Why Did You Leave Christianity Behind?

[Brynmr]

Another example from this ugly Christian puke.

Dear Brynmr
How does your "ugly" statement about koshergrl follow the Buddhist teachings of practicing equal wisdom and compassion for all beings?

If it conflicts with practicing the "right speech" in Buddhism is it because of not having the "right understanding" of KG or not the "right effort or mindfulness"

Would you consider saying something with no compassion but with contempt a "breach" of buddhist standards or teachings.

Is it "ignorance" if you claim to be aware of what Buddhism teaches .

What is YOUR term for not following Buddhism perfectly . can we use that concept in place of "sin" where you may not have broken divine laws not given in Buddhism, but didn't you just breach the principle of "right speech" by projecting personal contempt instead of speaking with selfless compassion?

Ugly is ugly.

Definition of ugly

a : offensive to the sight : hideous
b : offensive or unpleasant to any sense

 

[tycho1572]

I'll also say I sometimes meet people who are 'church people'. They're often the rudest and nastiest people I encounter.

While I've encountered really nasty, and rude church goers( theres no denying they exist), I've met the same kind of scumbags who weren't. I'm not sure that Christianity itself is responsible for this conduct. There are just a lot of people out there who don't live virtuous lives. Even taking up the Hebrew faith doesn't strengthen their resolve to live virtuously. Like many things, some people just try to use it as a crutch because they are hobbled from thier lack of virtue. And Christian, or not we all know a cripple when we see one.

I have respect for anyone who can respect others for their beliefs and opinions. I've befriended, and respect, many who don't always agree with me.

I'm often brutally honest. It's why some at work think I'm mean.

 

[LittleNipper]

The judgemental aspect of the Christian religion always bothered me. You know that 'you are a bad person and must repent for your terrible sins'. I was too young to even have sins and I certainly didn't consider myself a bad person.

Also the creator god idea never made sense. The idea that because there's an order in the universe there must be an orderer. Makes no sense.

You are a "good" person. You never lied --- EVER! You never stole --- EVER! You never cheated --- EVER! You never wanted something someone else had --- EVER! You never talked back to your parents --- EVER! You never wished anyone was dead (including yourself) --- EVER! You never cursed or used foul language --- EVER! You never not done something that you should have --- EVER!

If you even messed up on just one of these points, you are not a horrible person; however, you are not a good person ----- at least not good enough. And by breaking just one of the above (among others I've not listed) you failed and are not "good" enough. That is why we ALL need Jesus the Messiah/Christ.

 

[Toro]

Many Americans grew up steeped in Christian culture. Went to church events. Celebrated the holidays. Even took part in the rituals.

Then... Many have an awakening, or change of heart if you will. And ultimately walk away; or reject the Christian religion out right. In the end, there are probably as many reasons as there are people...

What was yours?

I never left Christianity behind. I just don't go to church. It's boring.

Religion is a man-made construct. You don't have to be religious to believe in God or accept Jesus Christ as your savior.

I used to take my mother-in-law to church when she would visit us. She was a hardcore Catholic, and she turned my wife off religion when my wife was young because of it. So my wife wouldn't go to church with her mother.

But I never had a church-going upbringing, so I didn't mind. I would take my mother-in-law to church while my wife stayed home.

It was soooooooo boring. Church is the only thing that makes me feel bored and good at the same time.

I'm a Protestant, and it was mildly amusing to see all the rituals of Catholicism. I wouldn't participate.

My best religious experiences was taking my wife's mother to the Catholic Church in the French Quarter of New Orleans, and visiting the Vatican. St. Paul's in London is great, too.

And if you want an awesome experience, visit the Capuchin church crypt in Rome. Google it. You won't be disappointed.

 

[Vastator]

The judgemental aspect of the Christian religion always bothered me. You know that 'you are a bad person and must repent for your terrible sins'. I was too young to even have sins and I certainly didn't consider myself a bad person.

