Why do the U.S. support Ukraine which has Nazi laws?

[Soupnazi630]

Dec 2009: Ukrainian guards worse than Nazis, survivor says

MUNICH, Germany — A survivor of the Sobibor death camp testified that Ukrainian guards in Nazi-occupied Poland were worse than the Nazis’ infamous paramilitary SS as he recalled his experi...

www.winnipegfreepress.com

{...

Ukrainian guards worse than Nazis, survivor says​

By: Geir Moulson
Posted: 1:00 AM CST Wednesday, Dec. 23, 2009

MUNICH, Germany -- A survivor of the Sobibor death camp testified that Ukrainian guards in Nazi-occupied Poland were worse than the Nazis' infamous paramilitary SS as he recalled his experiences Tuesday at the trial of John Demjanjuk.
The Ukrainian-born Demjanjuk, a retired auto worker who was deported from the U.S. in May, is charged with 27,900 counts of accessory to murder for his alleged activities as a guard at Sobibor.

Jules Schelvis, an 88-year-old from the Netherlands, recalled being deported to Sobibor in 1943 along with his family. He told the Munich state court that he lost 18 relatives -- including his wife, Rachel -- at the camp.

Schelvis, one of dozens of victims' relatives who have joined the trial as co-plaintiffs, as allowed under German law, recounted his 72-hour journey from the Dutch transit camp of Westerbork in a cramped freight car, with no food and little water or fresh air.

"We were crammed in like herrings in a barrel," Schelvis testified.

At Sobibor, Schelvis recalled, the new arrivals were made to leave all their belongings in a hut before an SS man separated the men from the women, who "disappeared from view."

Another SS man selected strong young men -- including Schelvis' brother-in-law -- and the witness said he also was allowed to join the group after giving an assurance that he was healthy and spoke German.

The group was taken on a long drive and march from Sobibor to Dorohucza, where they were put to work digging up peat to serve as fuel, Schelvis said.

Schelvis said he first came across Ukrainian guards at Dorohucza. "We knew that the Ukrainian guards were worse than the SS," he told the court.

He said that, near Lublin, he saw two Ukrainian guards pass by with two Jewish prisoners.

"We heard shots, and they came back without the two men and with their clothes," he said. "Then we knew that they were worse than the others."
...}

That is one camp which is not reflective of all the camps.

 

[Soupnazi630]

Wrong.
Democracy is often called a dictatorship of the majority.
You just are not at all following long standing definitions.
And the bourgeoisie was never excluded from voting.
They were just not the majority, so would not win any vote process.
All governments are dictatorships in that you can't appease all parties.
One opinion has to win and others lose.
Whether that is good of bad is determined by other things, like if the majority wins or not.
All governments are always dictatorships by definition.

I am following precise definitions you are in denial of relaity.

marx called for a DESPOTIC dictatorship with no DEMOCRACY RULIG THROUGH TERROR.

You are full of shit about all governments.

The dictatorship of the proletariate is not elected but merely an iron fisted dictator making Stalin a pure communist

 

[Soupnazi630]

Wrong.

{...
Rights Action forwards this article about illegal and harmful U.S. sanctions against Venezuela.

Following the US lead, Canada has illegal sanctions against Venezuela. Both the US and Canada have illegal sanctions against Nicaragua also, …

… even as the US and Canada maintain full political, economic, military relations with corrupt, violent, military-backed, ‘open-for-global-business’ regimes in Honduras, Guatemala, Haiti and beyond.

This is imperialism. These are illegal, harmful US and Canadian policies and actions. It remains the responsibility of US and Canadian citizens, our courts, political bodies and media, to expose and help put an end to this global imperialist bullying.
...}

Illegal, harmful US (& Canadian) sanctions against Venezuela (& Nicaragua) — Rights Action

Rights Action forwards this article about illegal and harmful U.S. sanctions against Venezuela. Following the US lead, Canada has illegal sanctions against Venezuela. Both the US and Canada have illegal sanctions against Nicaragua also, … … even as the US and Canada maintain full political, econ

rightsaction.org

Any use of force to prevent any civilian commerce is totally illegal and a war crime according to the 1906 Geneva Convention. If a US citizen tries to buy oil from Venezuela, force will be used against them illegally.

Sanctions are not an embargo.

They are legal.

 

[Dissident]

Dissident said:
Can a democratic state have discriminating laws?

Yes. Doesn't make it right, but it happens. Jim Crow laws for example.

