Zone1 Why do so many atheists seem to want to attack religion?

I hesitate to reduce something as complex and tragic as suicide bombings to “religion did it.” That kind of reduction flattens a deeply layered reality into a convenient scapegoat, and risks misunderstanding the actual drivers of violence, which makes it more likely to repeat. Suicide bombings, especially in the contexts you mentioned, are not purely religious acts. They're political, social, psychological, and existential. Religion may shape the justification, but it's not the root cause.

Many suicide bombings are strategically deployed in asymmetrical conflicts, when a weaker group fights a stronger one. Hamas, Hezbollah, and other militant groups have used suicide attacks not because their religion tells them to, but because it is one of the few tactics available to them. It’s a method of resistance or warfare, not a religious ritual.

Recruitment into suicide missions often occurs in highly traumatized, impoverished, and hopeless communities. People don’t join out of abstract theology. They join because their families were killed, their dignity was crushed, and someone gave them a story that reframes their pain as heroism. Religion becomes the wrapper, but the emotional content is loss, rage, and despair.

The same psychological patterns that lead to cults, nationalist extremism, and even gang loyalty also show up in religious radicalization. It’s not faith; it’s belonging. It’s having someone offer you certainty, purpose, glory, revenge, or redemption when you feel powerless or ashamed.
I am reducing it to religion, chiefly because that is the topic. It's not the only factor, but it is a factor.

Yes, I blame poverty. Yes I blame poor education. Yes, I blame religion.

Therefore, I blame religion. And it's a discussion modern humans need to keep having.

Reformations do not come from religion. They come in spite of the reformed religion.

Christianity underwent a reformation that completely missed Islam. I think we can all spot the difference.

Be careful talking about the bad ideas in Islam, though. Is religion NOT to blame for this?:

1000005226.webp
 
I am reducing it to religion, chiefly because that is the topic. It's not the only factor, but it is a factor.

Yes, I blame poverty. Yes I blame poor education. Yes, I blame religion.

Therefore, I blame religion. And it's a discussion modern humans need to keep having.

Reformations do not come from religion. They come in spite of the reformed religion.

Christianity underwent a reformation that completely missed Islam. I think we can all spot the difference.

Be careful talking about the bad ideas in Islam, though. Is religion NOT to blame for this?:

View attachment 1137836
If we strip away religion tomorrow, do we eliminate suicide bombings, mob violence, or moral extremism? History suggests no. We just change the uniform.

You mention that reformations don’t come from within religion, but despite it. I’d actually argue the line is blurrier. Many reformers were themselves devout, Luther, Gandhi, MLK, even various Islamic scholars today pushing for reform. They used the language of faith to reinterpret it, not because they were blind, but because they saw faith as part of the human structure they wanted to redeem.

What concerns me about the picture you posted is that it bypasses dialogue and jumps straight to shock. That image matters, but to understand it, we can’t just stop at “religion did this.” We have to ask what structure enabled it. What conditions allowed it to grow? That’s the part I care about. If we miss that, we’ll keep treating symptoms and never see the deeper machinery.
 
If we strip away religion tomorrow, do we eliminate suicide bombings, mob violence, or moral extremism?
I don't think that's the standard I have to meet. Making people smarter doesn't eliminate stupidity, and a venture to make people smarter can't be held to this standard.

Strip away from people's minds a divine decree that people commit suicide and murder others in order to live forever? I promise there would be fewer suicide bombings for Allah.

There would be an epiphany. So many people would just marvel at the study of God's creation, rather than shitting on science. For example. Ya gotta admit, such a thing would be a boon, for the species.

But this is all whimsy.
You mention that reformations don’t come from within religion, but despite it. I’d actually argue the line is blurrier. Many reformers were themselves devout, Luther, Gandhi, MLK, even various Islamic scholars today pushing for reform. They used the language of faith to reinterpret it, not because they were blind, but because they saw faith as part of the human structure they wanted to redeem.
The religion is the set of ideas. Since there is no way to tell what is true and what is not, it comes from 'royal decree;'. The reformation pushed by new, intellectual thought, whether it came from believers or not, did not come from religion.

It happened quite in spite of the religious structure in place. And it happened because of newly discovered, intellectualism and the ideas it produced. Not ideas religion produced.. Strange that the exact same instruction book didn't produce them 1000 years earlier, don't you think? Simple explanation: they didn't come from the religion.

Religion was broadstroked across literally everything for 1000s of years. Yet the renaissance and reformation came much much later. Religion simply does not get the credit. Newton discovered calculus and physics. Do you credit his religion with this? of course not.
 
