Why is gender-nonconformity bad? Alternatively, why must one's gender align with their sex?

[Cecilie1200]

That's where gender-nonconformity comes in, my friend. A misalignment between one's biology, and the personality traits that might otherwise be associated with that biology.

So . . . after decades of women fighting to be whomever they are, rather than being defined by narrow stereotypes, you're now telling us that those stereotypes are the ONLY definitions allowed? If my daughter is a tomboy who likes to wear jeans, climb trees, and play with trucks instead of wearing pink dresses and playing with dolls, she must be a boy? And if womanhood is the narrow box of superficial stereotypes, just how far out of those stereotypes can one go before one "must" be a man? If I like cooking and sewing, but I don't wear dresses or makeup, am I still a woman?

As a woman who grew up during the women's rights movement of the 70s, I am astonished to hear that what used to be (correctly, in my view) described as "being a complete and complex person" now being dismissed as "a misalignment" between what one's body is and what one "must" be.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Traits do not define a person.
That's bullshit.
That's allowing the culture to define you.


So try again with something else.

Yes! Thank you!

 

[Cecilie1200]

I don't deny it. I never said they don't have the right to post here, but they sure as hell are going to be called out for making claims if they aren't going to argue them.

I didn't explicitly address it, but here's where I accommodated that:

I stated that the accommodation of the gender-nonconforming should not extend to cases where biology does not offer them a distinct advantage. Sports are a case where biology may offer them a distinct advantage.

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Gender is completely and entirely the personality traits we associate with sex, not sex itself. Even if you use another word other than "gender" to define that, it doesn't change my argument at all.

Gender non-conformity is when you have a set of traits that do not conform with the traits traditionally assigned to one sex or another, and you desire to use another label (which I would argue should always be "male," "female," or "non-binary") to reflect the fact that your traits are, fairly undeniably, incongruent with the traits traditionally assigned to your sex.

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I'm sure they exist, but I've never met a transgender individual that "believes" they aren't the sex they were born as. They simply believe there's a misalignment between their biology and the cultural assumptions made about people with their biology.

I said nothing about you being required to do anything. I said it's irrational not to.

Also, where is there any pretending involved?

"they/them" can be singular. This is a grammatical feature.

How about if they respectfully, calmly, and maturely argue you on it? I've met transgenders that will throw tantrums, just like I've met many members of many groups that will throw tantrums, but they simply aren't the bulk.

Not too sure about that. Outside of sociology and psychology, where these topics are inherently relevant, I've never encountered professors "pushing" anything regarding transgenderism onto me. Unless you consider requiring me not to intentionally inflame others a form of "pushing" something onto me.

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If this goes against nature, humans have been going against nature for a really long time. Gender-nonconformity isn't a strictly modern thing.

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Not saying you claimed this, but just as an FYI, I'm not a leftist. Or a democrat, for that matter.

There is nothing biological that imposes a gender onto anyone, there most definitely is something biological that imposes one's own species.

Once again.

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Don't see too many big fancy words or loose theories. Every single one of these words I'm using existed well before I came along, or any of you. The only difference is how I combine them, perhaps, but that should be simple enough to grasp.

Alright. Would you like me to start listing cultures throughout history where transgenderism was socially accepted? Along with sources, of course.

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I'd partially agree, actually. Though, traits themselves are really quite relevant. A person is the (personality) traits that make them up, after all. Labels are what shouldn't define people, because labels are ways to group together different types of people and apply traits to them that may not universally comport. That's actually the basis of this argument. You really cannot get rid of the label, or at the very least I can't think of any historical example of a culture just deciding to get rid of a label, and removing all the traits associated with that label. Rather, this accommodates those people that don't conform with that label by making that label the choice of those that make it up.

Yeah, like most transgenders would recognize, the reason dysphoria occurs is because every aspect of culture is constantly putting pressure on you to let it define you. And throughout all of history, one of the strongest points of pressure has been in regards to gender, and the norms we associate with it.

You can say "ignore that pressure," but no group throughout history has just "ignored the pressure." That's not how people work, that's not how society works. Besides, even if we want to look at this from an individual perspective, this is a simple and rationally consistent way to relieve that pressure, and allow for the effort involved in manifesting oneself to be directed elsewhere.

Please be courteous enough to make one separate reply to each person, rather than these long, droning posts to half-a-dozen people at once.

