Zone1 Why do so many atheists seem to want to attack religion?

[hobelim]

Because it not only ends, it ends in nothingness. It ends in a big shrug.

Wouldn't the result be the same even if you spent your whole life as a believer hoping to receive eternal life by worshipping an austere mangod that does not correspond to any real living being ever in existence, or even worse because of all the things you didn't do because you were afraid your imaginary God would be offended?

If God does exist, as he does, it would be better to have been an atheist than a believer in a false substitute counterfeit austere Jesus with all the powerful signs and miracles of the lie that scripture is to be taken literally.

Professing to have been a life long believer isn't going to get you through the pearly gates if what you believed about God was that he was a cruel and capricious petty tyrant with the carnal concerns of a lecherous old fart who hated immigrants, women, lgbtq+ people, reporters, drug users, writers, actors, artists, and comedians.

I'll tell you right now he will hit you upside your head and you will fall from the sky like lightning and find yourself being born into a concentration camp in El Salvador, the queer child of stoned latino immigrant comedians.

 

[SweetSue92]

Maybe you're inexperienced in understanding this form of meaning, since you attribute your meaning to a more objective, eternal thing. I maintain that impermanence does not make something meaningless. It doesn't have to last forever to have meant something to the person living that life.

I'll be real; you're coming off as pretty judgmental and short-sighted right now. It takes a lot of arrogance, even cruelty, to tell somebody the meaning they derive from life is meaningless. Are you being any better than a militant atheist right now?

I have repeatedly said that people can feel that they are making meaning. In fact, being a teacher of elementary children, I am solidly in favor dreamcasting, fancies, etc. I am also not saying that your life doesn't matter. Obviously it does to the people who love you, it matters very much.

But ultimately not only is that love impermanent, it has no purpose in a grander plan, in an atheists' view. I mean there are a whole slew of atheists who believe this. See Ayn Rand and her bevy of followers.

 

[Anomalism]

But ultimately not only is that love impermanent, it has no purpose in a grander plan

So? That's not the same as meaningless. Your earlier post seemed to suggest that subjective meaning isn't even real, or is insane.

"It's irrational to make meaning out of the fundamentally meaningless. It leads to insanity. Maybe it is the definition of insane."

 

[SweetSue92]

Wouldn't the result be the same even if you spent your whole life as a believer hoping to receive eternal life by worshipping an austere mangod that does not correspond to any real living being ever in existence, or even worse because of all the things you didn't do because you were afraid your imaginary God would be offended?

If God does exist, as he does, it would be better to have been an atheist than a believer in a false substitute counterfeit austere Jesus with all the powerful signs and miracles of the lie that scripture is to be taken literally.

No. Pascal's wager. If there is no God, if we are wrong, we are no further behind. We might have missed a few points of "pleasure", but we probably also were responsible and consistent, which comes with different temporal rewards. Like health and a longer life, for example.

 

[SweetSue92]

So? That's not the same as meaningless. Your earlier post seemed to suggest that subjective meaning isn't even real, or is insane.

"It's irrational to make meaning out of the fundamentally meaningless. It leads to insanity. Maybe it is the definition of insane."

Why is love meaningful, from an atheist standpoint?

 

[Anomalism]

Why is love meaningful, from an atheist standpoint?

Why wouldn't it be? Love is often times a huge part of subjective purpose. The love we feel for and from others gives a lot of people subjective purpose and meaning. Being a good parent, partner or person become important because of love.

Love is meaning. Not in a mystical way, but in a real, lived, human way. Love is the experience of deeply valuing someone else. It’s connection, empathy, sacrifice, joy and shared identity. It’s one of the highest manifestations of consciousness we know.

You’re asking “Why is love meaningful if there’s no God?” That’s like asking “Why is food nourishing if there’s no cookbook in the sky?” Love is meaningful because we feel it, we act on it, and it changes our lives. That’s meaning. It doesn’t have to come with a divine warranty sticker to matter.

 

[hobelim]

No. Pascal's wager. If there is no God, if we are wrong, we are no further behind. We might have missed a few points of "pleasure", but we probably also were responsible and consistent, which comes with different temporal rewards. Like health and a longer life, for example.