I don't think that's the standard I have to meet. Making people smarter doesn't eliminate stupidity, and a venture to make people smarter can't be held to this standard.

Strip away from people's minds a divine decree that people commit suicide and murder others in order to live forever? I promise there would be fewer suicide bombings for Allah.

There would be an epiphany. So many people would just marvel at the study of God's creation, rather than shitting on science. For example. Ya gotta admit, such a thing would be a boon, for the species.

But this is all whimsy.

The religion is the set of ideas. Since there is no way to tell what is true and what is not, it comes from 'royal decree;'. The reformation pushed by new, intellectual thought, whether it came from believers or not, did not come from religion.

It happened quite in spite of the religious structure in place. And it happened because of newly discovered, intellectualism and the ideas it produced. Not ideas religion produced.. Strange that the exact same instruction book didn't produce them 1000 years earlier, don't you think? Simple explanation: they didn't come from the religion.

Religion was broadstroked across literally everything for 1000s of years. Yet the renaissance and reformation came much much later. Religion simply does not get the credit. Newton discovered calculus and physics. Do you credit his religion with this? of course not.
I’m not asking religion to take credit for Newton any more than I’m blaming it alone for violence, but I do think we’re oversimplifying a complex feedback loop. The divine decree idea, sure, that’s one input, but people don’t act on belief alone. Remove religion, and you might reduce certain manifestations, but not necessarily the core machinery that makes people latch onto absolutist ideologies.

As for reform, I agree new intellectual currents were crucial, but those currents often entered the religious space rather than bypassing it. It’s a bit like saying trees grow despite the soil. Sometimes the soil is poor, but it still anchors the growth. Ideas evolve within the constraints they inherit, even religious ones.
 
but I do think we’re oversimplifying a complex feedback loop.
Yes, for sure, but I still think we can talk about religion's role in it. I'm all for sending 100s of billions to fund schools in poor countries.

The divine decree idea, sure, that’s one input, but people don’t act on belief alone.
And thank goodness for that! That's the reformation of which I speak. I am not insulting Caefeteria Christians, for example. I am telling them they are on the right path.

Keep going! (nudge, nudge)

But yes, very often, good people end up doing bad things on religion alone.

As for reform, I agree new intellectual currents were crucial, but those currents often entered the religious space rather than bypassing it.
It was the only space available. Heresy was not punished with a stern talking-to.

They came to popularity quite in spite of the religion. Christianity, as only one example, crushed Hellenistic thought (the frontier of intellectualism, at the time) and created a dark ages for 1000+ years. To give it any credit for the reformation caused by ideas opposed to its dogma -- that unwound its regime of horrible intellectual and real crimes -- would be the height of absurdity.
 
Yes, for sure, but I still think we can talk about religion's role in it. I'm all for sending 100s of billions to fund schools in poor countries.


And thank goodness for that! That's the reformation of which I speak. I am not insulting Caefeteria Christians, for example. I am telling them they are on the right path.

Keep going! (nudge, nudge)

But yes, very often, good people end up doing bad things on religion alone.


It was the only space available. Heresy was not punished with a stern talking-to.

They came to popularity quite in spite of the religion. Christianity, as only one example, crushed Hellenistic thought (the frontier of intellectualism, at the time) and created a dark ages for 1000+ years. To give it any credit for the reformation caused by ideas opposed to its dogma -- that unwound its regime of horrible intellectual and real crimes -- would be the height of absurdity.
I agree that religion’s role in history is complicated and sometimes problematic, especially when dogma suppresses inquiry or justifies harm. The intellectual dark ages and persecution of dissenting ideas are undeniable parts of that legacy. At the same time, the persistence of faith-based frameworks, even reformist or heretical ones, also shows how deeply religion is woven into human culture and identity. New ideas didn’t just arise in a vacuum; they often had to navigate existing religious structures, for better or worse.

Ultimately, the problem lies not in religion itself, but in human nature, our vulnerabilities, desires for certainty, and the ways we wield belief and power. Understanding religion as a dynamic, evolving system shaped by people might help us see how change happens both from within and outside these structures. That awareness could guide more effective reform and meaningful dialogue.
 
Last edited:
Is that a problem? To me, that wouldn't make life any less. It would possibly make it even more miraculous.

I don't see objective meaning as being necessary for your life to have meant something. The subjective is enough.

It's irrational to make meaning out of the fundamentally meaningless. It leads to insanity. Maybe it is the definition of insane.
 
I am not pretending. My life has exactly as much meaning as I give to it. that's one of the liberating parts of not answering to an imaginary sky dictator.

Giving your entire life meaning to a sky dictator fantasy, and then ending up stardust anyway?... no thanks.

