Zone1 My Spiritual Evolution

[martybegan]

Way to miss the point entirely.

Not missing it at all.

You are trying to equate hypocrisy with not perfectly adhering to every single snippet of a given religion or religious belief.

 

[martybegan]

"Trump's a sinner. You're a sinner. We're all sinners. We are all forgiven. Free candy for everyone!"

"Barack HUSSEIN Obama should burn in hell!"

Hypocrites, see?

And you think Trump should burn in Hell.

 

[BackAgain]

My spiritual balance has been way out of whack for way too long. I have just made a commitment to myself I am going to avoid the news as much as possible for the next few years, and cut back on my attendance in the Politics and Current Events forums here.

Some people call what I am about to do my Testimony. Whatever.

There are other people who will think what I am about to say is a boatload of horseshit, and that's fine. I totally understand as I have given them good reason to think so.

But stick it out with me if you wish to hear me out. This will necessarily be a long story, but I hope an interesting enough one to keep you engaged.

I am not going to go into the gruesome details, but I was abused in every way possible in my childhood. In some ways which you may never have heard of.

Suffice it to say I spent a significant portion of my childhood in hospital beds.

By the time I was 15 years old, I had come to believe everyone on Earth was put here to fuck with me personally. I thought everyone was a machine, including my brothers whose faces I punched every day and who punched my face every day. We had been reduced to wild animals.

I later learned in my life that thinking problem I had is called paranoid schizophrenia.

I also came to very firmly believe there could not possibly be a God, as He would not have let all this shit happen to me. I became a very angry militant atheist. The really pissed off kind.

So I went into politics as that is a natural fit for paranoid schizophrenics and atheists. I joined an organization founded by the eminent Bill Buckley called Young Americans for Freedom. I met Reagan before he was president, and many other household names.

There I was. 15, 16, 17 years old, making speeches to legislators in their hallowed chambers and halls. I spoke out against the Equal Right Amendment, pissing off a lot of lesbians. (I kid! I kid!)

I spoke in favor of a Right To Work bill. You could not get a job in my state unless you joined a union and that annoyed the hell out me. So when it became obvious to me the Senate committee was bought and owned by the labor unions as indicated by their fawning over unionists and vicious attacks against us Right To Workers, I stood up and made eye contact with the Vice President of the AFL-CIO and gave him the fist.

500 mobsters in three piece suits paid by my dues to be there booed at me. I'll never forget that sound echoing off the walls. Then two thugs followed me out of the room, trying to intimidate me. So I took them on a hike, up and around the Capitol dome as they huffed and puffed and wheezed. My mother was terrified for me. I was laughing my ass off.

We got threatening phone calls for months afterward. How sad is it the mob felt the need to intimidate a 17 year old when they had already won the war?

Anyway.

My younger brother decided the best way to escape our situation was to enter the service. I followed soon after, and then my older brother joined up right after that.

We had a pact with each other despite our mutual hatred of each other. We had a much younger brother and we all vowed that if our parents did even a fraction of what they did to us to him, we would kill them

I explain to people all the time that a lot of veterans come to the service already pre-traumatized, and are trying to get away from their own personal horrors.

But it was too late for my older brother. He was an intravenous drug addict by then, got in a lot of fights in the service, and was dishonorably discharged. He died a few years later as one of the early victims of AIDS.

My other veteran brother now lives on a mountaintop in New Hampshire as he was forced out of the workplace for being a danger to others. He is heavily medicated by the VA and lives contentedly raising chicken and marijuana plants. He does not partake of the pot as that would mess with his medications. He grows it to give to his elderly neighbors for their various old people ailments.

This is a guy I used to beat this shit out of. Now we are as close as two brothers can be. We are surivors.

Some of you will be happy to know he is a huge Trump fan. Before his wife dragged him to the VA to get help, he was more than ready to start shooting homos and Mexicans if Trump lost the 2016 election.

Thank God Trump won, I guess?

My family was dirt poor. A few years ago, I searched for my childhood home. When I found it, I was traumatized all over again at its tiny size. I could not believe that many of us had lived there, and all the horrors came rushing back.

Despite my parents' flaws, they made sure all us boys attended private Catholic schools. I have no idea how they pulled that off. But I well remember it meant eating a lot of hot dogs, drinking nothing but powdered milk, and so forth. You get the picture.

It also meant the financial strain of our education only increased the stress level which rolled downhill onto us.

Nonetheless, every bit of my success in life is due to that education.

Another thing my dad did is he lectured me for hours, days, months, years about the Irish-never-quit thing. Pounded that shit right into me.

That turned out to serve me incredibly well in the service, let me tell you. When I saw other guys whining and crying and failing in boot camp, I was amazed. Boot camp was a cake walk to me!

Damn right never quit. No matter what shitstorm you find yourself in.