Pascal seemed to have left out of his speculations the very real possibility that believing in a false God would be far worse, both in this world and the next, than to not have believed in a false God...especially if God does exist.

I heard that God could get a little testy about people perpetuating perverted and obscene lies in his name.

But thats just what I heard.

 

[dblack]

Why wouldn't it be? Love is often times a huge part of subjective purpose. The love we feel for and from others gives a lot of people subjective purpose and meaning. Being a good parent, partner or person become important because of love.

There are also objective reasons that values like community, family, love, cooperation, etc ... benefit populations. Not, strictly speaking, evolved characteristics - but common patterns that even animals that we wouldn't assume to have "morals" participate in.
Nice video on the topic:

 

[SweetSue92]

Why wouldn't it be? Love is often times a huge part of subjective purpose. The love we feel for and from others gives a lot of people subjective purpose and meaning. Being a good parent, partner or person become important because of love.

Love is meaning. Not in a mystical way, but in a real, lived, human way. Love is the experience of deeply valuing someone else. It’s connection, empathy, sacrifice, joy and shared identity. It’s one of the highest manifestations of consciousness we know.

You’re asking “Why is love meaningful if there’s no God?” That’s like asking “Why is food nourishing if there’s no cookbook in the sky?” Love is meaningful because we feel it, we act on it, and it changes our lives. That’s meaning. It doesn’t have to come with a divine warranty sticker to matter.

Okay, seems like you have a propensity toward that kind of feeling, and there are benefits from an atheist point of view. But you can't argue against Ayn Rand's view either, from an atheist point of view. One man values love; another values cheating people for money. They are just different forms of fulfillment in a temporal world that was created from nothing, presumably by accident, and is bent toward nothingness again.

(BTW, I'm not saying atheists can't be loving people. Just that the preference for love over other pursuits is entirely subjective and, again, just a preferred way to pass the accidental time you have here.)

 

[SweetSue92]

Pascal seemed to have left out the possibility that believing in a false God would be far worse, both in this world and the next, than not believing in a false God especially if God does exist.

I heard that God could get a little testy about people perpetuating perverted and obscene lies in his name.

But thats just what I heard.

No. They're the same.

 

[Anomalism]

Okay, seems like you have a propensity toward that kind of feeling, and there are benefits from an atheist point of view. But you can't argue against Ayn Rand's view either, from an atheist point of view. One man values love; another values cheating people for money. They are just different forms of fulfillment in a temporal world that was created from nothing, presumably by accident, and is bent toward nothingness again.

(BTW, I'm not saying atheists can't be loving people. Just that the preference for love over other pursuits is entirely subjective and, again, just a preferred way to pass the accidental time you have here.)

Yes, without an objective, eternal foundation, values are preferences we choose or develop, and different people will prioritize different things.

What I’m saying is that subjective meaning still matters deeply to the people who live it. Whether the universe was created by accident or design, the experiences we have and the values we hold shape how we live and what makes life worth living. Choosing love as a guiding value isn’t objectively “better” in a cosmic sense, but it is profoundly meaningful to those who embody it.

Even if our time here is finite and the universe indifferent, the way we choose to live and the meanings we create give us a kind of personal truth and fulfillment that is very real. Being subjective doesn’t make it meaningless or irrational. It just means that meaning is a human, lived experience, not a universal fact waiting to be discovered.

 

[hobelim]

No. They're the same.

Not believing in a false God has real and verifiable benefits in this world and, if God exists, in the next as well.

Believing in a false God has real and verifiable detriments in this world and, if God exists, in the next as well.

No one who wasted their life worshipping a false god that does not exist is going to get any presents from the living God who does. Spending your life believing in a past that never happened without a clue about what is actually talking place and expecting a future that will never come is not participating in life at all. Its delusional.

No, they're not the same at all..

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I agree that religion’s role in history is complicated and sometimes problematic, especially when dogma suppresses inquiry or justifies harm.

Then youre not actually agreeing.

I am saying it is to blame for much evil, individually and perpetrated by governments.

Agreed?

I'll be real; you're coming off as pretty judgmental and short-sighted right now

And you're coming off as an appeaser and an apologist and a feckless fence straddler.. So it makes sense that I appear this way to you, because I am not interested in being or entertaining any of these things.

 

[Anomalism]

Then youre not actually agreeing.

