Why do so many atheist scientists believe in aliens when there's no proof for them either?

[james bond]

1. Who are the scientists that declare there must be millions of alien civilizations in the universe? Carl Sagan said it while alive. Even sent a time capsule. SETI scientists.
2. How do you know they are atheists? God didn't create aliens, so aliens would be evidence against God.
3. You would need to define god before showing proof of god. There often seems to be some disagreement about what constitutes god. No aliens = evidence for God.
4. You should probably be saying evidence rather than proof. You believe the Bible is evidence of god. I'm not sure what the statement "a Bible that somehow came to be" means; it came to be when it was written? You seem to imply that it couldn't have been written but had to be created by god. Don't be so dumb as to be influenced by Satan. It's God. god is considered Satan aka god of the world in the Bible.
5. That places written about in the Bible exist seems like pretty scant evidence of god. Places written in most Stephen King books exist, but that doesn't mean I should start believing in monsters. You're entitled to your worldview even though it's wrong, wrong, wrong.
6. Why would you assume that if aliens existed, they would have contacted us? The universe is vast, almost beyond human comprehension. There could be tons of alien civilizations out there without they or us ever noticing each other. Besides, it's also possible aliens have attempted to contact us and we did not realize it. It isn't as if aliens are likely to be sending messages out in human language over devices compatible with human technology. This is ignorant. NASA, SETI, Elon Musk all think we have been contacted even thought there is no evidence. Read about the Ferdi Paradox.

I just want to comment on #2. I know that many believers reject the idea of “aliens” because the Bible doesn’t mention that God created life on other planets. But, as far as I’ve seen on this thread, you’re leaving out a very interesting part of this discussion. I’m sure you would agree that while God probably didn’t create little green men on other planets, God did create other types of beings, who live in a different dimension. In case it isn’t clear, I’m talking about celestial beings, angels. And as you know, a third of them rebelled, and became the 'fallen' angels.

What does that have to do with aliens? I’ll get to it. There are tons of people who claim to have been abducted by “aliens” or people who have seen what may appear to be aliens, and there are a number of respected researchers who have concluded that those stories are real... but here’s the interesting part. Many of these researchers concluded that what they encountered were not extraterrestrial beings or a little green man from another planet who came here on a spaceship. Rather, they encountered interdimensional beings. And some of these researchers (who by the way are non-Christians, agnostics or atheists) have actually stated that many of the stories they hear from people who have been abducted sound exactly like the stories of people who claim to have encounters with demons. There are several quotes that I will post, I just have to round them up.

Now this will probably sound completely crazy to most people here, especially the atheists. But I believe that a big deception has been going on, and the beings that many people think are “aliens” are purposely portraying themselves as being from other planets… when in fact they are demons. Another thing that is interesting is that many Hollywood movies promote the idea that aliens exist, and they are our “saviors” because they were the ones who “seeded” our planet in the first place, now they’re back to help us find another planet, yada yada yada. This is all a huge deception. As a matter of fact, I made a video on this topic, several years ago. I'll share it a little later.

Of course this also goes along with the numerous stories from ancient civilizations that otherworldly beings came down, beings that they called “gods”. There’s so much more to this topic to be discussed, it’s a huge topic and very, very interesting.

I'm going to find those quotes for you now.

I haven't heard of the "alien" abductions being from inter-dimensional beings. It sounds plausible and follows that these beings were able to travel into our timelines in the past as stated in the Bible. If we do find a portal or wormhole, then we may be able to travel to another dimension, but don't think it's possible. It could be one-way or the portal has closed.

One of the concepts I've been following to demonstrate the existence of other dimensions is the graviton. If the LHC experiments can find evidence of the graviton particle, then it shows that it does fly off into another dimension and why gravity is a weak force. To the contrary, gravity is also the strongest force as it still exists no matter where one is in the universe. Still a large mystery.

More and more people are interested in how to represent multiple dimensions and both creation and atheist scientists are interested in studying multiple dimensions.

 

[james bond]

How does the anthropic principle mean that we should have been contacted or found alien life? And are you speaking of the weak, strong, participatory, or final anthropic principle? All are controversial to some degree, and not all are completely science based; the SAP, in particular, is described as being more teleological and speculative than WAP. None of the versions of the anthropic principle seems to in any way indicate that humanity should have come into contact with alien life if it exists.

Here's a couple of links I went to in looking for information about the anthropic principle:
The Anthropic Principle
How The Anthropic Principle Became The Most Abused Idea In Science

You and your fellow atheists claim life exists elsewhere. Then, somewhere in space, there would have to be what causes life. One of the big criticisms of believers of aliens is that they have no other information to support their beliefs. Instead, they present arguments such as amino acids exist all over in space and they form proteins. Creation science discovered chilarity to disprove this. Protein can only be created within the cell. Why didn't the atheist scientists study what causes life on planet Earth on go from there?

The Anthropic Principle is based on the universe was prepared for the emergence of life and especially of human life. It is used to develop scientific explanations in cosmology. One of the arguments for it are the fine tuning facts discovered by atheist scientists when looking to explain their Big Bang Theory as follows:

• the production of a mixture of Hydrogen and Helium after the Big Bang
• long living hydrogen burning stars
• the production of the elements C, O, N, S in a star
• the distance of a planet (earth) to the star (sun): not too far, not too close
• the minimum size of the planet (to hold an atmosphere)
• atomic and molecular stability
• the unique properties of such a simple molecule as water

It's presented by Barrow and Tipler in The Anthropic Cosmological Principle.

The Anthropic Cosmological Principle by John D. Barrow

My question to Montrovant is why not start with the above and then find a planet to meet the qualities of Earth? I think NASA is trying to do this with Mars, but not really succeeding. Instead, we get more hypothesis based on evolutionary thinking such as ice/water on Mars and that somehow that means life, a microble. Actually, NASA made a video of a small fish which I saw darting across the screen as the type of life they thought could exist, but it was quickly pulled. One atheist scientist I spoke with said he thought that the evidence on Mars shows that life could have existed there in the past. I posed the same question to him and he said he's working on looking for further evidence such as fossils and such.