 

[Cecilie1200]

“there is no secular reason not to accommodate the gender-nonconforming “

Yes there is. In certain situations there’s problems. In example the restroom. The LGBTQ seems to think that transgender males should pee in the ladies room because they identify as female. It’s argued that they aren’t interested in females so they are no threat. I disagree

1 how do you know the person is actually transgender and not some perv trying to get a free peek in the ladies room? You don’t

2 How do you know they aren’t a rapist or pedophile in drag? You don’t.

3 How do you know the transgender isn’t bisexual and just being a perv? You don’t.

Men have greater muscle mass so in general are physically stronger than women. That’s a big risk for a female to take just to go to the bathroom. Then you get into the mental effects this could have on rape victims it’s unacceptable.

SPORTS is another area. As mentioned above men have greater muscle mass. This doesn’t physically change just because you identify as a woman. This give the transgender male an unfair advantage over the biological females.

Transgender Karen’s. You look like a dude but you’re name is Tiffany. Don’t go off on me if I address you as miss or mam instead of sir. Your confusing sexual orientation is not my problem. There’s a female lawyer in my town who dresses like a dude but still addresses herself as female. You can’t get offended over an honest mistake.

I have a good "secular reason not to accommodate the gender-nonconforming". How about it's incredibly offensive to me as a woman to have a bunch of men treating one of the most integral parts of my identity as a club they're trying to force membership to, and arrogantly defining womanhood at me to suit themselves?

 

[Cecilie1200]

They always have, ever hear of Joan of Arc, Roman emperor Elagabalus, historian Cassius Dio, Navajo nadleehi, Zuni lhamana , the third sex hijras of India numbering over 1million. As well as large populations in Bangladesh, Thailand. People that don't fit gender boxes in our society, have existed since ancient times at least 4,500 years. We are foolish to think human nature is going to change.

And I don't recall any of those people claiming that they WERE the opposite sex, simply because they didn't fit the accepted stereotypes of their own.

 

[Stann]

You start by telling us what a "girl's brain" is.

Just look up two spirit to soul and millions of people all over the world that are like this. In some areas of the world they're admired and welcomed members of society. Our society just screwed up and not accepting people that are different in any way, shape or form. This too will pass, once we become mature enough.

 

[Stann]

I have a good "secular reason not to accommodate the gender-nonconforming". How about it's incredibly offensive to me as a woman to have a bunch of men treating one of the most integral parts of my identity as a club they're trying to force membership to, and arrogantly defining womanhood at me to suit themselves?

I don't think you should be offended. It has nothing to do with you it's all about them how they feel about their essence. In other words get over yourself.

 

[Stann]

And I don't recall any of those people claiming that they WERE the opposite sex, simply because they didn't fit the accepted stereotypes of their own.

North American Indian tribes know about two-spirited people and they accept them. Same goes for the people of India, they accept them and their government has passed protections for them because a few people. The Indian people themselves believe that such individuals were strong women in a past life and it carried through into this one. I can relate to that knowing that I've been here many times. This planet seems to get be getting more screwed up the less desirable I'm glad this is my last visit here. Oh by the way the degradation in this world is being caused solely by the human population. They choose to remain ignorant and that is so sad because it was a beautiful world and it won't be much longer unless things change drastically for the better.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Just look up two spirit to soul and millions of people all over the world that are like this. In some areas of the world they're admired and welcomed members of society. Our society just screwed up and not accepting people that are different in any way, shape or form. This too will pass, once we become mature enough.

When your response to the question "define what you mean" starts with "Just go look up . . ." I stop reading, because it's obvious you have no answer; you just assume the answer exists and agrees with you, and want me to join you in your assumption.

If you are going to answer my posts, then please actually ANSWER them, or don't waste my time and screen space.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I don't think you should be offended. It has nothing to do with you it's all about them how they feel about their essence. In other words get over yourself.

I don't think what you think about what offends me is relevant, but thank you for mansplaining to me how I "should" feel.

Why is it that all of human society has to re-order itself to accommodate THEIR feelings, but the feelings of anyone who disagrees are just airily dismissed with, "Just be okay with it"? Who are they to decide that their feelings are the paramount concern in the world, but my feelings are something I need to shut up about and change to suit them?

Since there are a lot more women than there are confused men playacting that they're women, and it's MY private spaces they're invading and claiming, how about THEY get over THEMSELVES? Better yet, how about YOU get over YOURSELF and your mistaken belief that you can just tell people to be okay with what you've decided they should be okay with, on the basis that you told them so?

