Why do conservatives support immigration and trade restrictions?

[Dovahkiin]

This is a good thing, since "balancing the budget" is lunacy anyways.

And I bet you're the type who liked to ride a see-saw with only one person. Balance is a good thing.

No, it's really not.

What am I supposed to glean from that chart, exactly?

When the governments "balances the budget" the private sector suffers.

 

[The Rabbi]

The basic value of conservatism is free movement of labor and capital. People are free to offer their labor to employers, employers are free to hire whom they want, consumers are free to buy what they want and sellers are free to sell what they want.
Given that why do conservatives support immigration and trade restrictions when those things are the antithesis of basic conservatives values?

----------------------------------- I think , hope that Conservatism is being redefined . I've said it before and sounds like Trump is saying it now . Conservatism may be redefined to mean America and Americans First Rabbi !!

America First is not conservatism but fascism.

Bullshit. It's common sense. Why should any American place the welfare of foreigners over his own?

"It's common sense" generally means you've lost the debate.
Why should anyone favor "Americans" over others?

 

[TemplarKormac]

Free movement means free movement, regardless of borders.

And there is your problem. That mindset already exists in liberalism. And I'm surprised to see you making such assertions.

 

[The Rabbi]

The basic value of conservatism is free movement of labor and capital. People are free to offer their labor to employers, employers are free to hire whom they want, consumers are free to buy what they want and sellers are free to sell what they want.
Given that why do conservatives support immigration and trade restrictions when those things are the antithesis of basic conservatives values?

Because immigration is changing the lives of Americans, that's why.

Immigrants are lowering our wages in this country, they are taking American jobs that Americans should have, they are changing us to a bilingual country because they come here without knowing the language and expect us to cater to them instead of the other way around. They are earning American dollars here and sending it back over the border to spend over there.

Wages are a supply and demand process. The lower the supply and higher the demand, prices go up. The higher the supply and lower demand, prices go down.

We can't increase our wages when we have an endless supply of workers coming into this country.

Immigrants are "lowering wages" in the range of less then a dollar.
Immigrants are filling jobs that businesses can't fill from the domestic labor poor. This includes many high skilled jobs.
They don't expect us to know the language. It's nice to know spanish though, for employment reasons.
So what if they earn dollars?
Prices have gone down in regards to wages if we use that example thanks to capital taking over labor.

Total fucking bullshit. Employers could easily fill them if they raised the wages they paid or they were willing to pay for training. Employers always prefer the cheaper course of action, so of course they claim they have to import labor.

So do you support tariffs on foreign made steel, computer chips, and other inputs to production? Because whether you are talking about labor or talking about material the arguments are the same.

 

[Dr Grump]

Oh? What's wrong with American exceptionalism?

There hasn't been American exceptionalism for some time. The Japanese make better cars, the Koreans better computers. You have Apple, but even their stuff is manufactured overseas. You do have the pharmaceutical drug trade, but as you overcharge significantly for a lot of the drugs you encourage imitations that are a lot cheaper...even more so when the patent runs out.

 

[The Rabbi]

Free movement means free movement, regardless of borders.

And there is your problem. That mindset already exists in liberalism. And I'm surprised to see you making such assertions.

Liberalism is the old term for what is today conservatism. Milton Friedman called himself a liberal.
Are you in favor of all restraints on trade or only some?

 

[The Rabbi]

Oh? What's wrong with American exceptionalism?

There hasn't been American exceptionalism for some time. The Japanese make better cars, the Koreans better computers. You have Apple, but even their stuff is manufactured overseas. You do have the pharmaceutical drug trade, but as you overcharge significantly for a lot of the drugs you encourage imitations that are a lot cheaper...even more so when the patent runs out.

American exceptionalism does not refer to cars, TVs or computers. This is your first problem.

 

[TemplarKormac]

This is a good thing, since "balancing the budget" is lunacy anyways.

And I bet you're the type who liked to ride a see-saw with only one person. Balance is a good thing.

No, it's really not.

What am I supposed to glean from that chart, exactly?

When the governments "balances the budget" the private sector suffers.

http://www.bis.org/publ/othp16.pdf

 

[Dr Grump]

Oh? What's wrong with American exceptionalism?

There hasn't been American exceptionalism for some time. The Japanese make better cars, the Koreans better computers. You have Apple, but even their stuff is manufactured overseas. You do have the pharmaceutical drug trade, but as you overcharge significantly for a lot of the drugs you encourage imitations that are a lot cheaper...even more so when the patent runs out.

American exceptionalism does not refer to cars, TVs or computers. This is your first problem.

They are an offshoot of American exceptionalism....

 

[bripat9643]

This is a good thing, since "balancing the budget" is lunacy anyways.

And I bet you're the type who liked to ride a see-saw with only one person. Balance is a good thing.

No, it's really not.

What the hell is a "private sector balance?"

Your chart is meaningless.

 

[The Rabbi]

Oh? What's wrong with American exceptionalism?

There hasn't been American exceptionalism for some time. The Japanese make better cars, the Koreans better computers. You have Apple, but even their stuff is manufactured overseas. You do have the pharmaceutical drug trade, but as you overcharge significantly for a lot of the drugs you encourage imitations that are a lot cheaper...even more so when the patent runs out.

American exceptionalism does not refer to cars, TVs or computers. This is your first problem.

They are an offshoot of American exceptionalism....

Thank you for agreeing with me and admitting your understanding was wrong.

 

[bripat9643]

What is wrong with protectionism?