Also the creator god idea never made sense. The idea that because there's an order in the universe there must be an orderer. Makes no sense.

You are a "good" person. You never lied --- EVER! You never stole --- EVER! You never cheated --- EVER! You never wanted something someone else had --- EVER! You never talked back to your parents --- EVER! You never wished anyone was dead (including yourself) --- EVER! You never cursed or used foul language --- EVER! You never not done something that you should have --- EVER!

If you even messed up on just one of these points, you are not a horrible person; however, you are not a good person ----- at least not good enough. And by breaking just one of the above (among others I've not listed) you failed and are not "good" enough. That is why we ALL need Jesus the Messiah/Christ.

All of the things you listed are simply transgressions against men. By breaking one you've failed at what? Following the rules of the men around you? Okay... It's probably not virtuous, and can certainly damage your reputation, and name among men; I get that. But the you jump to the need for a Hebrew deity. Where does this "need" come into play.

 

[BreezeWood]

The judgemental aspect of the Christian religion always bothered me. You know that 'you are a bad person and must repent for your terrible sins'. I was too young to even have sins and I certainly didn't consider myself a bad person.

Also the creator god idea never made sense. The idea that because there's an order in the universe there must be an orderer. Makes no sense.

You are a "good" person. You never lied --- EVER! You never stole --- EVER! You never cheated --- EVER! You never wanted something someone else had --- EVER! You never talked back to your parents --- EVER! You never wished anyone was dead (including yourself) --- EVER! You never cursed or used foul language --- EVER! You never not done something that you should have --- EVER!

If you even messed up on just one of these points, you are not a horrible person; however, you are not a good person ----- at least not good enough. And by breaking just one of the above (among others I've not listed) you failed and are not "good" enough. That is why we ALL need Jesus the Messiah/Christ.

.

That is why we ALL need Jesus the Messiah/Christ.

you need that because you either are without reason or have nothing better to read than a 4th century bible that is a political document disguised as a religion.

what you really need is to strap up your boots and live your own life.

 

[Brynmr]

The judgemental aspect of the Christian religion always bothered me. You know that 'you are a bad person and must repent for your terrible sins'. I was too young to even have sins and I certainly didn't consider myself a bad person.

Also the creator god idea never made sense. The idea that because there's an order in the universe there must be an orderer. Makes no sense.

You are a "good" person. You never lied --- EVER! You never stole --- EVER! You never cheated --- EVER! You never wanted something someone else had --- EVER! You never talked back to your parents --- EVER! You never wished anyone was dead (including yourself) --- EVER! You never cursed or used foul language --- EVER! You never not done something that you should have --- EVER!

If you even messed up on just one of these points, you are not a horrible person; however, you are not a good person ----- at least not good enough. And by breaking just one of the above (among others I've not listed) you failed and are not "good" enough. That is why we ALL need Jesus the Messiah/Christ.

Wow, I'm so glad I wasn't raised like you were to have such opinions.

 

[Vastator]

The judgemental aspect of the Christian religion always bothered me. You know that 'you are a bad person and must repent for your terrible sins'. I was too young to even have sins and I certainly didn't consider myself a bad person.

Also the creator god idea never made sense. The idea that because there's an order in the universe there must be an orderer. Makes no sense.

You are a "good" person. You never lied --- EVER! You never stole --- EVER! You never cheated --- EVER! You never wanted something someone else had --- EVER! You never talked back to your parents --- EVER! You never wished anyone was dead (including yourself) --- EVER! You never cursed or used foul language --- EVER! You never not done something that you should have --- EVER!

If you even messed up on just one of these points, you are not a horrible person; however, you are not a good person ----- at least not good enough. And by breaking just one of the above (among others I've not listed) you failed and are not "good" enough. That is why we ALL need Jesus the Messiah/Christ.

Wow, I'm so glad I wasn't raised like you were to have such opinions.