ETA: I think he's conceding that there is no life on Mars even though he didn't say that. I mean they've probed Mars, but haven't found a microbe. That said, they continue to probe for life, but it seems they have changed their focus to previous life.

1. You did not actually answer my question. There are multiple versions of the antrhopic principle, which do you think says that humanity should have discovered alien life it exists, and why?

2. You assume I am an atheist

3. You assume I have claimed there is life elsewhere

Basically, you seem to enjoy creating an argument based on your own often false assumptions as though they are factual.

Agnostic is the same as atheist in the Bible. To me, an agnostic is someone who isn't smart enough to figure things out for themselves.

If one believes in God and Genesis, then you would see there is no need for the anthropic principle. Were you not able to figure this out for yourself?

What do you mean "agnostic is the same as atheist in the Bible"? Neither word existed at the time, so I can only assume you mean the concepts.

If there is no need for the anthropic principle, why do you keep citing it? If you just don't want to answer the question, say so.

smh. You are wrong again. Atheism existed in ancient times, too. In Jesus' time, we have the Epicureans and Stoics. It's mentioned in the Bible and atheist history.

What I meant was God treats atheists and agnostics alike in the afterlife.

There is no need for the anthropic principle is we know God is the creator. It's for discussion scientific philosophy with atheists. They can agree to an intelligent designer who populated Earth such as panspermia. Why do you laugh? It's not only advocated by IDers, but atheists. Other atheist scientists try to get around it by citing multiverses.

 

[Montrovant]

How does the anthropic principle mean that we should have been contacted or found alien life? And are you speaking of the weak, strong, participatory, or final anthropic principle? All are controversial to some degree, and not all are completely science based; the SAP, in particular, is described as being more teleological and speculative than WAP. None of the versions of the anthropic principle seems to in any way indicate that humanity should have come into contact with alien life if it exists.

Here's a couple of links I went to in looking for information about the anthropic principle:
The Anthropic Principle
How The Anthropic Principle Became The Most Abused Idea In Science

You and your fellow atheists claim life exists elsewhere. Then, somewhere in space, there would have to be what causes life. One of the big criticisms of believers of aliens is that they have no other information to support their beliefs. Instead, they present arguments such as amino acids exist all over in space and they form proteins. Creation science discovered chilarity to disprove this. Protein can only be created within the cell. Why didn't the atheist scientists study what causes life on planet Earth on go from there?

The Anthropic Principle is based on the universe was prepared for the emergence of life and especially of human life. It is used to develop scientific explanations in cosmology. One of the arguments for it are the fine tuning facts discovered by atheist scientists when looking to explain their Big Bang Theory as follows:

• the production of a mixture of Hydrogen and Helium after the Big Bang
• long living hydrogen burning stars
• the production of the elements C, O, N, S in a star
• the distance of a planet (earth) to the star (sun): not too far, not too close
• the minimum size of the planet (to hold an atmosphere)
• atomic and molecular stability
• the unique properties of such a simple molecule as water

It's presented by Barrow and Tipler in The Anthropic Cosmological Principle.

The Anthropic Cosmological Principle by John D. Barrow

My question to Montrovant is why not start with the above and then find a planet to meet the qualities of Earth? I think NASA is trying to do this with Mars, but not really succeeding. Instead, we get more hypothesis based on evolutionary thinking such as ice/water on Mars and that somehow that means life, a microble. Actually, NASA made a video of a small fish which I saw darting across the screen as the type of life they thought could exist, but it was quickly pulled. One atheist scientist I spoke with said he thought that the evidence on Mars shows that life could have existed there in the past. I posed the same question to him and he said he's working on looking for further evidence such as fossils and such.

ETA: I think he's conceding that there is no life on Mars even though he didn't say that. I mean they've probed Mars, but haven't found a microbe. That said, they continue to probe for life, but it seems they have changed their focus to previous life.

1. You did not actually answer my question. There are multiple versions of the antrhopic principle, which do you think says that humanity should have discovered alien life it exists, and why?

2. You assume I am an atheist

3. You assume I have claimed there is life elsewhere

Basically, you seem to enjoy creating an argument based on your own often false assumptions as though they are factual.

Agnostic is the same as atheist in the Bible. To me, an agnostic is someone who isn't smart enough to figure things out for themselves.

If one believes in God and Genesis, then you would see there is no need for the anthropic principle. Were you not able to figure this out for yourself?

What do you mean "agnostic is the same as atheist in the Bible"? Neither word existed at the time, so I can only assume you mean the concepts.

If there is no need for the anthropic principle, why do you keep citing it? If you just don't want to answer the question, say so.

smh. You are wrong again. Atheism existed in ancient times, too. In Jesus' time, we have the Epicureans and Stoics. It's mentioned in the Bible and atheist history.

What I meant was God treats atheists and agnostics alike in the afterlife.

There is no need for the anthropic principle is we know God is the creator. It's for discussion scientific philosophy with atheists. They can agree to an intelligent designer who populated Earth such as panspermia. Why do you laugh? It's not only advocated by IDers, but atheists. Other atheist scientists try to get around it by citing multiverses.

Do you have reading comprehension problems? I stated clearly that the words 'atheist' and 'agnostic' did not exist at the time of the Bible, and continued to state that you were likely talking about the concepts of atheism and agnosticism. I didn't say that atheism did not exist, but that the word atheist did not exist.

You still have yet to clarify which version of the anthropic principle you believe indicates humanity should have discovered alien life and why. You provided a link to a book review, but did not explain how the anthropic principle leads to the idea that humanity should have discovered alien life. You have ignored that there are different versions of the anthropic principle. I have provided links to a couple of sites on the topic which include the various definitions, and I've read a little bit about them, and have yet to come upon anything which leads me to believe the anthropic principle would indicate humanity should have discovered alien life.