 

[Cecilie1200]

North American Indian tribes know about two-spirited people and they accept them. Same goes for the people of India, they accept them and their government has passed protections for them because a few people. The Indian people themselves believe that such individuals were strong women in a past life and it carried through into this one. I can relate to that knowing that I've been here many times. This planet seems to get be getting more screwed up the less desirable I'm glad this is my last visit here. Oh by the way the degradation in this world is being caused solely by the human population. They choose to remain ignorant and that is so sad because it was a beautiful world and it won't be much longer unless things change drastically for the better.

Just so you know, I read about the first three words of your windy, bloviating lectures about why I have to feel the way you tell me to and stop thinking for myself, and then I scroll right past you.

 

[Stann]

When your response to the question "define what you mean" starts with "Just go look up . . ." I stop reading, because it's obvious you have no answer; you just assume the answer exists and agrees with you, and want me to join you in your assumption.

If you are going to answer my posts, then please actually ANSWER them, or don't waste my time and screen space.

Well I gave many examples of why they should be accepted and given the same rights as everyone else it's just human kindness human nature at its best. The best measure of a culture / society is how it treats it's minorities. Sorry you feel it's fine too complain but you're too lazy to look up the information for yourself.

 

[Stann]

Just so you know, I read about the first three words of your windy, bloviating lectures about why I have to feel the way you tell me to and stop thinking for myself, and then I scroll right past you.

Ok, you sound like a wonderful person to me what could be what could possibly wrong to have set your little world hi pity you lady.

 

[Stann]

Ok, you sound like a wonderful person to me what could be what could possibly wrong to have set your little world hi pity you lady.

Okay, you sound like such a wonderful person, sorry this issue is upsetting your little world. Like I said get over it. There are real problems in the world that if you want a pity party talk about them.

 

[Stann]

I don't think what you think about what offends me is relevant, but thank you for mansplaining to me how I "should" feel.

Why is it that all of human society has to re-order itself to accommodate THEIR feelings, but the feelings of anyone who disagrees are just airily dismissed with, "Just be okay with it"? Who are they to decide that their feelings are the paramount concern in the world, but my feelings are something I need to shut up about and change to suit them?

Since there are a lot more women than there are confused men playacting that they're women, and it's MY private spaces they're invading and claiming, how about THEY get over THEMSELVES? Better yet, how about YOU get over YOURSELF and your mistaken belief that you can just tell people to be okay with what you've decided they should be okay with, on the basis that you told them so?

There you go judging them again. They are who they are. Do you ever go into a public restroom worrying you're going to get beat up or murdered. Transgender people have to face that daily. The Smart ones do everything they can to avoid using a public restroom. You read about the other ones that aren't so smart and the paper all the time being murdered or beat up.

 

[The_Lyrical_Miracle]

I think that what is coming out of the wash is this:

- A human's sex cannot be suppressed in the name of cultural desires and modern invented gender theories.
- Men and women are drawn to different things because men and women are different and overall have different desires, which is easily objectively observed by any graph data.
- When you make strong attempts to stop this natural process, and encourage youth to partake in this movement, you end up with people who are at odds with their biology, which clearly has a damaging effect on their psychology, given how many are depressed or commit suicide.

 

[Stann]

I think that what is coming out of the wash is this:

- A human's sex cannot be suppressed in the name of cultural desires and modern invented gender theories.
- Men and women are drawn to different things because men and women are different and overall have different desires, which is easily objectively observed by any graph data.
- When you make strong attempts to stop this natural process, and encourage youth to partake in this movement, you end up with people who are at odds with their biology, which clearly has a damaging effect on their psychology, given how many are depressed or commit suicide.

Sex education is not encourage anything, it's simply delivers badly needed, unbiased information. If we had good sex education 50 years ago we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

 

[The_Lyrical_Miracle]

Sex education is not encourage anything, it's simply delivers badly needed, unbiased information. If we had good sex education 50 years ago we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

And what is "good sex education"?

 

[Stann]

And what is "good sex education"?

That which keeps the kids safe and informed. Always being age appropriate is an added plus.

 

[The_Lyrical_Miracle]

That which keeps the kids safe and informed. Always being age appropriate is an added plus.

You just said something, but you said nothing at all.

How did sex education 50 years ago make kids unsafe and uninformed?

It seems like you have a belief that you don't want to say out loud.