In your worldview the only meaning is you playing pretend. All your ancestors were worm food before you, as you will be, as your children will be.

So?

What's the meaning: grabbing at any temporal comfort and satisfaction you can moment to moment?

As the Bible says: "Eat, drink and be merry: for tomorrow we die"
 
Trouble comes when people behave poorly. No one group has cornered that market. Within any group a distribution will exist. As for specific individuals no one is all good or all bad.
That much is true, but a major factor in the equation is the 'magic book', like bible, torah and talmud, koran. As commanded by Deuteronomy 7, the Israeli State is invading other countries, raping the women and killing the men, and stealing the land.
 
It's irrational to make meaning out of the fundamentally meaningless. It leads to insanity. Maybe it is the definition of insane.
You think subjective meaning is madness? Maybe I'm just crazy then. That explains a lot.
 
You think subjective meaning is madness? Maybe I'm just crazy then. That explains a lot.

Is it not madness to make meaning out of that which is meaningless?

It's irrational at best and insanity at worst. And yes, I believe that.

It's mythology; it's believing in myths because you want to. How could it be any different?
 
Is it not madness to make meaning out of that which is meaningless?

It's irrational at best and insanity at worst. And yes, I believe that.

It's mythology; it's believing in myths because you want to. How could it be any different?
You seem to have an issue with the idea of somebody deriving meaning from subjective sources. You're also being insistent about calling the subjective meaningless.

Why is something meaningless to you if it doesn't echo into eternity?
 
In your worldview the only meaning is you playing pretend. All your ancestors were worm food before you, as you will be, as your children will be.

So?

What's the meaning: grabbing at any temporal comfort and satisfaction you can moment to moment?

As the Bible says: "Eat, drink and be merry: for tomorrow we die"
Imo: We're not islands. Our impact upon others is as meaningful as how others impact us every day. Sure, have fun within reason. But try to remain a good influence. One should strive to be remembered as a positive role model. A helpful soul, not some carefree drunk.
 
That’s exactly the response I’d expect from a religious nutjob attacking a rival religion.
It was a question that you didn't answer. I am very sad that you feel attacked. And I was just about to sign up. lol.

You claim to have entered into a "relationship" with a trinity. True? My question is when in your entire life have you ever seen or hear a single peep from this trinity? Any dreams, visions, personal revelations or wisdom that you learned from having a close relationship with an edible trinity to share? Here's your chance to testify! So testify!

Seriously. Jesus said that if you listened to his teaching God will come to you and make himself known to you.

So tell me, when has that ever happened during your decades long eating of the god relationship with a trinity?

Take your time......
 
Last edited:
15th post
You seem to have an issue with the idea of somebody deriving meaning from subjective sources. You're also being insistent about calling the subjective meaningless.

Why is something meaningless to you if it doesn't echo into eternity?

It's not that it feels or seems meaningless; it's that it is, and anything else is a ruse.

It's like plucking a daisy: he loves me, he loves me not. You can BELIEVE that reveals someone else's feelings, but you are constructing meaning out of nothing.
 
It's not that it feels or seems meaningless; it's that it is, and anything else is a ruse.

It's like plucking a daisy: he loves me, he loves me not. You can BELIEVE that reveals someone else's feelings, but you are constructing meaning out of nothing.
Why is it meaningless? Because it ends? Why does that make it meaningless?
 
Why is it meaningless? Because it ends? Why does that make it meaningless?

Because it not only ends, it ends in nothingness. It ends in a big shrug.

All the achievements of humans since the beginning of time--in atheism--is just a way to pass the time we have somewhat pleasantly. It adds up to nothing--or, as the Bible says, in Ecclesiastes 1:

1 The words of the Teacher,son of David, king in Jerusalem:

“Meaningless! Meaningless!”
says the Teacher.
“Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless.”
What do people gain from all their labors
at which they toil under the sun?
Generations come and generations go....

No one remembers the former generations,
and even those yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow them.
 
Because it not only ends, it ends in nothingness. It ends in a big shrug.

All the achievements of humans since the beginning of time--in atheism--is just a way to pass the time we have somewhat pleasantly. It adds up to nothing--or, as the Bible says, in Ecclesiastes 1:
Maybe you're inexperienced in understanding this form of meaning, since you attribute your meaning to a more objective, eternal thing. I maintain that impermanence does not make something meaningless. It doesn't have to last forever to have meant something to the person living that life.

I'll be real; you're coming off as pretty judgmental and short-sighted right now. It takes a lot of arrogance, even cruelty, to tell somebody the meaning they derive from life is meaningless. Are you being any better than a militant atheist right now?
 
Back
Top Bottom