In its most basic form, the anthropic principle simply states the obvious fact that carbon-based life exists, therefore the conditions necessary for carbon-based life to exist must obtain in at least some of the universe. That is the weak anthropic principle. The strong anthropic principle says that the conditions for life must exist in the universe at some point. The participatory anthropic principle says that some form of intelligent life is a requirement for the universe to exist. The final anthropic principle says that once intelligence rises in the universe, it will never completely die out.

None of that indicates that humanity should have discovered the presence of alien life if it exists.

The Anthropic Principle

 

[buttercup]

came to the conclusion that 'aliens' are interdimensional, not extraterrestrial

And the first such example says, "perhaps they are from another dimension".

So you are being misleading

Um, that's just one quote. I don't have time right now to round up a list of quotes of his, but here's one, from an interview he did.

"But those physical dimensions - which many researchers in the UFO field want to put a lot of emphasis on because they want to nail this down physically so they can prove it by the means of Western science - I don't think it's going to lend itself to that. I think it's fine to get that material, though I don't think it will ever be more than corroborative. That's my opinion."

"I believe - whatever this phenomenon is - that the kind of profundity that it represents will not yield its secrets to a purely physicalist, material approach. That's my sense. "
...

"All of these phenomenon bespeak something extraordinary of the connection between us and that unseen so-called spirit world, where the gulf, the barrier that we've set up in the West between those worlds, seems to be permeated in some undeniable way."​

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

"western science"....you immediately know the author is a charlatan, upon seeing this term.

 

[buttercup]

"western science"....you immediately know the author is a charlatan, upon seeing this term.

Nice try and how very convenient. But he's a professor at Harvard, a Pulitzer Prize winner, and a well respected researcher, so not someone you can dismiss because he doesn't conform to your blind, small-minded atheistic view.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

"western science"....you immediately know the author is a charlatan, upon seeing this term.

Nice try and how very convenient. But he's a professor at Harvard, a Pulitzer Prize winner, and a well respected researcher, so not someone you can dismiss because he doesn't conform to your blind, small-minded atheistic view.

I dont care what his credentials are. There is no such thing as "western science"...he's a charlatan...

And yes, anyone can dismiss his hoo-ha at will. He has not a shred of evidence.

 

[Hollie]

Here are some quotes that I said I would post, by well known UFO researchers who, based on years of research, came to the conclusion that 'aliens' are interdimensional, not extraterrestrial. Keep in mind that these are secular researchers, who arrived at these conclusions because of the evidence, not religious beliefs.

“It’s both literally, physically happening to a degree; and it’s also some kind of psychological, spiritual experience occurring and originating perhaps in another dimension.”

— Dr. John E. Mack (psychiatrist, professor at Harvard Medical School, Pulitzer Prize-winning biographer)


"UFOs, although they may have no physical reality, can and do affect matter....the universe is not all that simple. Mystics, for example, have always talked about how matter vibrates at different rates of speed, but the scientist doesn't know what the mystic is talking about....there is a lot that the spaceship concept doesn't explain about UFO phenomena. You have to disallow or neglect and overlook all sorts of things if you accept the idea that nuts-and-bolts craft are coming here from outer space....the so-called extraterrestrial hypothesis....We're going to have to broaden our scope and admit other things into our playing field of science....But it would be wrong if we pursued that path to the exclusion of everything else. If the evidence suggests that there is a paranormal dimension to the phenomenon, we're going to have to pursue that.”

— Dr. J. Allen Hynek (American astronomer, professor, and ufologist)


"The 'medical examination' to which abductees are said to be subjected, often accompanied by sadistic sexual manipulation, is reminiscient of the medieval tales of encounters with demons. It makes no sense in a sophisticated or technical framework: any intelligent being equipped with the scientific marvels that UFOs possess would be in a position to achieve any of these alleged scientific objectives in a shorter time and with fewer risks."

"We are dealing with a yet unrecognized level of consciousness, independent of man but closely linked to the earth.... I do not believe anymore that UFOs are simply the spacecraft of some race of extraterrestrial visitors. This notion is too simplistic to explain their appearance, the frequency of their manifestations through recorded history, and the structure of the information exchanged with them during contact."

"The symbolic display seen by the abductees is identical to the type of initiation ritual or astral voyage that is imbedded in the [occult] traditions of every culture...the structure of abduction stories is identical to that of occult initiation rituals...the UFO beings of today belong to the same class of manifestation as the [occult] entities that were described in centuries past."

"An impressive parallel can be made between UFO occupants and the popular conceptions of demons.” "UFOs can project images or fabricated scenes designed to change our belief systems."

—Dr. Jacques Vallée (computer scientist, former astronomer, ufologist)


“The UFOs do not seem to exist as tangible, manufactured objects. They do not conform to the natural laws of our environment. They seem to be nothing more than transmogrifications tailoring themselves to our abilities to understand. The thousands of contacts with the entities indicate that they are liars and put-on artists. The UFO manifestations seem to be, by and large, merely minor variations of the age-old demonological phenomenon.”

— John Keel


"One theory which can no longer be taken very seriously is that UFOs are interstellar spaceships.”

— Arthur C. Clarke


"Many of the UFO reports now being published in the popular press recount alleged incidents that are strikingly similar to demonic possession and psychic phenomena...."

— Lynn E. Catoe


"...if one sets the three occult groups against the three classifications of UFO entities and their characteristics, it is rather surprising how complementary to each other they appear to be, not only through their appearance, activities, and level of behavior, but also in the quality of mental and, especially, emotional reaction and response that has been noted to have occurred on contact.”

— Ivar Mackay (former chairman of the respected British UFO Research Association)


“We are dealing with a multidimensional paraphysical phenomenon which is largely indigenous to planet earth.”

— Brad Steiger

"Increasingly I felt as if I were entering a struggle that might even be more than life and death. It might be a struggle for my soul, my essence, or whatever part of me might have reference to the eternal. There are worse things than death, I suspected... so far the word demon had never been spoken among the scientists and doctors who were working with me...Alone at night I worried about the legendary cunning of demons ...At the very least I was going stark, raving mad."