It does seem like a guilt driven cult. No offense, but it does. The guilt they want you to feel, and "share" with them acts as a control device.

 

[koshergrl]

I'll also say I sometimes meet people who are 'church people'. They're often the rudest and nastiest people I encounter.

but then i see bulkshit like this...

Bullshit?

I take it you don't like something I said.

One thing you should ask yourself. What is a Christian? I have no idea what a church person is. One of Christs disciples asked Him how people would know they were Christians. Jesus said they would know you by your love. He that does not have love does not have the Father. It's that simple. Anyone can claim to be a Christian. Doesn't mean anything. Their actions are what's important. Wouldn't you agree?

"Church person" is a derisive term for Christian. More hate.

 

[Brynmr]

Wow, I'm so glad I wasn't raised like you were to have such opinions.

It does seem like a guilt driven cult. No offense, but it does. The guilt they want you to feel, and "share" with them acts as a control device.

Yeah really. We all stumble and fall but good people are good because of good intentions. Bad people are people wishing harm and taking delight in the suffering of others.

 

[Brynmr]

I'll also say I sometimes meet people who are 'church people'. They're often the rudest and nastiest people I encounter.

but then i see bulkshit like this...

Bullshit?

I take it you don't like something I said.

One thing you should ask yourself. What is a Christian? I have no idea what a church person is. One of Christs disciples asked Him how people would know they were Christians. Jesus said they would know you by your love. He that does not have love does not have the Father. It's that simple. Anyone can claim to be a Christian. Doesn't mean anything. Their actions are what's important. Wouldn't you agree?

"Church person" is a derisive term for Christian. More hate.

A church person is the tail the religious dogma wags.

 

[emilynghiem]

Many Americans grew up steeped in Christian culture. Went to church events. Celebrated the holidays. Even took part in the rituals.

Then... Many have an awakening, or change of heart if you will. And ultimately walk away; or reject the Christian religion out right. In the end, there are probably as many reasons as there are people...

What was yours?

There is no such thing as a former Christian. Anyone who claims to have left the faith was never saved in the first place. When someone accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior, there is a fundamental change in them. "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."

Dear RWNJ:
I have met very good friends, 2 or 3 in particular I would use as good examples, who used to be part of a practicing Christian community, and learned the culture traditions and Bible, but then decided they were more NONTHEIST and related more to the SECULAR natural laws.

As long as they don't REJECT the concept of God and Christ, but are just leaving that culture and going to secular, I find they can still be neighbors in Christ but just choose a different path of expressing universal laws, using science and secular terms and not necessarily relating to the religious symbolism and traditional ways of teaching.

I kinda did the opposite. I have always been on a secular path, and then when the meaning of God Jesus and the Bible came to me I then learned to speak and interpret THAT language for the process of peace and justice going on in the world.

So I see it as different "languages" for the laws. Buddhism also has its language and many of my "nontheist" friends relate to wisdom explained in those terms where the religious symbolism doesn't get in the way.

What is unique and central/universal to all humanity in Christianity is what Jesus symbolizes as the fulfilllment and embodiment of "divine justice" reconciling God's laws and man's laws as one. Christianity has the key symbols for teaching this process. Buddhism teaches some of the spiritual mechanics involved, the nuts and bolts of what the human mind and awareness goes through to fulfill this process.

I see the spirit of Christ Jesus as Restorative Justice that fulfills and unites all paths as one, though our language culture and traditions remain distinct and diverse as different tribes under one Lord or law that governs them all.

People may "switch" from Muslim to Christian or Buddhist because they relate to that language or tribal culture, and are meant to identify and associate with that community or tribal branch. But all branches are part of one tree, one family where Christ Jesus joins us all in the end.

 

[emilynghiem]

I'll also say I sometimes meet people who are 'church people'. They're often the rudest and nastiest people I encounter.

but then i see bulkshit like this...

Bullshit?