Wrong.
Please read in Wikipedia that «Cornerstones of democracy include … equality…», see here.
Therefore, when there is inequality/discrimination in a state, this state isn’t a democratic state any more.

Dissident said:
These scholars – like you – only know the information which is provided by Western media.

Whereas you know what Russia is telling you and we don't?

Not at all.
I never referred to a Russian media in this thread.
To know, what is going on in Ukraine, one should read Ukrainian laws and statements of Ukrainian rulers – the statements which these rulers make in Ukraine, not abroad.
Knowledge of the Ukrainian laws and statements of Ukrainian rulers is enough to understand that many things are terribly wrong with this country.

It could be that those 'NAZI Laws' you speak of are actually an attempt to protect the indigent people in Ukraine from being wiped out by the Russians that have migrated into some regions in Ukraine.

All Nazi laws of the Hitler’s Germany ALWAYS protected or defended something. For example, the Law for the PROTECTION of German Blood and German Honour, please see Wikipedia.

 

[Litwin]

April

ivan, how many chechen dick did you suck off today ? go back to you RT .ru you mongol

 

[task0778]

Please read in Wikipedia that «Cornerstones of democracy include … equality…», see here.
Therefore, when there is inequality/discrimination in a state, this state isn’t a democratic state any more.

Absolute and total bullshit. Inequality and discrimination have existed everywhere since the dawn of civilization.

Knowledge of the Ukrainian laws and statements of Ukrainian rulers is enough to understand that many things are terribly wrong with this country.

No doubt, but is beside the point. Which is, the West should not allow the naked acquisition of territory through Russian military intervention and invasion. Yes, there are a lot of things wrong in Ukraine but that doesn't give Russia the right to invade it.

All Nazi laws of the Hitler’s Germany ALWAYS protected or defended something. For example, the Law for the PROTECTION of German Blood and German Honour, please see Wikipedia.

I don't give a flyin' fuck what went on in Hitler's Germany almost 100 years ago. Until Ukraine starts to become a danger to other countries in the region, it's a sovereign nation with the right to conduct their business as they see fit. So far, they have done nothing to warrant a war against them.

 

[Dissident]

I'm not interested in...

Country using it's official language in schools is not Nazism.

It doesn’t matter for me what you are interested in.

I am absolutely sure that you understand very well that this isn’t about “country using it's official language in schools” but about division of citizens according to their ethnic origin into categories, some of which have more rights and others have less rights.

You are just pretending that you don’t understand it.

And as long as you repeat about “country using it's official language in schools” I shall repeat what I earlier have already said to you.

Therefore, relax and read the text below. It has been your decision – to pretend here instead of discussing important issues.

Dissident said:
I repeat again and again – this isn’t about mandating national language in Ukrainian public education system.
Under Ukrainian laws, different ethnic groups have different rights in Ukraine - for example, ethnic Crimean Tatars have more rights to use their native language – the Tatar language – during the education in public schools; ethnic Hungarians have less rights than Crimean Tatars to use their native language – the Hungarian – during the education in public schools; and ethnic Russians have less rights to use their native language – the Russian - than Hungarians.

https://www.usmessageboard.com/threads/why-do-the-u-s-support-ukraine-which-has-nazi-laws.966582/page-17#post-29615351

 

[Dissident]

That is the law YOU...

You make me repeat the same things again and again. Please read the text below - especially the sentence which is marked by blue color.

Dissident said:
It’s a lie. You didn’t answer my questions.

You said that the Ukrainian laws, which are discussed, aren’t Nazi laws. But you refused to answer both of my further questions, i.e. the question “How would you personally call such laws then?” and the question “Would you personally like to be a citizen of a country which has such laws?”; see here.

It makes no sense to discuss anything with a person who - like you – lies and refuses to answer questions relating to object of discussion.

https://www.usmessageboard.com/threads/why-do-the-u-s-support-ukraine-which-has-nazi-laws.966582/page-10#post-29607845

 

[AntonToo]

It doesn’t matter for me what you are interested in.

I am absolutely sure that you understand very well that this isn’t about “country using it's official language in schools” but about division of citizens according to their ethnic origin into categories, some of which have more rights and others have less rights.

You are just pretending that you don’t understand it.

And as long as you repeat about “country using it's official language in schools” I shall repeat what I earlier have already said to you.