"I felt an absolutely indescribable sense of menace. It was hell on earth to be there [in the presence of the entities], and yet I couldn't move, couldn't cry out, couldn't get away. I'd lay as still as death, suffering inner agonies. Whatever was there seemed so monstrously ugly, so filthy and dark and sinister. Of course they were demons. They had to be. And they were here and I couldn't get away."

— Whitley Strieber, Transformation, p. 44-45, p. 181
​

What are the qualifications needed to be a certified “ufologist”?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Here are some quotes that I said I would post, by well known UFO researchers who, based on years of research, came to the conclusion that 'aliens' are interdimensional, not extraterrestrial. Keep in mind that these are secular researchers, who arrived at these conclusions because of the evidence, not religious beliefs.

“It’s both literally, physically happening to a degree; and it’s also some kind of psychological, spiritual experience occurring and originating perhaps in another dimension.”

— Dr. John E. Mack (psychiatrist, professor at Harvard Medical School, Pulitzer Prize-winning biographer)


"UFOs, although they may have no physical reality, can and do affect matter....the universe is not all that simple. Mystics, for example, have always talked about how matter vibrates at different rates of speed, but the scientist doesn't know what the mystic is talking about....there is a lot that the spaceship concept doesn't explain about UFO phenomena. You have to disallow or neglect and overlook all sorts of things if you accept the idea that nuts-and-bolts craft are coming here from outer space....the so-called extraterrestrial hypothesis....We're going to have to broaden our scope and admit other things into our playing field of science....But it would be wrong if we pursued that path to the exclusion of everything else. If the evidence suggests that there is a paranormal dimension to the phenomenon, we're going to have to pursue that.”

— Dr. J. Allen Hynek (American astronomer, professor, and ufologist)


"The 'medical examination' to which abductees are said to be subjected, often accompanied by sadistic sexual manipulation, is reminiscient of the medieval tales of encounters with demons. It makes no sense in a sophisticated or technical framework: any intelligent being equipped with the scientific marvels that UFOs possess would be in a position to achieve any of these alleged scientific objectives in a shorter time and with fewer risks."

"We are dealing with a yet unrecognized level of consciousness, independent of man but closely linked to the earth.... I do not believe anymore that UFOs are simply the spacecraft of some race of extraterrestrial visitors. This notion is too simplistic to explain their appearance, the frequency of their manifestations through recorded history, and the structure of the information exchanged with them during contact."

"The symbolic display seen by the abductees is identical to the type of initiation ritual or astral voyage that is imbedded in the [occult] traditions of every culture...the structure of abduction stories is identical to that of occult initiation rituals...the UFO beings of today belong to the same class of manifestation as the [occult] entities that were described in centuries past."

"An impressive parallel can be made between UFO occupants and the popular conceptions of demons.” "UFOs can project images or fabricated scenes designed to change our belief systems."

—Dr. Jacques Vallée (computer scientist, former astronomer, ufologist)


“The UFOs do not seem to exist as tangible, manufactured objects. They do not conform to the natural laws of our environment. They seem to be nothing more than transmogrifications tailoring themselves to our abilities to understand. The thousands of contacts with the entities indicate that they are liars and put-on artists. The UFO manifestations seem to be, by and large, merely minor variations of the age-old demonological phenomenon.”

— John Keel


"One theory which can no longer be taken very seriously is that UFOs are interstellar spaceships.”

— Arthur C. Clarke


"Many of the UFO reports now being published in the popular press recount alleged incidents that are strikingly similar to demonic possession and psychic phenomena...."

— Lynn E. Catoe


"...if one sets the three occult groups against the three classifications of UFO entities and their characteristics, it is rather surprising how complementary to each other they appear to be, not only through their appearance, activities, and level of behavior, but also in the quality of mental and, especially, emotional reaction and response that has been noted to have occurred on contact.”

— Ivar Mackay (former chairman of the respected British UFO Research Association)


“We are dealing with a multidimensional paraphysical phenomenon which is largely indigenous to planet earth.”

— Brad Steiger

"Increasingly I felt as if I were entering a struggle that might even be more than life and death. It might be a struggle for my soul, my essence, or whatever part of me might have reference to the eternal. There are worse things than death, I suspected... so far the word demon had never been spoken among the scientists and doctors who were working with me...Alone at night I worried about the legendary cunning of demons ...At the very least I was going stark, raving mad."

"I felt an absolutely indescribable sense of menace. It was hell on earth to be there [in the presence of the entities], and yet I couldn't move, couldn't cry out, couldn't get away. I'd lay as still as death, suffering inner agonies. Whatever was there seemed so monstrously ugly, so filthy and dark and sinister. Of course they were demons. They had to be. And they were here and I couldn't get away."

— Whitley Strieber, Transformation, p. 44-45, p. 181
​

What are the qualifications needed to be a certified “ufologist”?

Just find another charlatan to certify you .

 

[buttercup]

Here are some quotes that I said I would post, by well known UFO researchers who, based on years of research, came to the conclusion that 'aliens' are interdimensional, not extraterrestrial. Keep in mind that these are secular researchers, who arrived at these conclusions because of the evidence, not religious beliefs.

“It’s both literally, physically happening to a degree; and it’s also some kind of psychological, spiritual experience occurring and originating perhaps in another dimension.”

— Dr. John E. Mack (psychiatrist, professor at Harvard Medical School, Pulitzer Prize-winning biographer)


"UFOs, although they may have no physical reality, can and do affect matter....the universe is not all that simple. Mystics, for example, have always talked about how matter vibrates at different rates of speed, but the scientist doesn't know what the mystic is talking about....there is a lot that the spaceship concept doesn't explain about UFO phenomena. You have to disallow or neglect and overlook all sorts of things if you accept the idea that nuts-and-bolts craft are coming here from outer space....the so-called extraterrestrial hypothesis....We're going to have to broaden our scope and admit other things into our playing field of science....But it would be wrong if we pursued that path to the exclusion of everything else. If the evidence suggests that there is a paranormal dimension to the phenomenon, we're going to have to pursue that.”