So God bless my parents, I guess?

As a result of my Catholic education at the hands of some seriously sadistic nuns, I left home with a strong moral code despite being a rabid atheist.

Here's a thing.

The nuns teach you about mortal sins and venial sins. If you violate one of the Ten Commandments, that's a mortal sin and you are going to hell. If you violate one of the thousands of venial sins, the confessor priest checks his spreadsheet and tells you how many Hail Mary's and Our Fathers you have to say to wipe your slate clean.

So like I said. I left home with a powerful moral code.

Which I immediately set about violating at every opportunity. It was a rebellion against the straightjacket I had been in my whole life.

Here's another thing.

If you violate one of the Ten Commandments, you're going to hell. So what difference does it matter if you do it one hundred times, right?

Atheist Logic, baby!

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeee!


Here's another thing which was behind my rejection of my moral code.

Because of all the abuse, my filters were all fucked up. They were clogged.

Our parents took us to mass every Sunday. And they read a piece of the Old Testament, then a piece of the New Testament. If you go seven days a week for a year, like some of the old biddies do, you've heard the whole bible.

But as mere Sunday worshippers, we only heard 52 pieces of it. You were supposed to make up the difference in catechism, which we did for a while.

Anyway. My filters.

The only stuff which made it through my filters were the parts where God was smiting and nuking people for being sinners.

i did not hear a word of love or forgiveness. I know for a fact that stuff was read to us. I've read the Bible since my conversion, and it was an entirely different book. My filters were unclogged. But at the time, I didn't hear a word of any of the New Testament.

Weird, right?

God was a real bastard from my point of view. He sets us up to fail and then sends us to hell. That was my view.

God can kiss my ass, I decided.

Here's another thing.

How can you hate Someone you don't believe exists? That snake swallowed its own tail for decades of my life.

At some point, you start desperately hoping there really is no God since you are such a fuckup. He is sending you to hell for sure!

Forever.

A little side track for a second.

After my older brother died from AIDS, my parents took responsibility and repented. They even went so far as to open two halfway houses and took in convicts and such. The named their charity Agape, which is a Greek word for unconditional love.

It took me quite a few years beyond that, though, to finally forgive them.

Let me tell you. Being a forgiving person is the very highest state of being a human can achieve.

It's a real bitch getting there. A real motherfucking bitch.

For a long time, I was obsessed with murdering my parents.

A real motherfucking bitch getting there, folks. And it was only due to my conversion, which I promise I am getting to in the next few thousand words.

After the reconciliation decades later, I asked my very Catholic dad what he thought hell was. He was so Catholic, he quite the corporate world and went to work for a Catholic mission. Who better to ask, right?

Don't say a priest. I'll explain later.

I'm expecting my dad to talk about lakes of fire and demons with pitchforks and all that shit you see in those terrifying religious paintings.

No.

He says hell is, "Eternal separation from God."

Whoa.

Whoa...



I still get chills. Because I have been in hell for most of my life. And it wasn't the abuse which put me there, though I could be forgiven for thinking so.

I put myself in hell. I told God to kiss my ass and turned my back on Him.


Here's another thing.

When you are crazy pissed off and an atheist, you acquire what is known as a Confirmation Bias. It's a kind of logical fallacy.

Let me tell you, when you serve in the military for over 20 years like I did, you are provided limitless evidence to feed that bias.

You are sent to places where you see all the worst things human beings do to each other. Yep, for sure there's no God.

I wasn't satisfied with all this evidence, though. I needed more.

Wherever I went on this planet, I would seek out the local holy men and interrogate them. I would engage them in angry debate and challenge their beliefs.

When I look back now at the nerve I had doing that, I feel deeply ashamed.

If I grilled a priest, and I did many, I had one question which my filters had been unable to process. I would ask the priest du jour, "What does Jesus died for our sins mean?"

I honestly did not get it.

There is no doubt every one of them answered the question straightforwardly. But there's a bit in the Old Testament about Egypt's Pharoah's heart being hardened which made it literally impossible for him to heed Moses and, by extension, God. So God had to really fuck the Pharoah up the ass until he got the point.

That was me. Mr. Hardened Heart. I literally could not understand those priests, I was so far gone down the atheist rabbit hole.

Eternal separation from God. My inability to understand priests is why I went to my dad to find out if I was going to hell and finding out I had been there for a while already.

I won't go into all the gruesome details of my lifestyle while I was in the void. I'll just jump ahead to my conversion process now. There are three phases to my spiritual evolution which means you have about 38 thousand more words to read.

Take a break. I'll wait here.

Wicked long. I started to skim it but it just kept going.

So, I don’t know if anything you said is genuine or if you’re just doing something along the lines of pranking.

If the latter, of course, fuck off.

If the former, I hope you get help.

 

[g5000]

Not missing it at all.