I take it you don't like something I said.

One thing you should ask yourself. What is a Christian? I have no idea what a church person is. One of Christs disciples asked Him how people would know they were Christians. Jesus said they would know you by your love. He that does not have love does not have the Father. It's that simple. Anyone can claim to be a Christian. Doesn't mean anything. Their actions are what's important. Wouldn't you agree?

"Church person" is a derisive term for Christian. More hate.

A church person is the tail the religious dogma wags.

Dear Brynmr the Church is the equivalent of the Sangha. this is the community or body of PEOPLE.

So if PEOPLE follow blindly, yes, the PEOPLE can be like lemmings following whatever dogma they are fed.

But if the PEOPLE share knowledge to enlighten and liberate one another, then all can follow the path of truth and wisdom, and wisdom brings life not death, and freedom by truth which sets us free, not enslavement by blindly following dogma.

It depends on the spirit of the church or "the people" if the people are liberated or where they are in their spiritual development.

One way to tell how developed people are: do we consider the church/people/humanity to include EVERYONE? Or do we only focus on our own local church, sangha, or circle and consider other people to be outside and treated differently?

How inclusive are we? Where do we draw lines between "them vs. us" and start excluding some people from the same rights and freedoms we believe in for "all humanity."

 

[emilynghiem]

I'll also say I sometimes meet people who are 'church people'. They're often the rudest and nastiest people I encounter.

but then i see bulkshit like this...

Dear koshergrl
There is a term "portmanteau" for blending two words into one.
Thank you for this creative new term!
"Bulkshit" is hilarious, and I wouldn't mind if it caught on. And eventually made its way into the dictionary. Ingenious, thank you!!!

 

[emilynghiem]

Wow, I'm so glad I wasn't raised like you were to have such opinions.

It does seem like a guilt driven cult. No offense, but it does. The guilt they want you to feel, and "share" with them acts as a control device.

Yeah really. We all stumble and fall but good people are good because of good intentions. Bad people are people wishing harm and taking delight in the suffering of others.

Dear Brynmr Does your system of
good and bad account for people who are "mentally or criminally ill" such as possessed by demonic sickness, and this obsession causes them to be addicted to torturing killing raping or terrorizing others to feed the demons? Some of these people can actually be CURED of the demonic invasion that acts like a foreign virus "feeding off its host."

So underneath is a normal person if they could remove the virus and regain the free will use of their mind and conscience that has been effectively "hijacked" by spiritual invading forces.

If someone has no control over these impulses making them sick, do you hold them accountable for their evil thoughts intents words and actions? Wouldn't you hold off judgment until after they are cured, before you judge that person?

Example: look up the Son of Sam who was later cured of his occult-induced killer madness, and now tries to reach out to victims rights groups to help track down serial killers and stop them before they harm others. He knows he cannot ever repair or repay for the lives he tortured and killed, but he wants to share his knowledge of healing and cure to prevent the NEXT sick person from killing when they could get help in time to contain or to cure their sickness. He knows this know, and wants to prevent sick people by getting them help so they don't hurt or kill anyone else as he did!

 

[emilynghiem]

The judgemental aspect of the Christian religion always bothered me. You know that 'you are a bad person and must repent for your terrible sins'. I was too young to even have sins and I certainly didn't consider myself a bad person.

Yeah, I hear ya. The idea that you born "evil", or a "sinner" at birth; was one of many objections I had.

No one is born evil. They are born in sin, meaning they have a sinful nature. Since God demands perfection, no one is good enough to enter into Heaven. The only way to qualify is to repent, ask God to forgive you, and surrender yourself to Christ. It doesn't matter how many good works you do. It doesn't matter how kind or loving you are. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. In your case, it's the sin of pride. YOU don't think you're a bad person. Maybe you're not. That's not the point. You are a sinner, born in sin.

Dear RWNJ I agree with most of what you say though I use secular terms to explain it to secular audiences.