— Dr. J. Allen Hynek (American astronomer, professor, and ufologist)


"The 'medical examination' to which abductees are said to be subjected, often accompanied by sadistic sexual manipulation, is reminiscient of the medieval tales of encounters with demons. It makes no sense in a sophisticated or technical framework: any intelligent being equipped with the scientific marvels that UFOs possess would be in a position to achieve any of these alleged scientific objectives in a shorter time and with fewer risks."

"We are dealing with a yet unrecognized level of consciousness, independent of man but closely linked to the earth.... I do not believe anymore that UFOs are simply the spacecraft of some race of extraterrestrial visitors. This notion is too simplistic to explain their appearance, the frequency of their manifestations through recorded history, and the structure of the information exchanged with them during contact."

"The symbolic display seen by the abductees is identical to the type of initiation ritual or astral voyage that is imbedded in the [occult] traditions of every culture...the structure of abduction stories is identical to that of occult initiation rituals...the UFO beings of today belong to the same class of manifestation as the [occult] entities that were described in centuries past."

"An impressive parallel can be made between UFO occupants and the popular conceptions of demons.” "UFOs can project images or fabricated scenes designed to change our belief systems."

—Dr. Jacques Vallée (computer scientist, former astronomer, ufologist)


“The UFOs do not seem to exist as tangible, manufactured objects. They do not conform to the natural laws of our environment. They seem to be nothing more than transmogrifications tailoring themselves to our abilities to understand. The thousands of contacts with the entities indicate that they are liars and put-on artists. The UFO manifestations seem to be, by and large, merely minor variations of the age-old demonological phenomenon.”

— John Keel


"One theory which can no longer be taken very seriously is that UFOs are interstellar spaceships.”

— Arthur C. Clarke


"Many of the UFO reports now being published in the popular press recount alleged incidents that are strikingly similar to demonic possession and psychic phenomena...."

— Lynn E. Catoe


"...if one sets the three occult groups against the three classifications of UFO entities and their characteristics, it is rather surprising how complementary to each other they appear to be, not only through their appearance, activities, and level of behavior, but also in the quality of mental and, especially, emotional reaction and response that has been noted to have occurred on contact.”

— Ivar Mackay (former chairman of the respected British UFO Research Association)


“We are dealing with a multidimensional paraphysical phenomenon which is largely indigenous to planet earth.”

— Brad Steiger

"Increasingly I felt as if I were entering a struggle that might even be more than life and death. It might be a struggle for my soul, my essence, or whatever part of me might have reference to the eternal. There are worse things than death, I suspected... so far the word demon had never been spoken among the scientists and doctors who were working with me...Alone at night I worried about the legendary cunning of demons ...At the very least I was going stark, raving mad."

"I felt an absolutely indescribable sense of menace. It was hell on earth to be there [in the presence of the entities], and yet I couldn't move, couldn't cry out, couldn't get away. I'd lay as still as death, suffering inner agonies. Whatever was there seemed so monstrously ugly, so filthy and dark and sinister. Of course they were demons. They had to be. And they were here and I couldn't get away."

— Whitley Strieber, Transformation, p. 44-45, p. 181
​

What are the qualifications needed to be a certified “ufologist”?

What you personally think about this topic is irrelevant. The topic has to do with aliens, so it is perfectly relevant to bring up people who have spent decades researching the topic. Another thing I find funny is that in one breath you guys say 'I don't care about credentials' but in the next breath you imply that credentials do matter. I'm actually laughing at you and the other atheist, your posts speak volumes about you, not anyone else.

 

[Natural Citizen]

If we do find a portal or wormhole, then we may be able to travel to another dimension, but don't think it's possible. It could be one-way or the portal has closed.

You'd have to create a wormhole. It's been done in a lab, though only magnetic fields have disappeared and then reappeared at the other end. Very small wormholes. Matter is quite a different glass of water, though.

 

[Natural Citizen]

...it is fair and correct to ask you just to make your point yourself.

I did.

If you were a little deeper than a mud puddle a little light bulb might have turned on.

 

[Hollie]

Here are some quotes that I said I would post, by well known UFO researchers who, based on years of research, came to the conclusion that 'aliens' are interdimensional, not extraterrestrial. Keep in mind that these are secular researchers, who arrived at these conclusions because of the evidence, not religious beliefs.

“It’s both literally, physically happening to a degree; and it’s also some kind of psychological, spiritual experience occurring and originating perhaps in another dimension.”

— Dr. John E. Mack (psychiatrist, professor at Harvard Medical School, Pulitzer Prize-winning biographer)


"UFOs, although they may have no physical reality, can and do affect matter....the universe is not all that simple. Mystics, for example, have always talked about how matter vibrates at different rates of speed, but the scientist doesn't know what the mystic is talking about....there is a lot that the spaceship concept doesn't explain about UFO phenomena. You have to disallow or neglect and overlook all sorts of things if you accept the idea that nuts-and-bolts craft are coming here from outer space....the so-called extraterrestrial hypothesis....We're going to have to broaden our scope and admit other things into our playing field of science....But it would be wrong if we pursued that path to the exclusion of everything else. If the evidence suggests that there is a paranormal dimension to the phenomenon, we're going to have to pursue that.”

— Dr. J. Allen Hynek (American astronomer, professor, and ufologist)


"The 'medical examination' to which abductees are said to be subjected, often accompanied by sadistic sexual manipulation, is reminiscient of the medieval tales of encounters with demons. It makes no sense in a sophisticated or technical framework: any intelligent being equipped with the scientific marvels that UFOs possess would be in a position to achieve any of these alleged scientific objectives in a shorter time and with fewer risks."

"We are dealing with a yet unrecognized level of consciousness, independent of man but closely linked to the earth.... I do not believe anymore that UFOs are simply the spacecraft of some race of extraterrestrial visitors. This notion is too simplistic to explain their appearance, the frequency of their manifestations through recorded history, and the structure of the information exchanged with them during contact."