Ask american exporters...

What do we export to China and Mexico?

 

[Dovahkiin]

This is a good thing, since "balancing the budget" is lunacy anyways.

And I bet you're the type who liked to ride a see-saw with only one person. Balance is a good thing.

No, it's really not.

What the hell is a "private sector balance?"

Your chart is meaningless.

Flow-of-funds and sectoral balances

 

[TemplarKormac]

Are you in favor of all restraints on trade or only some?

Some, not all. But you're willing to remove all of the restrictions, am I wrong? The term "liberal" in the dictionary can be defined as the absence of restraint. This is what you're proposing, no?

 

[bripat9643]

The basic value of conservatism is free movement of labor and capital. People are free to offer their labor to employers, employers are free to hire whom they want, consumers are free to buy what they want and sellers are free to sell what they want.
Given that why do conservatives support immigration and trade restrictions when those things are the antithesis of basic conservatives values?

When did opening borders to unlimited immigration ever have anything to do with conservatism? That may benefit the immigrants, but it doesn't benefit us. Labor should be free to move within the country, but not into the country.

Free movement of labor and capital. Which part of that is confusing to you? Free movement means free movement, regardless of borders.

Nothing is confusing me. Where you are confused is your belief that somehow Americans benefit by importing cheap labor from overseas. We don't.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

The basic value of conservatism is free movement of labor and capital. People are free to offer their labor to employers, employers are free to hire whom they want, consumers are free to buy what they want and sellers are free to sell what they want.
Given that why do conservatives support immigration and trade restrictions when those things are the antithesis of basic conservatives values?

Because immigration is changing the lives of Americans, that's why.

Immigrants are lowering our wages in this country, they are taking American jobs that Americans should have, they are changing us to a bilingual country because they come here without knowing the language and expect us to cater to them instead of the other way around. They are earning American dollars here and sending it back over the border to spend over there.

Wages are a supply and demand process. The lower the supply and higher the demand, prices go up. The higher the supply and lower demand, prices go down.

We can't increase our wages when we have an endless supply of workers coming into this country.

They arent doing any of those things.
The reason this is an issue is because we have the worst economy since WW2. If businesses were being formed, expanding, and hiring at normal rates no one would notice immigration.

They aren't doing any of those things? So what you're telling me is that when I went to vote in the primary, I wasn't handed an English/Spanish ballot? All the signs on the tables and doors were written in English only? You mean to tell me I don't have to press 1 to speak to a representative in our language? None of that is happening?

Yes, they are keeping our wages lower because employers can hire them over us because they are willing to work for less money. Without them, employers that couldn't' find American employees would have to make a better offer to attract workers. I see it in my industry daily.

They are not sending our money back over the border? What do you think work Visas are?

I didnt see any Spanish language notices the last time I voted.
Employers cannot hire illegals over legal citizens.
If you do not support employers' rights to hire whomever they want at whatever wage they can agree on then you are not a conservative. You are a statist.

No, employers DO hire illegals over American citizens, just not legally. They do hire foreigners first because their wage is too low for an American to accept. And it will stay low as long as we have open borders and work Visas to take those jobs keeping them at low pay.

Conservatism is about Americans first--not foreigners first. Liberalism is about foreigners first.

And if you don't see Spanish ballots and signs all over the place at your polls, get ready, because it's spreading across America like a cancer. You may be the last to get hit, but it's coming very soon.

 

[The Rabbi]

The basic value of conservatism is free movement of labor and capital. People are free to offer their labor to employers, employers are free to hire whom they want, consumers are free to buy what they want and sellers are free to sell what they want.
Given that why do conservatives support immigration and trade restrictions when those things are the antithesis of basic conservatives values?

When did opening borders to unlimited immigration ever have anything to do with conservatism? That may benefit the immigrants, but it doesn't benefit us. Labor should be free to move within the country, but not into the country.

Free movement of labor and capital. Which part of that is confusing to you? Free movement means free movement, regardless of borders.

Nothing is confusing me. Where you are confused is your belief that somehow Americans benefit by importing cheap labor from overseas. We don't.

Do Americans benefit by importing cheap TVs, cheap steel, or cheap anything else?

 

[pismoe]

The basic value of conservatism is free movement of labor and capital. People are free to offer their labor to employers, employers are free to hire whom they want, consumers are free to buy what they want and sellers are free to sell what they want.
Given that why do conservatives support immigration and trade restrictions when those things are the antithesis of basic conservatives values?

----------------------------------- I think , hope that Conservatism is being redefined . I've said it before and sounds like Trump is saying it now . Conservatism may be redefined to mean America and Americans First Rabbi !!

America First is not conservatism but fascism.

Bullshit. It's common sense. Why should any American place the welfare of foreigners over his own?

"It's common sense" generally means you've lost the debate.
Why should anyone favor "Americans" over others?

------------------------------- same reason I favor Christians over other religions Ras 1 example Rabbi !!

 

[bripat9643]

This is a good thing, since "balancing the budget" is lunacy anyways.

And I bet you're the type who liked to ride a see-saw with only one person. Balance is a good thing.

No, it's really not.

What the hell is a "private sector balance?"

Your chart is meaningless.

Flow-of-funds and sectoral balances

What the hell is that supposed to mean? What "sectors" balanced against what other sectors?

You're spewing abracadabra.

 

[Dr Grump]

Thank you for agreeing with me and admitting your understanding was wrong.

Thank you for admitting you needed to make your post because you found it too hard to join the dots and needed an explanation. You're welcome.