Therefore, relax and read the text below. It has been your decision – to pretend here instead of discussing important issues.

https://www.usmessageboard.com/threads/why-do-the-u-s-support-ukraine-which-has-nazi-laws.966582/page-17#post-29615351

There is nothing "dividing" about Ukranians learning in Ukranian in public schools.

Just as there is nothing dividing about learning in Russian in Russian schools.

Russian tools like you just need some bullshit excuses to be able to look in the mirror for supporting the atrocity Russians brought to Ukraine.

 

[Ringo]

With english subs.

 

[Ringo]

Fascism is contagious!

 

[AntonToo]

Fascism is contagious!

Ironic that YOU, a shameless shill for this bloody Russian invasion are saying that.

 

[Ringo]

Ironic that YOU, a shameless shill for this bloody Russian invasion are saying that.

Interestingly, the leadership of modern fascist Ukraine says the same thing about the liberation of Ukraine from German invaders during World War II - namely, "the USSR invaded Ukraine"
Fascists of all countries think the same way

 

[Dissident]

There is nothing "dividing" about Ukranians learning in Ukranian in public schools.

Just as there is nothing dividing about learning in Russian in Russian schools.

You repeat the same things again and again.
But by doing that, you make me answer to you the same things again and again. Please read the text below.

Dissident said:
I repeat again and again – this isn’t about mandating national language in Ukrainian public education system.

Under Ukrainian laws, different ethnic groups have different rights in Ukraine - for example, ethnic Crimean Tatars have more rights to use their native language – the Tatar language – during the education in public schools; ethnic Hungarians have less rights than Crimean Tatars to use their native language – the Hungarian – during the education in public schools; and ethnic Russians have less rights to use their native language – the Russian - than Hungarians.

https://www.usmessageboard.com/threads/why-do-the-u-s-support-ukraine-which-has-nazi-laws.966582/page-17#post-29615351

 

[Dissident]

Absolute and total bullshit. Inequality and discrimination have existed everywhere since the dawn of civilization.

It makes no sense to discuss Ukrainian laws – and to discuss anything else – with a person who denies that equality is one of cornerstones of democracy (see Wikipedia).

By denying that, you deny the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen (see here), Universal Declaration of Human Rights (see here) and in general, the whole foundation on which the modern world is build.

Until Ukraine starts to become a danger to other countries in the region, it's a sovereign nation with the right to conduct their business as they see fit. So far, they have done nothing to warrant a war against them.

It could be the next question – Is Ukraine with its Nazi policy a danger to other countries in the region?

But this question should be discussed if the question “Has Ukraine the Nazi laws?” is answered in the affirmative.

However, it makes no sense to discuss it with you because – I repeat - it makes no sense to discuss anything with a person who denies the whole foundation on which the modern world is build.

 

[Ringo]

It could be the next question – Is Ukraine with its Nazi policy a danger to other countries in the region?

Ukraine from the beginning of its existence was meant as "Not Russia" with a tendency to "Anti-Russia"

 

[task0778]

It makes no sense to discuss Ukrainian laws – and to discuss anything else – with a person who denies that equality is one of cornerstones of democracy (see Wikipedia).

By denying that, you deny the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen (see here), Universal Declaration of Human Rights (see here) and in general, the whole foundation on which the modern world is build.


It could be the next question – Is Ukraine with its Nazi policy a danger to other countries in the region?

But this question should be discussed if the question “Has Ukraine the Nazi laws?” is answered in the affirmative.

However, it makes no sense to discuss it with you because – I repeat - it makes no sense to discuss anything with a person who denies the whole foundation on which the modern world is build.

It doesn't make sense to discuss anything with someone who denies reality. Which is you. Have a nice day.

 

[Ringo]

RIP property rights.
This sends a message to all nations out there: if you own something in Europe, it's entirely conditional to you being in their good graces.

 

[Dissident]

It doesn't make sense to discuss anything with someone who denies reality. Which is you.

I deny your reality because in your reality, Ukraine is a democratic state.

But in my reality, Ukraine isn’t a democratic state.
Because in my reality, Ukraine is a state whose laws divide citizens according to their ethnic origin into categories, some of which have more rights and others have less rights.

 

[toomuchtime_]

I deny your reality because in your reality, Ukraine is a democratic state.

But in my reality, Ukraine isn’t a democratic state.
Because in my reality, Ukraine is a state whose laws divide citizens according to their ethnic origin into categories, some of which have more rights and others have less rights.

Bullshit. Today's Ukraine is a liberal democracy. Just more of Putin's lies.