"The symbolic display seen by the abductees is identical to the type of initiation ritual or astral voyage that is imbedded in the [occult] traditions of every culture...the structure of abduction stories is identical to that of occult initiation rituals...the UFO beings of today belong to the same class of manifestation as the [occult] entities that were described in centuries past."

"An impressive parallel can be made between UFO occupants and the popular conceptions of demons.” "UFOs can project images or fabricated scenes designed to change our belief systems."

—Dr. Jacques Vallée (computer scientist, former astronomer, ufologist)


“The UFOs do not seem to exist as tangible, manufactured objects. They do not conform to the natural laws of our environment. They seem to be nothing more than transmogrifications tailoring themselves to our abilities to understand. The thousands of contacts with the entities indicate that they are liars and put-on artists. The UFO manifestations seem to be, by and large, merely minor variations of the age-old demonological phenomenon.”

— John Keel


"One theory which can no longer be taken very seriously is that UFOs are interstellar spaceships.”

— Arthur C. Clarke


"Many of the UFO reports now being published in the popular press recount alleged incidents that are strikingly similar to demonic possession and psychic phenomena...."

— Lynn E. Catoe


"...if one sets the three occult groups against the three classifications of UFO entities and their characteristics, it is rather surprising how complementary to each other they appear to be, not only through their appearance, activities, and level of behavior, but also in the quality of mental and, especially, emotional reaction and response that has been noted to have occurred on contact.”

— Ivar Mackay (former chairman of the respected British UFO Research Association)


“We are dealing with a multidimensional paraphysical phenomenon which is largely indigenous to planet earth.”

— Brad Steiger

"Increasingly I felt as if I were entering a struggle that might even be more than life and death. It might be a struggle for my soul, my essence, or whatever part of me might have reference to the eternal. There are worse things than death, I suspected... so far the word demon had never been spoken among the scientists and doctors who were working with me...Alone at night I worried about the legendary cunning of demons ...At the very least I was going stark, raving mad."

"I felt an absolutely indescribable sense of menace. It was hell on earth to be there [in the presence of the entities], and yet I couldn't move, couldn't cry out, couldn't get away. I'd lay as still as death, suffering inner agonies. Whatever was there seemed so monstrously ugly, so filthy and dark and sinister. Of course they were demons. They had to be. And they were here and I couldn't get away."

— Whitley Strieber, Transformation, p. 44-45, p. 181
​

What are the qualifications needed to be a certified “ufologist”?

What you personally think about this topic is irrelevant. The topic has to do with aliens, so it is perfectly relevant to bring up people who have spent decades researching the topic. Another thing I find funny is that in one breath you guys say 'I don't care about credentials' but in the next breath you imply that credentials do matter. I'm actually laughing at you and the other atheist, your posts speak volumes about you, not anyone else.

No one is saying you can’t believe that aliens are among us or aliens exist. Honestly, that’s no more outrageous than people believing in Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster or other tales of monsters and demons. It's not for me personally, and I argue that such things had their place and there are better and more realistic models that show factual evidence. Those will eventually replace beliefs in monsters and demons (like these days you don't hear about monsters and demons, but instead the more science-oriented UFOs and aliens -- both are mythic belief systems with no evidence in support of the claims).

 

[buttercup]

"western science"....you immediately know the author is a charlatan, upon seeing this term.

Nice try and how very convenient. But he's a professor at Harvard, a Pulitzer Prize winner, and a well respected researcher, so not someone you can dismiss because he doesn't conform to your blind, small-minded atheistic view.

I dont care what his credentials are. There is no such thing as "western science"...he's a charlatan...

And yes, anyone can dismiss his hoo-ha at will. He has not a shred of evidence.

You are even more blind than I thought. It's one thing to be sincerely ignorant, it's quite another to be willfully blind. I know why his use of that phrase bothers you. Because it implies that there is another way of looking at the world and seeking truth that doesn't conform to your materialist, small-minded atheistic worldview. Keep your head in the sand where it's comfy....it's pitiful, but you do you.

 

[buttercup]

Here are some quotes that I said I would post, by well known UFO researchers who, based on years of research, came to the conclusion that 'aliens' are interdimensional, not extraterrestrial. Keep in mind that these are secular researchers, who arrived at these conclusions because of the evidence, not religious beliefs.

“It’s both literally, physically happening to a degree; and it’s also some kind of psychological, spiritual experience occurring and originating perhaps in another dimension.”

— Dr. John E. Mack (psychiatrist, professor at Harvard Medical School, Pulitzer Prize-winning biographer)


"UFOs, although they may have no physical reality, can and do affect matter....the universe is not all that simple. Mystics, for example, have always talked about how matter vibrates at different rates of speed, but the scientist doesn't know what the mystic is talking about....there is a lot that the spaceship concept doesn't explain about UFO phenomena. You have to disallow or neglect and overlook all sorts of things if you accept the idea that nuts-and-bolts craft are coming here from outer space....the so-called extraterrestrial hypothesis....We're going to have to broaden our scope and admit other things into our playing field of science....But it would be wrong if we pursued that path to the exclusion of everything else. If the evidence suggests that there is a paranormal dimension to the phenomenon, we're going to have to pursue that.”

— Dr. J. Allen Hynek (American astronomer, professor, and ufologist)


"The 'medical examination' to which abductees are said to be subjected, often accompanied by sadistic sexual manipulation, is reminiscient of the medieval tales of encounters with demons. It makes no sense in a sophisticated or technical framework: any intelligent being equipped with the scientific marvels that UFOs possess would be in a position to achieve any of these alleged scientific objectives in a shorter time and with fewer risks."

"We are dealing with a yet unrecognized level of consciousness, independent of man but closely linked to the earth.... I do not believe anymore that UFOs are simply the spacecraft of some race of extraterrestrial visitors. This notion is too simplistic to explain their appearance, the frequency of their manifestations through recorded history, and the structure of the information exchanged with them during contact."