You are trying to equate hypocrisy with not perfectly adhering to every single snippet of a given religion or religious belief.

Nope.

You again miss the point.

But going with what you just said, please tell me what brand of Christianity is okay with unrepentant adultery, pathological lying, bearing false witness on a nearly daily basis (which is different from lying), and thievery?

Notice how long Trump dances and jives until admitting he has not asked God for forgiveness:

 

[BackAgain]

You know, I choke up every time someone plays Amazing Grace. That song defines me perfectly. "Was blind but now I see."

It's corny as hell it impacts me like that. But what can you do, you know?

I especially like it played on the fife and drum with an orchestra.

Those Gaelic ladies do a crystal clear and very pleasing version (along with some bagpipers etc). I enjoy their harmonies.

Here. You may like it.

 

[martybegan]

Nope.

You again miss the point.

But going with what you just said, please tell me what brand of Christianity is okay with unrepentant adultery, pathological lying, bearing false witness on a nearly daily basis (which is different from lying), and thievery?

Notice how long Trump dances and jives until admitting he has not asked God for forgiveness:

That's between God and Trump.

Meanwhile he supports policies that people far more religious than me support, and that's why they vote for him.

 

[Missourian]

Further... when Jesus criticized the Pharisees, it was not out of hate, but love. To teach them the error of their ways.

"Trump's a sinner. You're a sinner. We're all sinners. We are all forgiven. Free candy for everyone!"

"Barack HUSSEIN Obama should burn in hell!"

Hypocrites, see?

I don't think that about Barack. I think he did what he believed was right. I just don't agree with him.

Biden was always kind of a dunce.

 

[Donald H]

Nope.

You again miss the point.

But going with what you just said, please tell me what brand of Christianity is okay with unrepentant adultery, pathological lying, bearing false witness on a nearly daily basis (which is different from lying), and thievery?

Notice how long Trump dances and jives until admitting he has not asked God for forgiveness:

You probably will have to leave your wife.

You definitely need to leave this forum.

Beware of becoming enlightened and then discovering that Christianity is a pack of lies. (the danger is in being too intelligent for religion)

My advice to you so that you don't find that you've ended up with nothing.

 

[Missourian]

Nope.

You again miss the point.

But going with what you just said, please tell me what brand of Christianity is okay with unrepentant adultery, pathological lying, bearing false witness on a nearly daily basis (which is different from lying), and thievery?

Notice how long Trump dances and jives until admitting he has not asked God for forgiveness:

I was a Presbyterian. Presbyterians believe in predestination as did Calvin.

The elected are saved.

It comes from John 6:44-

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

Repentance may not have been a huge part of his religious education in a New York Presbyterian Church like it would have been for a Catholic or Southern Baptist.

 

[Missourian]

Here is an explanation of Calvinistic predestination...

 

[martybegan]

Here is an explanation of Calvinistic predestination...

View attachment 1118808

Isn't the other thing is since God is infallible and everything is per his will, the elect won't do anything "wrong" because they have already been chosen by God?

 

[Missourian]

Isn't the other thing is since God is infallible and everything is per his will, the elect won't do anything "wrong" because they have already been chosen by God?

That depends on what you believe.

I'll tell you what I believe.

I believe that certain facets of predestination theology apply to all those who came before the life, crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus, and all those since who were denied knowledge of the gift of salvation. That God may choose to elect those he chooses despite not being born again in Christ. Not presuming to know the mind of God, I wouldn't even speculate on the criteria of that calling.

But those with knowledge of the First or Second Covenant have free will to reject the call.

Further, from God's non-linear existence, all things from all times in all places are known. From his perspective, everything we will do has already been done.

Only from our limited perspective, due to the human perception limited by the arrow of time, have these events not occurred...yet...

And this is a Biblical fact...

Isaiah 10:46 -

" I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.’."

So, what is predestination from God's perspective can still be viewed as free-will from our perspective. We still make our own choices, but as the past is fixed for us as permanent and immutable, all things are like that for God.

 

[martybegan]

That depends on what you believe.

I'll tell you what I believe.

I believe that predestination applies to all those who came before the life, crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus, and all those since who were denied knowledge of the gift of salvation.

But those with knowledge have free will to reject the call.

But, from God's non-linear existence, all things from all times in all places are known. From his perspective, everything we will do has already been done.

Only from our limited perspective, due to the human perception limited by the arrow of time, have these events not occurred...yet...

And this is a Biblical fact...

Isaiah 10:46 -

" I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.’."

So, what is predestination from God's perspective can still be viewed as free-will from our perspective. We still make our own choices, but as the past is fixed for us as permanent and immutable, all things are like that for God.

And that's why metaphysics and theology give me a headache, lol.