I would clarify that our good works DO matter, it's not like they don't have a good effect.

But the TRUE judge of someone's character is not so much "how much good they do" because then we would judge the millionaire who gives away millions different from the poor widow who only has two cents to give.

The TRUE test is HOW MUCH WE FORGIVE.

So those who suffer greater injustice but are able to forgive it, ie ask God's help to do so, receive greater blessings in place of giving that huge burden up to God.

Those who don't suffer as much, they still receive their reward in this life, so the good and bad we do still counts. It's just on a different level than the bigger debts and bigger blessings on a spiritual level with forgiveness and redemption that may transcend one lifetime and affect multiple generations. That level of justice can't necessarily be measured in earthly terms. both man's justice and God's justice count in their respective realms.
We may be forgiven in God's eyes but still owe debts to our neighbor in the real world; and must fulfill both laws as Christ governs both the laws of God and of man as universal justice reconciling the two.

 

[emilynghiem]

My parents weren't religious, but did teach me certain values that have served me well over the years. Values that I heard again when I decided to attend my first church service.

I never stepped foot in a church until I was 15. I've been to several, of different denominations, over the next 9 years.

I stopped going after a few months of attending a baptist church because I didn't agree with a sermon.

I saw a level of weirdness and hypocrisy that turned me off from all the churches I attended. It just wasn't for me.

Hi tycho1572
You remind me how , as a Constitutionalist , I can barely tolerate most of the garbage going on with my own D party and half the govt which violates basic Constituional principles and ethics. But things won't get corrected if the people who want consistent standards stay away and leave it to the wolves to run things into the ground.

If you can find one person or one group that teaches and lives by the standards and meaning you believe in, I encourage you to support that group.

I didn't fit in with one UU church that was too cliquish with the liberal agenda and rejecting anything challenging that but I did go back to an older UU fellowship that welcomed both old school and new school and are closer to inclusion of diversity I believe in.

Keep searching and at the very least you will collect a circle of friends around you that is your own unique fellowship . that's enough . it doesn't have to be a big group to be legit, it will be whatever is natural for you. Every person and path is different . the UU are all over the map, if you want to check that out. But same trick applies, if one group doesn't click for you, try another as each is different depending on the unique chemistry between the members . even within the same denomination, so don't give up. Took me 20 years, so I hope you fare better than I did trying to fit in somewhere long-term !

Thanks. I appreciate the kind words.

I didn't start attending different churches because I was looking for friends, or anything else. I did it out of curiosity.

I can see and understand the importance of church for some people. The ones I attended just didn't rise to the level of respect I was taught by my parents.

The last sermon I heard was about how women should submit to their husbands. There was previous talk about them wearing makeup.
That's when I decided I was done.

tycho1572
It's funny how one sermon can speak to some people and totally turn others away.
One of my friends decided Joel Olsteen "must be going to hell" because he wears 1000 dollar
shoes, and Jesus would never do that. But two of my friends watch Joel Olsteen and get a lot out of his messages to stay positive even when the world is material and jealous and tempts you to be like that.

The theme of a lot of his talks is the abundance mentality and not falling into scarcity mentality that is fear based. This is understood by some people, but totally missed by others who see Olsteen as materialistic and "misteaching that God rewards us by material wealth"!

Whatever helps people to overcome
* fear
* unforgiveness
* ill will or rejection of or division from others
Whatever person or messenger it takes to support and encourage people to grow past the barriers or flaws that are limiting them, everyone responds to a different way, like how we all have different tastes in music or humor or art.

I hope you find the venue or avenue that lends the inspiration or support you need in your path in life, wherever it leads you.

There are VERY interesting intellectual people even on this board. So I encourage you to explore both the people you relate to , AND the ones you most disagree with the strongest, and you will find where you have strengths and weaknesses, and what you will be challenged to work through in life.