"The symbolic display seen by the abductees is identical to the type of initiation ritual or astral voyage that is imbedded in the [occult] traditions of every culture...the structure of abduction stories is identical to that of occult initiation rituals...the UFO beings of today belong to the same class of manifestation as the [occult] entities that were described in centuries past."

"An impressive parallel can be made between UFO occupants and the popular conceptions of demons.” "UFOs can project images or fabricated scenes designed to change our belief systems."

—Dr. Jacques Vallée (computer scientist, former astronomer, ufologist)


“The UFOs do not seem to exist as tangible, manufactured objects. They do not conform to the natural laws of our environment. They seem to be nothing more than transmogrifications tailoring themselves to our abilities to understand. The thousands of contacts with the entities indicate that they are liars and put-on artists. The UFO manifestations seem to be, by and large, merely minor variations of the age-old demonological phenomenon.”

— John Keel


"One theory which can no longer be taken very seriously is that UFOs are interstellar spaceships.”

— Arthur C. Clarke


"Many of the UFO reports now being published in the popular press recount alleged incidents that are strikingly similar to demonic possession and psychic phenomena...."

— Lynn E. Catoe


"...if one sets the three occult groups against the three classifications of UFO entities and their characteristics, it is rather surprising how complementary to each other they appear to be, not only through their appearance, activities, and level of behavior, but also in the quality of mental and, especially, emotional reaction and response that has been noted to have occurred on contact.”

— Ivar Mackay (former chairman of the respected British UFO Research Association)


“We are dealing with a multidimensional paraphysical phenomenon which is largely indigenous to planet earth.”

— Brad Steiger

"Increasingly I felt as if I were entering a struggle that might even be more than life and death. It might be a struggle for my soul, my essence, or whatever part of me might have reference to the eternal. There are worse things than death, I suspected... so far the word demon had never been spoken among the scientists and doctors who were working with me...Alone at night I worried about the legendary cunning of demons ...At the very least I was going stark, raving mad."

"I felt an absolutely indescribable sense of menace. It was hell on earth to be there [in the presence of the entities], and yet I couldn't move, couldn't cry out, couldn't get away. I'd lay as still as death, suffering inner agonies. Whatever was there seemed so monstrously ugly, so filthy and dark and sinister. Of course they were demons. They had to be. And they were here and I couldn't get away."

— Whitley Strieber, Transformation, p. 44-45, p. 181
​

What are the qualifications needed to be a certified “ufologist”?

What you personally think about this topic is irrelevant. The topic has to do with aliens, so it is perfectly relevant to bring up people who have spent decades researching the topic. Another thing I find funny is that in one breath you guys say 'I don't care about credentials' but in the next breath you imply that credentials do matter. I'm actually laughing at you and the other atheist, your posts speak volumes about you, not anyone else.

No one is saying you can’t believe that aliens are among us or aliens exist. Honestly, that’s no more outrageous than people believing in Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster or other tales of monsters and demons. It's not for me personally, and I argue that such things had their place and there are better and more realistic models that show factual evidence. Those will eventually replace beliefs in monsters and demons (like these days you don't hear about monsters and demons, but instead the more science-oriented UFOs and aliens -- both are mythic belief systems with no evidence in support of the claims).

I never said that I believe in "aliens." In fact, I stated earlier that I believe it's a deception. But at the same time, I think it's incredibly arrogant and willfully blind to conclude that no other forms of life exist anywhere, without doing the research. That's like claiming to be omniscient, while having only a tiny bit of knowledge...it is arrogant and foolish.

One thing I have learned is that truth is often stranger than fiction. The reason I posted those quotes on the previous page is because many of the researchers who spent decades studying this topic changed their view from the standard idea that life may exist on other planets, to the idea that those entities are interdimensional. Secular researchers coming to that conclusion is interesting, and you can dismiss the whole thing if you want, but since you're not the one who did the research and interviewed hundreds of people, your opinion is based on what you already believe… not on years of research and a genuine search for truth.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

so it is perfectly relevant to bring up people who have spent decades researching the topic.

Who cares if they spent decades or 5 minutes?..the result is the same...they are charlatans without a shred of evidence.

 

[BreezeWood]

There is no need for the anthropic principle is we know God is the creator. It's for discussion scientific philosophy with atheists. They can agree to an intelligent designer who populated Earth such as panspermia. Why do you laugh? It's not only advocated by IDers, but atheists. Other atheist scientists try to get around it by citing multiverses.

very confusing post ...

But at the same time, I think it's incredibly arrogant and willfully blind to conclude that no other forms of life exist anywhere, without doing the research. That's like claiming to be omniscient, while having only a tiny bit of knowledge...it is arrogant and foolish.

I think it's incredibly arrogant and willfully blind - That's like claiming to be omniscient, while having only a tiny bit of knowledge ...

would that include reliance for their worldview on a single 4th century nonverified document -


Why do you laugh?

. christianity ... sadly is not a laughing matter.

 

[Skull Pilot]

It's a question that intrigues me, the fact that atheist scientists say there's no proof of God, but then declare to the world that there MUST be millions of alien civilizations in our universe.

There is, in fact, more proof of God than there are of aliens.

Because there's NO PROOF of aliens.

NONE.

NADA.

While the proof of God is that there is a Bible that somehow came to be, and archaelogists have found many places identified in the Bible, like the Tomb of the Patriarchs, Herod's Temple, Peter's tomb, etc.

If aliens lived ANYWHERE we would know it by now because they would have contacted us.

For one no one has ever seen god. There is no scientific proof that a biblical god actually exists.

But we have seen that life already exists in the universe so we know it's distinct possibility, seeing that the universe is so vast, that other life exists

 

[james bond]

You and your fellow atheists claim life exists elsewhere. Then, somewhere in space, there would have to be what causes life. One of the big criticisms of believers of aliens is that they have no other information to support their beliefs. Instead, they present arguments such as amino acids exist all over in space and they form proteins. Creation science discovered chilarity to disprove this. Protein can only be created within the cell. Why didn't the atheist scientists study what causes life on planet Earth on go from there?