I am saying it is to blame for much evil, individually and perpetrated by governments.

Agreed?



And you're coming off as an appeaser and an apologist and a feckless fence straddler.. So it makes sense that I appear this way to you, because I am not interested in being or entertaining any of these things.

There’s a difference between being feckless and being fair. I’m not interested in appeasing anyone. I’m interested in understanding. The world is not black and white, and pretending it is just makes things worse. Yes, religion has been used to justify horrors. So has nationalism, ideology, even science.

If you’re interested in clarity, I’m with you, but, clarity means depth. It means honesty. It means being brave enough to see the whole picture, even if it’s inconvenient.

 

[Catman51]

Atheism is not a monolith, so I'll acknowledge that before it even goes there.

Many though, in my opinion, behave just the way I'm describing. Atheism sometimes feels less like its own worldview and more like a reaction to religion; a counter-brand built against theology rather than something for itself. If faith brings peace and meaning to so many decent people, why disrupt that? Why try to hurt people with what you believe to be a devastating truth? Shouldn't the truth of its devastation trigger your empathy to restrain yourself? Is the pursuit of being right worth more than compassion? Can skepticism coexist with kindness, or does it always have to provoke conflict?

Could we maybe respect belief without surrendering critical thought? What do you think? Is there a middle ground, or is this a cultural war destined to rage forever?

The obsession to prove theists wrong isn’t bravery. It’s insecurity framed as enlightenment, and tribalism framed as skepticism. Why chain others with the burden of your disbelief? If your cause is truth, why inflict suffering in its name? Maybe some people need their faith to survive. Maybe your relentless assault only feeds their fear and resentment.

So what are you really fighting for?

I'm not fighting for any religion or belief, I just don't care about any of them. I guess that would label me as a bad person, but I just don't care.

 

[ding]

That much is true, but a major factor in the equation is the 'magic book', like bible, torah and talmud, koran. As commanded by Deuteronomy 7, the Israeli State is invading other countries, raping the women and killing the men, and stealing the land.

Incorrect. People do bad things for their own good.

 

[ding]

It was a question that you didn't answer. I am very sad that you feel attacked. And I was just about to sign up. lol.

You claim to have entered into a "relationship" with a trinity. True? My question is when in your entire life have you ever seen or hear a single peep from this trinity? Any dreams, visions, personal revelations or wisdom that you learned from having a close relationship with an edible trinity to share? Here's your chance to testify! So testify!

Seriously. Jesus said that if you listened to his teaching God will come to you and make himself known to you.

So tell me, when has that ever happened during your decades long eating of the god relationship with a trinity?

Take your time......

Attacking Christians and Christianity doesn’t make you sad. It feels good to you. That’s why you do it. Hating others feels good to you.

 

[hobelim]

Attacking Christians and Christianity doesn’t make you sad. It feels good to you. That’s why you do it. Hating others feels good to you.

Still, no reply to the question if you have ever heard a single word from the trinity you claim to have ENTERED into a relationship with.

What a surprise!!

"And as soon as Judas received the bread Satan ENTERED him."

"This, he told me, is the curse which goes out over all the land. For by the writing on one side every thief shall be swept away and by the writing on the other side every perjurer shall be swept clean away. I have sent it out, the Lord of Hosts has said, and it shall ENTER the house of the thief and the house of the man who has perjured himself in my name. It shall stay INSIDE that house and demolish it, timbers, and stones, and all."

 

[ding]

Still, no reply to the question if you have ever heard a single word from the trinity you claim to have ENTERED into a relationship with.

What a surprise!!

"And as soon as Judas received the bread Satan ENTERED him."

"This, he told me, is the curse which goes out over all the land. For by the writing on one side every thief shall be swept away and by the writing on the other side every perjurer shall be swept clean away. I have sent it out, the Lord of Hosts has said, and it shall ENTER the house of the thief and the house of the man who has perjured himself in my name. It shall stay INSIDE that house and demolish it, timbers, and stones, and all."

Wisdom isn’t given to jackanapes.

 

[ding]

I'm not fighting for any religion or belief, I just don't care about any of them. I guess that would label me as a bad person, but I just don't care.

No. That doesn’t make you a bad person.

But if you were fighting against them it would make your claim that you don’t care a lie.