Working through your given relationships, then checking this against what biases you project from your past, this will provide a blueprint. And everyone and every relationship you encounter in life will trigger these points of growth to come up, either for good or bad, and the challenge is to make the best out of all that you encounter.

I find I learn even more the harder I have to struggle with someone to reach an understanding. So even the adversity is a key to growth in understanding and expanding our perception of what's going on in the world and with other people.

Take care, keep posting, and I look forward to reading more of your insights and ideas on here!

Yours truly,
Emily

 

[emilynghiem]

The judgemental aspect of the Christian religion always bothered me. You know that 'you are a bad person and must repent for your terrible sins'. I was too young to even have sins and I certainly didn't consider myself a bad person.

Yeah, I hear ya. The idea that you born "evil", or a "sinner" at birth; was one of many objections I had.

No one is born evil. They are born in sin, meaning they have a sinful nature. Since God demands perfection, no one is good enough to enter into Heaven. The only way to qualify is to repent, ask God to forgive you, and surrender yourself to Christ. It doesn't matter how many good works you do. It doesn't matter how kind or loving you are. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. In your case, it's the sin of pride. YOU don't think you're a bad person. Maybe you're not. That's not the point. You are a sinner, born in sin.

I disagree with almost everything you've said in this post. And I don't mean to offend you when I say that.

No offense taken. But it's offending God that you should be worried about.

RWNJ sometimes it takes a neighbor in Christ pointing out a rebuke where we are conflicting with scriptural teachings so we receive correction where we would otherwise offend God's laws.

If we offend a child of God that is like a millstone hung around our necks. But it is a wise man who respects rebuke. As neighbors in Christ we are called to help each other not to stumble. If we follow Matthew 18:15-20 then any trespass between us can be brought forward for correction so we stay true to God and each other as neighbors in Christ.

 

[emilynghiem]

This has been explained. You're free however to refute the points I made which you have not done. Otherwise, believe what you wish.

Dear Brynmr
1. you said there is no equivalent of Christian sin in Buddhism.
2. I pointed out that projecting contempt onto koshergrl by calling her ugly puke
was in spirit "against" or "breaching" the Buddhist teachings of "right speech" and practicing selfless compassion toward all beings.

3. Do you agree that when your words or actions "fall short" of what is Taught in Buddhism, this is the equivalent of when Christians teach that nobody is able to follow laws perfectly? We sin or fall short by omission by negligence or willful ignorance or disobedience, and thus require forgiveness or correction to resolve the breach?

4. You mention "ignorance."

Would you agree there is "willful ignorance"

is "willful" ignorance an equivalent term for what Christians mean by conscience choice to "sin"???

Thank you Brynmr
In short, I contest your contention there is no equivalent in Buddhism of the concept of sin.

How about willful ignorance?
Or what do you call your conscious choice to say something "ugly" about another person on here that shows less than "selfless compassion" toward another being?

Don't you think that was less than "right speech" to say something negative that projects ill will instead of compassion?

What do you call the cause of that action?

 

[emilynghiem]

Many Americans grew up steeped in Christian culture. Went to church events. Celebrated the holidays. Even took part in the rituals.

Then... Many have an awakening, or change of heart if you will. And ultimately walk away; or reject the Christian religion out right. In the end, there are probably as many reasons as there are people...

What was yours?

Ten simple Commandments was too tough.

danielpalos
I'd summarize them in three
1. love God with all our heart mind and soul (for secular gentiles, God means universal good will, truth wisdom or the whole universe/creation or spirit of life)
2. love our neighbors as ourselves
3. love one another as Jesus loves us ie joining the love of God and love of man as one. by the universal spirit and love of Justice with Mercy that Jesus and the Holy Spirit represent, which fulfills the laws of man and the laws of God as one in Christ or by Conscience made whole and perfect.

Yes that is too much and nobody can love all people equally Thus we call on God's love and grace to do this for us where we are limited in what we can do.