 

[DGS49]

One of the plagues of the Catholic Church (and there are many) is the people who were sent to Catholic grade school only, and were never educated in "adult" Catholicism. They go through life retaining the principles that are taught to children, but didn't stick around long enough to find out how things really work, theologically speaking.

It is as though a young man got his moral grounding by watching Popeye and Mighty Mouse cartoons, then goes though life pissed off that you can't just beat the shit out of your adversaries. There is nothing magical of course about Catholic high schools - you can get stuck in a bad one (as the OP did, apparently) - but my religious education by the Christian Brothers has stayed with me since 1967.

The older I get, the more clear it becomes to me that faith is a CHOICE. It is not something that God grants to people. You look at the world and wonder how to make sense of it, but there is no logical thread that explains what we see on a daily basis. The (Western) world would be a much better place if we were all believing Christians, Jews, and possibly Mormons. I choose to be a Roman Catholic.

Islam is a pox on humanity and should be eradicated. Atheism is for fools and egomaniacs.

 

[Missourian]

And that's why metaphysics and theology give me a headache, lol.

Yeah, me too.

The Why's aren't nearly as important as the What's.


John 14:6

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Matthew 19: 17-19

If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

He said to him, “Which ones?”

And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”


Deuteronomy 6:5

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.


Matthew 22:37-40

And Jesus said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

 

[g5000]

And you think Trump should burn in Hell.

Not that he should. He will.

But he won't burn. I mentioned in this topic what my father thought hell is, and it sounds worse than burning.

 

[g5000]

I think every above average intelligence war fighter eventually has this insight. And not just with the army of the Technocrat... That soldier on the other side can also believes he is fighting for truth, justice and the (insert country, religion or ideology here) way, just like you.

You think "they're just brainwashed". Which brings up the next uncomfortable question. Am I brainwashed? There's a rabbit hole for ya. You come the other side either with a reason to continue, or a reason not to.

I never said they are brainwashed. I said they are just trying to put food on the table. That's a far cry from brainwashed.

In other words, they are no different than we are.

In autocracies, technocracies, and dictatorships, the people at the top suck up all the resources of the country and leave nothing for the people, and so the only option to feed one's family is to join the military.

That was definitely the case in Hussein's Iraq.

 

[g5000]

Yeah, me too.

The Why's aren't nearly as important as the What's.


John 14:6

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Matthew 19: 17-19

If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

He said to him, “Which ones?”

And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”


Deuteronomy 6:5

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.


Matthew 22:37-40

And Jesus said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

You don't find it even a little sacrilegious Trump peddles a Bible he has never read and gleefully violates every day to the credulous rubes in a naked cash grab?

If the Democrats had an internet porn star endorse their candidate, you don't think every MAGA would be bleeding from every opening in their bodies?

You like Bible quotes? Okay.

But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13


For those who guide this people are leading them astray; And those who are guided by them are brought to confusion. Isaiah 9:16

 

[g5000]

How do you reconcile all this hatred and disgust with the Golden Rule, Love thy neighbor as thyself?

Because this is exactly how I feel about liberals and Rinos. I'm not supposed to hate them, but I do.

I've actually been considering giving up this addiction I have to political debate. I've been in politics since I was 15 years old. I come from a very political family who have worked for conservative causes for decades.

Like a lot of people, I am a much different person in real life than I am on the internet. There is something very corrupting about anonymity.

Would you believe I have founded two faith-based non-profits? Not just non-profit. I pay all the overhead out of my own pocket so that every nickel of our donors' money goes to the people to whom we aid.

I would challenge any of these hateful MAGAs to look any one of these people in the eye and call them lazy and shiftless.

That's what they call people on government aid.

Again, sheep and goats. Reading the topics on here, MAGAs are undoubtedly the goats.

Every single one of the hundreds of people we have helped work their asses off.

These charities grew well beyond my wildest expectations, and the tragedy I discovered was that we still could not meet all the need in our community, not even combined with all the local churches and other charities with whom we coordinated.

And no one did due diligence like I do. I was unmatched on that score.

We have had to turn people away because we don't have enough resources, and let me tell you, that just crushes your soul when you have to tell someone they didn't make the cut.

Charity triage sucks.

 

[Missourian]

And that's why metaphysics and theology give me a headache, lol.

Yeah, me too.

The Why's aren't nearly as important as the What's.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Matthew 19: 17-19

If you would enter eternal life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

You don't find it even a little sacrilegious Trump peddles a Bible he has never read and gleefully violates every day to the credulous rubes in a naked cash grab?

If the Democrats had an internet porn star endorse their candidate, you don't think every MAGA would be bleeding from every opening in their bodies?

You like Bible quotes? Okay.

But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13


For those who guide this people are leading them astray; And those who are guided by them are brought to confusion. Isaiah 9:16

Solomon and David wouldn't have passed your "worthiness" test either.

Yet the line of David gave us Jesus.