, being sinners they love sins and if left to their own will, they will never have faith in Jesus Christ.

God, being merciful, chooses to bring the elect to faith in Jesus Christ. It's all due to God that the saints come to faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Mercy is not granted to everyone. If it is given to all, then mercy would be justice.

A good way to think about mercy is to imagine a Presidential pardon for a convicted criminal. That is an act of mercy by the President. It's absurd to think that mercy requires that the President pardons all criminal.

Kind of turning a blind eye to the scriptures aren't we?

Rom_11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Joh_12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

1Jn_2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Joh_4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

1Jn_4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

1Ti_2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti_4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

God is only calling a few in this present age. It will be the job of the resurrected saints to finally teach the truth to all mankind during Christ's Kingdom reign when Satan is locked away and will have no influence. The playing field will be again equal to that time before Satan's appearance in the Garden. Once all mankind has been taught the truth, Satan will be freed again and each man or woman will then make their final decision.

Jesus Christ is the savior of all men who have faith in Him as their Lord and Savior. However, a lot of men will not accept this gift of salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is also savior of the world, meaning He will make the sinful world into a new sinless world.

If you read the scriptures as a whole, all means all the elect.

"All MEN' means all the elect? Really?? LOL!

How about answering 1 Timothy 4:10 for me then.

". . . we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe."

The living God is Jesus Christ, who is the Savior of all people. Jesus Christ has the capacity to save all people, however this doesn't mean all people will be saved. Paul is simply saying that all people with faith in Jesus Christ to be their Lord and Savior will be saved.

The beginning of 1 Tim 4 clearly states that the Holy Spirit informed Paul that people will depart from the faith in the later times. These people won't be saved.



1 Timothy 4
English Standard Version (ESV)

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.

If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed. Have nothing to do with irreverent, silly myths. Rather train yourself for godliness; for while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come. The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance. For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

Command and teach these things. Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching. Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you. Practice these things, immerse yourself in them, so that all may see your progress. Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

You failed to address 4:10. Read it. It said all but especially those that believe. You are twisting what is so very plain and easy to see and understand. At least be honest. The difference between you and me is that you claim Christ has already failed and I say it ain't over yet.

I already addressed it. The part, "especially those who believe" is stating how believers can already take comfort and know that they are already saved by Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ accomplished his task perfectly. All those predestined to election will be saved by Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit will witness to the truth of what I say.

 

[the_human_being]

Kind of turning a blind eye to the scriptures aren't we?

Rom_11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Joh_12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

1Jn_2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Joh_4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

1Jn_4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

1Ti_2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti_4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

God is only calling a few in this present age. It will be the job of the resurrected saints to finally teach the truth to all mankind during Christ's Kingdom reign when Satan is locked away and will have no influence. The playing field will be again equal to that time before Satan's appearance in the Garden. Once all mankind has been taught the truth, Satan will be freed again and each man or woman will then make their final decision.

Jesus Christ is the savior of all men who have faith in Him as their Lord and Savior. However, a lot of men will not accept this gift of salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is also savior of the world, meaning He will make the sinful world into a new sinless world.

If you read the scriptures as a whole, all means all the elect.

"All MEN' means all the elect? Really?? LOL!

How about answering 1 Timothy 4:10 for me then.

". . . we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe."

The living God is Jesus Christ, who is the Savior of all people. Jesus Christ has the capacity to save all people, however this doesn't mean all people will be saved. Paul is simply saying that all people with faith in Jesus Christ to be their Lord and Savior will be saved.

The beginning of 1 Tim 4 clearly states that the Holy Spirit informed Paul that people will depart from the faith in the later times. These people won't be saved.



1 Timothy 4
English Standard Version (ESV)

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.

If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed. Have nothing to do with irreverent, silly myths. Rather train yourself for godliness; for while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come. The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance. For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

Command and teach these things. Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching. Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you. Practice these things, immerse yourself in them, so that all may see your progress. Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

You failed to address 4:10. Read it. It said all but especially those that believe. You are twisting what is so very plain and easy to see and understand. At least be honest. The difference between you and me is that you claim Christ has already failed and I say it ain't over yet.

I already addressed it. The part, "especially those who believe" is stating how believers can already take comfort and know that they are already saved by Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ accomplished his task perfectly. All those predestined to election will be saved by Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit will witness to the truth of what I say.

If something inside you is condemning your brother, it is not the Holy Spirit. You'd best get rid of it. It is demonic. And you totally denied what the scripture plainly says again. A twelve-year old can understand what it clearly says.

Answer me this if you will, and please make some attempt to be honest: Why are you saved if you are? For what purpose? Why does God create some vessels to dishonor if He's going to send them off to some non-existent fiery hell because He created them to dishonor on purpose?

 

[MaxGrit]

Jesus Christ is the savior of all men who have faith in Him as their Lord and Savior. However, a lot of men will not accept this gift of salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is also savior of the world, meaning He will make the sinful world into a new sinless world.

If you read the scriptures as a whole, all means all the elect.

"All MEN' means all the elect? Really?? LOL!

How about answering 1 Timothy 4:10 for me then.

". . . we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe."

The living God is Jesus Christ, who is the Savior of all people. Jesus Christ has the capacity to save all people, however this doesn't mean all people will be saved. Paul is simply saying that all people with faith in Jesus Christ to be their Lord and Savior will be saved.

The beginning of 1 Tim 4 clearly states that the Holy Spirit informed Paul that people will depart from the faith in the later times. These people won't be saved.



1 Timothy 4
English Standard Version (ESV)

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.

If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed. Have nothing to do with irreverent, silly myths. Rather train yourself for godliness; for while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come. The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance. For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

Command and teach these things. Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching. Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you. Practice these things, immerse yourself in them, so that all may see your progress. Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

You failed to address 4:10. Read it. It said all but especially those that believe. You are twisting what is so very plain and easy to see and understand. At least be honest. The difference between you and me is that you claim Christ has already failed and I say it ain't over yet.

I already addressed it. The part, "especially those who believe" is stating how believers can already take comfort and know that they are already saved by Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ accomplished his task perfectly. All those predestined to election will be saved by Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit will witness to the truth of what I say.

If something inside you is condemning your brother, it is not the Holy Spirit. You'd best get rid of it. It is demonic. And you totally denied what the scripture plainly says again. A twelve-year old can understand what it clearly says.

Matthew 12 (ESV)

Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, “Can this be the Son of David?” But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons.” Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand. And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house. Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.