The Anthropic Principle is based on the universe was prepared for the emergence of life and especially of human life. It is used to develop scientific explanations in cosmology. One of the arguments for it are the fine tuning facts discovered by atheist scientists when looking to explain their Big Bang Theory as follows:

• the production of a mixture of Hydrogen and Helium after the Big Bang
• long living hydrogen burning stars
• the production of the elements C, O, N, S in a star
• the distance of a planet (earth) to the star (sun): not too far, not too close
• the minimum size of the planet (to hold an atmosphere)
• atomic and molecular stability
• the unique properties of such a simple molecule as water

It's presented by Barrow and Tipler in The Anthropic Cosmological Principle.

The Anthropic Cosmological Principle by John D. Barrow

My question to Montrovant is why not start with the above and then find a planet to meet the qualities of Earth? I think NASA is trying to do this with Mars, but not really succeeding. Instead, we get more hypothesis based on evolutionary thinking such as ice/water on Mars and that somehow that means life, a microble. Actually, NASA made a video of a small fish which I saw darting across the screen as the type of life they thought could exist, but it was quickly pulled. One atheist scientist I spoke with said he thought that the evidence on Mars shows that life could have existed there in the past. I posed the same question to him and he said he's working on looking for further evidence such as fossils and such.

ETA: I think he's conceding that there is no life on Mars even though he didn't say that. I mean they've probed Mars, but haven't found a microbe. That said, they continue to probe for life, but it seems they have changed their focus to previous life.

You're ge


1. You did not actually answer my question. There are multiple versions of the antrhopic principle, which do you think says that humanity should have discovered alien life it exists, and why?

2. You assume I am an atheist

3. You assume I have claimed there is life elsewhere

Basically, you seem to enjoy creating an argument based on your own often false assumptions as though they are factual.

Agnostic is the same as atheist in the Bible. To me, an agnostic is someone who isn't smart enough to figure things out for themselves.

If one believes in God and Genesis, then you would see there is no need for the anthropic principle. Were you not able to figure this out for yourself?

What do you mean "agnostic is the same as atheist in the Bible"? Neither word existed at the time, so I can only assume you mean the concepts.

If there is no need for the anthropic principle, why do you keep citing it? If you just don't want to answer the question, say so.

smh. You are wrong again. Atheism existed in ancient times, too. In Jesus' time, we have the Epicureans and Stoics. It's mentioned in the Bible and atheist history.

What I meant was God treats atheists and agnostics alike in the afterlife.

There is no need for the anthropic principle is we know God is the creator. It's for discussion scientific philosophy with atheists. They can agree to an intelligent designer who populated Earth such as panspermia. Why do you laugh? It's not only advocated by IDers, but atheists. Other atheist scientists try to get around it by citing multiverses.

Do you have reading comprehension problems? I stated clearly that the words 'atheist' and 'agnostic' did not exist at the time of the Bible, and continued to state that you were likely talking about the concepts of atheism and agnosticism. I didn't say that atheism did not exist, but that the word atheist did not exist.

You still have yet to clarify which version of the anthropic principle you believe indicates humanity should have discovered alien life and why. You provided a link to a book review, but did not explain how the anthropic principle leads to the idea that humanity should have discovered alien life. You have ignored that there are different versions of the anthropic principle. I have provided links to a couple of sites on the topic which include the various definitions, and I've read a little bit about them, and have yet to come upon anything which leads me to believe the anthropic principle would indicate humanity should have discovered alien life.

In its most basic form, the anthropic principle simply states the obvious fact that carbon-based life exists, therefore the conditions necessary for carbon-based life to exist must obtain in at least some of the universe. That is the weak anthropic principle. The strong anthropic principle says that the conditions for life must exist in the universe at some point. The participatory anthropic principle says that some form of intelligent life is a requirement for the universe to exist. The final anthropic principle says that once intelligence rises in the universe, it will never completely die out.

None of that indicates that humanity should have discovered the presence of alien life if it exists.

The Anthropic Principle

Since I beat you up on the anthropic principle, you lead off with the lesser and insignificant 'atheist' and 'agnostic' complaint. What a sniveling little beotch you are.

I am frustrated. I have patiently explained the evidence of no aliens and yet you do not acknowledge any of it. ARE YOU SO DENSE THAT YOU CANNOT COMPREHEND WHAT HAS BEEN POINTED OUT TO YOU SEVERAL TIMES NOW???!!!???!!! WHY DIDN'T YOU ANSWER MY QUESTION!!!

Why don't you read the book I recommended and then come back after getting a firm foundation? Then you will know what the AP choice is! Or may pick a different one for yourself and be able to formulate a decent argument. Or you may be able to satisfy yourself that there are no aliens. Barrow and Tipler's work has been hailed as "the most comprehensive analysis to date of the so-called Anthropic Principle and its relation to the classic teleological argument for a Divine Designer of the cosmos." I am intelligent enough to present both sides, which I did, since you can't formulate a decent counter argument. If you can't educate yourself or are too lazy to, then just admit you are ignorant and I will present the philosophical lowdown against Barrow and Tipler's choice.

I already told you mine, God the Creator, and I am the one who is correct in that there are no aliens because God didn't create any aliens. Science backs up the Bible again. All the evidence points to no aliens while there is no credible scientific evidence for aliens.

Furthermore, what you fail to understand is the Christian backers of the anthropic principle are theistic evolutionists like Hugh Ross and that I am not a theistic evolutionist.

One of the things that you should have gotten from this thread is that the argument for aliens due to billions and billions of stars, moons and planets has been debunked. I don't think you are smart enough to realize this, so am pointing it out again so you do not shat on yourself in future discussions.

 

[james bond]

If we do find a portal or wormhole, then we may be able to travel to another dimension, but don't think it's possible. It could be one-way or the portal has closed.

You'd have to create a wormhole. It's been done in a lab, though only magnetic fields have disappeared and then reappeared at the other end. Very small wormholes. Matter is quite a different glass of water, though.

Is there a video of it?